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| sticking the tines to a sub-legal 45" muskie and then pushing it under the ice is not harvest, Sled. it's killing and wanton waste. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | lambeau - 7/22/2011 11:38 AM
sticking the tines to a sub-legal 45" muskie and then pushing it under the ice is not harvest, Sled. it's killing and wanton waste.
again, i ask the question ... is there documentation of this being an out-of-control situation and severely depleting the stocking efforts? and if-so where because although i've heard it (presented like you just did) by conjecture.
i've also known musky guides/junkies that hang live pike from the cleats of their boats and treating them less than pleasantly when catching them incidently.
so, is this a topic of who "thinks" the other is worse? or what?? who is the tallest midget in this argument???
Edited by jonnysled 7/22/2011 12:11 PM
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | sled,
Explain to me the logic that it is illegal to spear a Northern Pike in open water in the middle of November. Getting caught doing so can get one a hefty fine. But, add a couple of inches of ice and suddenly its OK. How do you explain or defend that?
And why can you spear a Northern and not a Walleye? One can keep six Walleyes when angling and only three Northerns. And yet one can spear a Northern when there is ice, but not a Walleye. They are both game fish. How can you defend that?
I believe that spearing any game fish is barbaric because, by being "game fish", they are considered more "valuable" than rough fish such as carp. By "game" fish, they simply deserve better treatment.
I have fished and hunted all my life (since I was 5 anyway). I have shot many deer and caught and cleaned more than a few Northern Pike. I see nothing wrong with keeping a few Northerns for a meal. But I do see a problem with spearing game fish of any type. Game fish deserve fair play and should not be killed just because they happen to wander under a hole in the ice where someone is sitting with a spear. And I don't care if it is Walleyes, Muskies, or Northern Pike, they should all be treated with the same protection 12 months of the year.
My opinion.
Edited by Herb_b 7/22/2011 12:37 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Herb_b - 7/22/2011 12:35 PM
sled,
Explain to me the logic that it is illegal to spear a Northern Pike in open water in the middle of November. Getting caught doing so can get one a hefty fine. But, add a couple of inches of ice and suddenly its OK. How do you explain or defend that?
And why can you spear a Northern and not a Walleye? One can keep six Walleyes when angling and only three Northerns. And yet one can spear a Northern when there is ice, but not a Walleye. They are both game fish. How can you defend that?
I believe that spearing any game fish is barbaric because, by being "game fish", they are considered more "valuable" than rough fish such as carp. By "game" fish, they simply deserve better treatment.
I have fished and hunted all my life (since I was 5 anyway). I have shot many deer and caught and cleaned more than a few Northern Pike. I see nothing wrong with keeping a few Northerns for a meal. But I do see a problem with spearing game fish of any type. Game fish deserve fair play and should not be killed just because they happen to wander under a hole in the ice where someone is sitting with a spear. And I don't care if it is Walleyes, Muskies, or Northern Pike, they should all be treated with the same protection 12 months of the year.
My opinion.
1. try open-water spearing and let me know how you do Herb
2. try coaxing a walleye to a decoy Herb
3. 3 vs. 6 = ask your dnr fisheries biologist that's managing the biomass Herb
4. filet knife vs. spear = what was your question Herb? do fish have a soul or something i'm missing?
5. "I see nothing wrong with keeping a few Northerns for a meal. But I do see a problem with spearing game fish of any type" ... Huh?? Herb
6. "Game fish deserve fair play and should not be killed just because they happen to wander under a hole in the ice where someone is sitting with a spear" ... what do you do when that 12-pointer with the 20" inside spread wanders underneath your tree-stand Herb?
any more questions for me? |
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Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | I'm just extremely disappointed at HOW this has been passed. Public input shot this thing down twice, both a republican and a democrat governor heard a loud enough voice to veto it two years in a row. What a shady way to get your way. Throw it onto a bill somewhere in the back that which the public cannot voice an opinion on this time. How easy was it to just hide this in there? This is like a boxer that loses a fight to the same guy twice, but then somehow gets a 3rd fight and wins because the judges are paid off.
What a bad manner to do business in. The name of the person that re-reintroduced this in an attempt to push this through should be made known. I'd like to know what they like to be bought off with next year to put the ban back on. |
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| jonnysled - 7/22/2011 12:42 PM
what do you do when that 12-pointer with the 20" inside spread wanders underneath your tree-stand Herb?
I usually crap my pants thus making any chance at bagging the animal pretty much impossible. |
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| Is no one going to mention how peeed off they are,that our government was shut down. No compromise,no giving ground! And the first day the politicians are together, THIS is what they secretly pass!!?? This is what is SOO important that it had to be pushed through as part of a f#%^*!g deal!!
I am peeed! That is why I brought this to the attention of the media. CARE 11 seemed interested in the ridiculousness of this. We will have to see if Ingbretsen (sp?) and Carlson feel any heat come re election time.
Kevin, I think that you mentioned a list of resort owners on Cass at our last meeting? I would love to get that list so I can email all of them. I would like them to know that,because of their representatives my family and I will no longer be staying at Cass. We go 7-10 times a year.
Of course, I will cc their representatives as well.
There are 10,000 lakes in this state. Only 120 something have Muskies. The rest are open to spearing.
Hopefully MI will take Cass off the list of lakes open to fish in the international .
Joe |
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| JMO here, and maybe its going to sound a tad vengeful, but its somewhat relieving that there's all this drama finally emerging out of MN. Gets a little sickening/frustrating when you read magazines and internet articles for darn near a decade constantly reminding you how terrible your state is at growing big fish, releasing them, spearing fish, stocking the best strains, etc. I don't wish this (or that) on anyone, and I know alot of folks are passionate and frustrated, but the fact that this has gone around... and is now coming around, is kinda funny. Enjoy the limelight, MN. It gets hot up on stage. |
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| "Sled...i'm also one who believes that there's a middle-ground for things to co-exist" Mike
So let's add options #1 and #B to this perfectly reasonable observation..
OPTION #1:
Given the situation, think about this.....
1) Spearers are almost totally locals. People who already live there who are killing the best of what the waters have to offer. These folks bring no new dollars to yer town.
2) Fishermen (and women) who are NOT locals. We bring in money, and lots of it, per my last bar bill. Anyway, we fish and release for others who follow and spend yet more money.
Inform the owners of the local bars and motels and bait shops of yer concerns. Ask them to pass the concerns to local legislators and PUSH the good guy up the creek.
OPTION #B:
Give up. There's alreay too many people chasing the fish of my dreams. And frankly, I've become bored with chasing muskies. Let's allow the muskie fishery go to hell such that I'm back to almost never seeing yet alone hooking a big muskie. That would be ok, for a generation or five. I can handle evolution.
There, two choices, take a pick. |
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| "Politicians running the fisheries programs, under pressure from SI groups...even ours...is inmates running the asylum. Bad idea." - Steve
Look around brother, that is the current situation. The monkeys behind the glass, the one throwing $hit from their arses?, are in charge. And we're paying them to thow $hit and dress very, very well. How did we ever get here? We got here because the average American is a total dumb-$hit.
A nation of idiots; teenagers drunk and playing with bottle rockets.
Folks get what they deserve. |
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| Joe,
The last time I posted the list online I had two letters to the editor written about me and also they had a meeting talking about it. They brought up the idea of taking out a front page ad out in the Bemidji Pioneer slandering me. The list is out there and maybe someone else can post it in this thread.
Sled,
Studies and pictures are out there. Studies referring to the destruction of hammer handle pike due to over harvesting the large ones, and lake specific (Bemidji) spearing data are two that are sticking out in my mind. Lake Bemidji study 52% of all pike taken were taken by spear by 4% of the angling hours that entire year. In a ten year span the average pike size went from 4.6lbs to 1.8lbs. I am pretty sure on the numbers that I listed but would have to look on my other computer to be certain. Just got off the water and kinda tired.
You want pictures...I got them. Also John Underhill has all of them and maybe some more. I catch speared muskies EVERY year on the area lakes that I fish. These are the ones that are lucky enough to survive. There are two hotbeds in the state that speared muskies surface more than anywhere else (Miltona and Bemidji). With Cass being opened up muskies will be intentionally speared. I attended a CLIFS (Cass Lake Initiative for Spearing) meeting where they openly talked about intentionally spearing muskies after the ban was placed on Cass.
Could there be a middle ground? No. The Darkhouse is against slot limits, catch and release on muskies, higher fines for speared muskies, and any regulations put in place by the MN DNR to protect large pike/muskies.
The MN Muskie and Pike Alliance wanted to work with the Darkhouse on this specific case. Our main goal was to protect the large pike and muskies in Cass. Spearing on Cass is not the biggest issue here. Harvesting the largest pike is the issue. Large pike are vulnerable under the ice and without some type of slot protection the big fish will fall.
If you have any questions regarding this issue you can call or email. Gotta get a few hours of sleep 4:30am is right around the corner.
Thanks,
Kevin |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm sure your claims have merit ... it's different than the people i know who enjoy the sport but not unlike some on the other side of the argument who do similar negative things to make the name worse than it should be. sounds like pocket politics is the way of the future in Minnesota, so turnabout is fair play i guess if you have enough money and know the right back door to go into. You could always implement a Conservation Congress and have annual votes (ok, that was a joke ... but a fair one based on how Wisconsin has been treated by our own and what Ranger calls "fishermen who are not locals").
how about the guys who exploit brood-stock lakes on the musky side of the equation? has that come into the discussion during these debates?
also, what is considered a "trophy" pike on Cass? ... 45-50? or 35-40?
i've always considered Saskatchewan to be the location of Trophy Pike ...
every time you politic and sensationalize regulation, restriction or banning you're sending a message to people who love to do that sort of thing. i hope we don't end up running ourselves off of our own water and out of our own woods by the time it's all over ... |
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| jonnysled - 7/24/2011 8:26 AM
i'm sure your claims have merit ... it's different than the people i know who enjoy the sport but not unlike some on the other side of the argument who do similar negative things to make the name worse than it should be. sounds like pocket politics is the way of the future in Minnesota, so turnabout is fair play i guess if you have enough money and know the right back door to go into. You could always implement a Conservation Congress and have annual votes (ok, that was a joke ... but a fair one based on how Wisconsin has been treated by our own and what Ranger calls "fishermen who are not locals").
how about the guys who exploit brood-stock lakes on the musky side of the equation? has that come into the discussion during these debates?
also, what is considered a "trophy" pike on Cass? ... 45-50? or 35-40?
i've always considered Saskatchewan to be the location of Trophy Pike ...
every time you politic and sensationalize regulation, restriction or banning you're sending a message to people who love to do that sort of thing. i hope we don't end up running ourselves off of our own water and out of our own woods by the time it's all over ...
Not sure how guys that fish brood lakes comes into this conversation. If you are implying that this is something that I do you are mistaken. I have fished three brood lakes this year for a total of 8 times.
A trophy pike in Minnesota IMO would be a 35-40. It is not Saskatchewan but pike can grow big in MN when protected. Put a young kid on a 40in pike and see what happens. Can you get the same effect from ten 2lb pike probably not.
Regulations are put into effect by the DNR after they seek input from the public. People in MN are not happy with the pike fishing and want to be able to catch bigger fish.
So what do you do when .8 of 1% of all anglers, MN Darkhouse, want less regulation regarding pike and the ability to take large pike? Do you accomodate the vast majority of anglers in the state or do you bow down to the 14,000 spearers resulting in more hammer-handle factories? Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. I am sure your friends, the ones that just enjoy the sport, only take the small pike so there is really nothing to worry about.
Kevin Cochran |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i implied nothing ... the implication is that when one special interest wants to force another special interest group of sportsmen either out of their sport altogether or force limits to stay off of selected lakes then expect the same to be asked on behalf of your own interests. you know, the glass house corellary.
35 - 40" pike are sure fun to catch but not trophies by most definitions. i thought you were proposing the protection of trophies? ... now i understand more about why your new pike protection argument isn't getting any traction. is there commentary from fisheries biologists that show the maximum growth rates for pike given the biomass and introduction of other predators to the system? i'd imagine there is a limit and that a 45 + (true trophy) would be a freak out of a Northern Midwestern U.S. lake where they have to share space with muskies.
slots for anglers and especially ice-fishermen are something that makes complete sense and i still have no idea how or why they aren't more popular in the northern states but kicking a group of sportsmen out of their sport to suit you is going to be a tough one.
when will the pike-hunter magazines, pikefirst t-shirts, coffee mugs, hats, outings and auctions get started?? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | the shawano lake hammerhandle factory would be an interesting one to study ... you couldn't find a decent pike if you wanted to. add a higher level predator (muskies) and whammo, big muskies and big pike!!! big (35-40") not trophies ... but a nice change.
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| "1. try open-water spearing and let me know how you do Herb"
During the turn of the century they filled wagons full of open water speared Pike to haul all over the state to sell.
Every year I get photos of Muskies speared, In the 1980's the Muskies on Cass were in trouble and the Pike were in worse shape; The ban is the only thing different on Cass than the other comparable lakes in the area and its also the only lake of its kind with its popularity that stocks Zero fish.
Pike have a huge factor in the quality of the entire fishery. All fish in the system.
Creel surveys show spearing harvests an average of 15% of all Pike summer and winter harvest combined; some waters as much as 51% of the total number of Pike as well as 51% of the total pounds harvested.
Is it too much to ask 1% of the stakeholders that take 10 to 50% of the harvest depending on the water to follow rules? the answer is yes.
Edited by Muskiefool 7/24/2011 4:53 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Muskiefool - 7/24/2011 4:48 PM
"1. try open-water spearing and let me know how you do Herb"
During the turn of the century they filled wagons full of open water speared Pike to haul all over the state to sell.
Every year I get photos of Muskies speared, In the 1980's the Muskies on Cass were in trouble and the Pike were in worse shape; The ban is the only thing different on Cass than the other comparable lakes in the area and its also the only lake of its kind with its popularity that stocks Zero fish.
Pike have a huge factor in the quality of the entire fishery. All fish in the system.
Creel surveys show spearing harvests an average of 15% of all Pike summer and winter harvest combined; some waters as much as 51% of the total number of Pike as well as 51% of the total pounds harvested.
Is it too much to ask 1% of the stakeholders that take 10 to 50% of the harvest depending on the water to follow rules? the answer is yes.
- during the turn of the century ... ok
- again, asking one group for a ban using your argument, be prepared to hold your own with appropriate bans of your own waters where fish are killed by direct and delayed mortality for a wide number of reasons. i could use your turn of the century argument to say that musky fishermen are your own worst enemy and a whole lot bigger threat than the darkhouse pike spearers.
- creel surveys are done to establish harvest limits correct? so, that being said, with harvest limits set ... who cares what % one group is to the next? what point does that make?
- spearers who follow the rules follow the rules ... anyone who breaks them (hook and line, spearers, ice fisherman) have penalties that are held up by law too
what is "wrong" with legal harvest of a managed and renuable resource?? in this case naturally spawning pike managed by creel with limits set and penalties for poaching (limits and other species). note that nowhere here did i say musky.
i understand your argument for people breaking the law by spearing muskies and then the move of this being back-room politics. if you keep it focused on those two wrongs i'd say you'll get support from a broader range of people, but playing the all or nothing and the trophy pike card waters down your position.
it's a shame Greenpeace is so busy in International Waters when they are needed to control the barbaric harvest here in the Midwest.
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Sled you sure seem to know a lot about what goes on in MN for not living here.
Over a decade ago the DNR started using special regulations to see if they could change lakes with large numbers of small pike into lakes with a more balanced population. The important thing was to get a healthier balance of pike, but the end result is also more trophy size fish (IMO MN trophy pike are 40"+, not uncommon Red, Leech, Mille Lacs, Vermillion, Basswood, Cass, Winne). So I guess you could say managing for trophies in regards to pike is also managing for a more balanced population. 2 Birds for one stone.
The DNR took public input and had muskie and pike anlgers help come up with plans and choose lakes to try this on. The result in a nutshell is that the lakes have responded very well in as little as ten years.
The idea that this is just a spearer vs. muskie angler conflict is unfortunate, but undrerstandable when you read the juvenille comments made by both camps on the internet.
The fact of the matter is that the MN public pushed for better pike fishing in MN in the 90's. With public input hearings that happened.
There are many muskie anglers who have been inovolved in the pike changes, and they are not jumping on the bandwagon now regarding this issue.
Cass lake is considered a trophy pike lake. 40" + fish are caught there every summer.
The pike population has changed since the spearing ban took place. The avg. size increased and population shifted from more smaller fish to a better balance of large and small pike.
MNDNR develop bag and size regs based on the impact of #'s of fish killed. This is done with all game fish. On certain lakes special regs are needed, be it walleye, panfish or pike to keep populations in balance.
Adding spearing to Cass would increase # of killed pike. The DNR wanted to implement a special reg to help lessen the impact of adding pressure to pike.
The MDHA would not accept lifting the ban with any new reg. They claim the regs don't work and that they don't want to kill big pike anyway. Which makes no sense, if they don't want to kill big pike then special regs shouldn't matter to them. They also have all the data open to them on the success of the special regs but think that it's made up lies. There is no dealing or compromising with them anymore, which is a lose lose for all of MN.
This issue is about pike, but unfortunately has become a playground gang battle.
As a muskie fishermen I don't care if Cass opens up to spearing, if they put regs on to lessen the increased pressure on Pike.
Anyway sled, this is a pike issue on Cass, and now all over MN if they lessen the number of pike lakes with special regs. Many of the muskie guys out there have been working on pike population changes since the mid 90's. So the idea that all of us are all of the sudden concerned with pike is false.
I just wish people would stop the stupid statements about "sticking it to the spearers", and now we are going to "fight fire with fire" that I see on several different forums now.
What we really need to be cocnerned about is getting more control to the DNR so this crap can't happen anymore.
JS
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Location: minocqua, wi. |
we have a small home/cabin in Minocqua, Wisconsin and our residence home in New Prague, MN. ... we both grew up on water ... for me it wa Cedar Lake in Scott County, MN. and have fished and speared there for many years. I'm engaged to a woman there and we spend split time between both places based on kids' needs and pay taxes in both Minnesota and Wisconsin. She has a MN. drivers license and i have a WI. drivers license and we enjoy multi-species spring, summer, fall and winter past-times from the history of both of our families including on the water and on the ice. We're conservationists who harvest and follow the laws but don't go to extremes either way when we see people who do other than us within the law. Both of us buy hunting and fishing licenses in both states and Canada spending even more time in Montreal it seems than in the States.
and just like with our government we protect our rights when others (gov't or special interest) try to take our rights away from us and come in and tell us how to live our lives.
thanks for your concern JS
you guys have mucked this one up so bad you'll never get support.
Edited by jonnysled 7/24/2011 8:24 PM
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My bad sled, I thought were purely an out of stater, which isn't meant in a bad way, most people who don't live here wouldn't know the history of this development.
Anyway, my main point was this is a pike issue for many of us, and not just a new thing.
JS |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 7/24/2011 8:20 PM
My bad sled, I thought were purely an out of stater, which isn't meant in a bad way, most people who don't live here wouldn't know the history of this development.
Anyway, my main point was this is a pike issue for many of us, and not just a new thing.
JS
sucks when that stuff leaks out doesn't it ... comes out so easily somebody might take it for your true honest feelings.
out-of-staters ... lol ... indeed |
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Well for an in-stater you are kind of mis-informed.
Shouldn't be to hard to see how I could have made that mistake.
As far as true feelings, guess you'll never know, but you can have fun pretending.
JS |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm still tryin' to understand how a 40" pike is considered a trophy??? but, it you say you're on a pike agenda and have been since the 90's ... why wait til now to inform everyone. you have no trouble on everything else?? i see the alliance has recruited 49 members ... is that since the early 90's too?? please inform us ...
you really want big pike in Cass ... take away their competition.
mis-informed my a$$ ... |
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Location: Bemidji, Lake Vermilion | Hey JS, your input is appreciated. Its a pike issue. Most guys I know are not "muskie guys" but "esox guys" who appreciate both.
Sled - no reason to remove the "competition" for pike in Cass as they have coexisted naturally with muskies for what is likely thousands of years.
This is really a lot more about cry baby syndrome and poor government in action, protecting large pike (take all you want up to 26 to 28 to maybe even 30in, let the rest grow), and handcuffing the MN DNR who, like them or not for whatever reasons you want, have done a pretty darn good job with MN fisheries for all species. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | thrax_johnson - 7/24/2011 9:56 PM
Hey JS, your input is appreciated. Its a pike issue. Most guys I know are not "muskie guys" but "esox guys" who appreciate both.
Sled - no reason to remove the "competition" for pike in Cass as they have coexisted naturally with muskies for what is likely thousands of years.
This is really a lot more about cry baby syndrome and poor government in action, protecting large pike (take all you want up to 26 to 28 to maybe even 30in, let the rest grow), and handcuffing the MN DNR who, like them or not for whatever reasons you want, have done a pretty darn good job with MN fisheries for all species.
Halleluyah!!
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Well Sled when you make statements about how it's only an issue now, and comment on how muskie guys are all of the sudden pike guys than you are misinformed.
Sorry to break it to you, but lots of folks who fish muskies have been active in fisheries issues of all sorts for a long, long time, and don't only fish or care about muskies.
Pike management has been an issue since the early 90's. It's being sensationalized now by the actions the MNDHA have taken.
JS
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i was responding to Kevin Cochran ...
doubt he was working on the Minnesota Pike thing in the 90's but i may be mis-informed.
i believe it was you who coined it a "Pike Issue" ... i was being led to believe it was an incedental Musky Spearing Issue which should be covered by the law. maybe time to get with the other 48 guys and come up with a consistent story before taking it out to the boards??
your anti's sound disjointed |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | jonnysled - 7/24/2011 7:44 PM
you really want big pike in Cass ... take away their competition.
No need in my book.
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| Nice Hyena-Musky!! That aint no 35-40"er! You should show Cochran your spots! |
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| it's unhelpful to exaggerate. no one started out proposing "pushing others out of their sport", Sled...in fact, the leaders in this effort on the angling side bent over backwards trying to find a compromise that everyone could live with, only to repeatedly be burned and scammed. on the other hand the rhetoric that suggests spearing on Cass will ruin the muskies fishing is simply untrue, though it will kill some muskies and it will affect the pike size structure as the numbers from Bemidji demonstrate. keep in mind that the spearing ban on Cass and other lakes allowed for the pursuit of trophy muskie/pike angling on a certain few lakes and also still accomodated spearing on many many many other lakes. it's only been recently when those attempts to compromise failed and the other side has consistently shown a preference for pursuing win-lose outcomes, that thoughts have turned to using similar win-lose responses. personally, i think there's room for spearing and protected trophy angling to co-exist, but i completely understand the reasons for wanting to switch to more of a scorched-earth approach. there are risks and potential consequences, but i get where it's coming from. imho, the leadership of the spearing advocacy groups is betraying the "silent majority" of the sport with an extremist all-or-nothing agenda...and sadly it may lead to the demise of the sport when the much larger angling interest groups get sufficiently activated to respond in kind.
Edited by lambeau 7/25/2011 10:49 AM
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