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Posts: 2024
| I've never heard of the behavior you're describing. If you have a source where that information came from, I'd love to read it. Biologists consider muskellunge broadcast spawners: swim along shorelines and deposit eggs and milt without care for the young. The trade-off is that a relatively minimal amount of energy is allocated to reproducing, aside from the productions of eggs and sperm. The fitness advantage conferred to esocids using broadcast spawning as a reproductive strategy is that the adults can continue to grow larger and keep producing more and more eggs to account for mortality associated with not parenting the young. The behaviour you're describing is that of parental care (chasing predators, keeping the spawning site clean, etc.).
I'm not doubting your observations of aggressive fish in the shallows (I've seen it), but I don't believe it has anything to do with protection of young during the spawning period. My theory, they may be hungry after having invested so much energy into producing eggs and sperm and could be taking advantage of aggregating centrarchids. Smaller fish have higher metabolisms and need to be in the shallows where the water is warmer and the habitats are more productive which is needed to fuel their metabolisms. Larger fish don't have this thermal constraint and can slink off into deeper, cooler water and eat larger prey. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Sean, I didn't read this out of a book somewhere, it's merely theory in response to your original question I'm basing my experience off of. There's no doubt the males will stick around in the 'spawning areas' for a couple weeks after the females drop and retreat to the depths to recover, but what's the point if not to protect? I believe you misunderstood my reference to carp and keeping them away - I was not suggesting they "keep an area clean" like a bass uses its tail to sweep the beds, but I'm theorizing moreso an instinct to defend areas to prevent anthing negative from happening.
Surely hunger will initiate strikes from the remaining males, but how do you explain the numbers of panfish injured on the surface and the muskies darting aggressively through the schools in two feet of water constantly throughout the day. One would think if this was a feeding frenzy, you could get bit on anything you throw - that wasn't the case.
Ever had a musky hit your top water only to pop it out of the water without getting hooked (like a dolphin noses a beachball). This wasn't a hungry pack of wolves in this shallow bay musky are notorious for spawning in, this was a group of post spawn fish doing something reactive to the enormous amounts of forage suddenly populating their area, hence my theorizing. I'm also not douting your knowledge or facts, but I am curious why post spawners recognizable by their scars on their heads (noses) and backs remain in a small area one could return to the next day or three and draw a follow from? We're talking post spawn here, so I imagine the shoreline cruising of milting without care may not have been a factor any longer - do you agree? What I'm most interested in is a biologists perspective as to the purpose of the males sticking around after the females deposit their eggs... Or is it merely 'in case' a secondary spawn occurs from females who postponed laying their eggs?
My opinions, observations, what have you, aren't gospel by anyones means, but it strives to the initial point of this thread - to get the wheels upstairs turning. I digress, perhaps if "protection" isn't an accurate description, perhaps "competative" is the correct terminology? Assumably there is competition during the spawn, and perhaps afterwards - you tell us as I know I am at least interested in hearing a biologists perspective.
In either case, these musky weren't out there to consume everything they were attacking, more so acting like a couple of dogs nipping at each other, so to speak. One way or another, there's a lesson to be learned here. Shed some more light 
Edited by Sam Ubl 4/29/2011 12:11 PM
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Sam Ubl - 4/29/2011 11:58 AM
Sean, I didn't read this out of a book somewhere, it's merely theory in response to your original question I'm basing my experience off of. There's no doubt the males will stick around in the 'spawning areas' for a couple weeks after the females drop and retreat to the depths to recover, but what's the point if not to protect?
The same reason males of our species hang out at bars at 2 am, hoping that the last known spawning female may come in and be his.
If there is food there and the water temps are in their comfort range the males will hang around, but it has nothing to do with protecting the spawning area.
Edited by nwild 4/29/2011 12:09 PM
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Norm - point taken. So we've decided my theory was farse as an explanation and I'm fine with that - let's learn, but then again, I can't agree that we men hang at bars waiting on the last available girl looking to mate walking in, meanwhile punching out everyone that gets near us, big or little... I can agree that the first bit, though. So, back to square one - why were these males so aggressive towards any and everything in that shallow bay, in particular, panfish? Is it the big man syndrome, who beats any and everyone in his path up?
I suppose some may settle for "it was what it was", but then again, those may be the ones who throw dbl 10's all day long because someone said they were great on TV or the web... You don't become a better fisherman be settling, you become good when you innately reflect on the why's behind your success (why,when and where) after a couple high fives and a photo.
We can assume with the consistent cold spring we've had this year in the upper midwest, at least in Wisconsin, spawning will be delayed some measurable be the water temps barely excedding the mid-40 degree mark as of yet. So how do we anticipate plan A, plan B and plan C? Based on the idea that the spawn will extend into the season this year, I'm assuming females will be frequenting the shallows more so than seasons of old to drop their eggs, making for more sightings and hook ups IMO. Suppose my next thoughts would be, plan A) Go bigger than traditional spring tackle, plan B) downsize, plan C) Move out and check the breaks.
Edited by Sam Ubl 4/29/2011 12:23 PM
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | The aggressive behavior toward the panfish can be explained quite simply by the fact that the panfish are food.
Hitting them with closed mouths and seemingly little interest is not a spring only phenomenon. It happens spring, summer, and fall, and both sexes do it. It is quite frustrating when the big females do it and dash all of one's CPR hopes.
Why do they do it, the same reason they follow, porpoise, sun themselves and make our hearts beat at three times the normal rate. Because they are muskies and its what they do. I know that explains very little, but the only ones that know for sure are the fish, and none of them that I have asked have told me.
Edited by nwild 4/29/2011 12:23 PM
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Good progression of breaking down the phenomenon (if we can call it that). Disorient the forage with huge blows with a closed snout, return to finish the job after the hard part is over, sure, I can understand that, but it still seems a little intense for worn out post spawners who've been through those rigors, but I'm not discounting it. In fact, this particular instance may have proven itself true by one of the two tactics we employed of deadsticking a slammer twitch bait with patience.
"Splash down... twitch twitch twitch... let her float for a full minute or so... repeat" BINGO!! Technique did score us a couple fish. So, is this the final answer?
I understand your humor, Norm, but I'm trying to think like a fish here. Here's a BST as to why musky will porpoise; a quick expultion of air after feeding in the depths? I rarely see fish porpois in the shallows, it's most always in some depth. Airblatters MAY have something to do with feeding deep, and perhaps porpoising provides some relief? Another theory. Sunning themselves may have to do with similarity. Can we agree musky will seek out warmer water to increase their metabolism, and in part, increase their digestion? May be a theory behind why the lazy follows in the summertime shallows - in innate reaction to follow the prey, but not room to eat or maybe too much discomfort yet? |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | I'll add, if it's not the intent to discuss and reveal theory on this site, I suppose I missed the point of creating a user account. Assumedly, nearly 2,000 views of this thread and only 36 posts reveal some are interested in hearing more and getting something to think about. |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Sam I love the fact you can take a shot or two and keep posting. Guys like you keep this site interesting. It also keeps people comming back and checking out the subjects. I see the same crazy stuff going on each spring in the shallows. I believe most of the agression moves is just the males all wound up looking for some love. Even the bigger females will bolt around and come back. They just don't like the fact that a boat is close. They stir up the water with a bunch of bursts of speed and turns but usually will come rite back to that general area. It seems like the males are all over the areas but "with bar time close" they are always looking for one last girl to rub up against.
This spring I believe we will see more big fish shallow and lots of active males. Every Opener is a little different and this one will be "a weird one" like you posted. If the wind is on the ligh side we will enjoy all the muskies we will see shallow. Getting them to eat is the trick. My tactics will be targeting the agressive males early then try for a few of the big girls as the heat of the afternoon sets in.
Keep on posting my friend. Its good content and gets responces. After all, thats what this site is for.
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Posts: 267
| Sam, thanks for your thought provoking posts. Keep 'em coming. |
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Posts: 1168
| Not all fish spawn at the same time. If spawning "turns off" fish then why not go after the ones that are not doing their thing?
I'm stoked about the cold weather we've been having. It could be challenging but it also opens many, many doors for a little more of the outside the box, putting BST's into action type of mindset. It will be different than last year but last year was the exception, not the rule. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Too many people are slaves of water temp! Go with the flow. If the fish aren't shallow, go elsewhere. If they aren't deep, then go in between. If they aren't active somewhere but are found there still look elsewhere.
But by all means don't fish any South shores! They are always the coldest. You must fish the north end of lakes.
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Posts: 272
| I need to figure out how to train the fish to hang around their nesting locations by me. Usually its a "spawn and gone" around here.
This spring opener, if I were fishing my historical inland lakes, I'd be targeting current areas...... creek inlets and outlets. Muskies are a river fish, they seem to like that environment and they may be returning to the lake via the creek channel from a spawning marsh or another lake upstream. They'll always hang around creek inlets and outlets anyway, and an increased flow always attracts fish. With the wet, late year we're having, I'd say your best odds are near a "warm" stream entering a cold lake if the fish are post spawn.
Muskies are attracted by increases in current, and with the periods of rain we keep having, that may play in this spring. Either way, creek inlets will provide current and temperature differences.....in addition to all the other things creek inlets/outlets provide at any day throughout the year.
-Eric
Edited by muskie-addict 5/3/2011 7:18 AM
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Posts: 3147
| if there ever was a year to go fish canada trout water on opener this is it!!!
the fish will all still be shallow,could be the best canada opener ever on the clear stuff |
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Posts: 999
| Dennis Radloff hit it on the head tonite at the C&R club meeting stating that this could be one of those rare years that the mega giants will be seen up shallow! Most years their in and out before opener. Could be exciting! |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | I agree with Dennis. The big girls will still be shallow. Also I think there will be a lot of males shallow. Lots of muskies to be had on late Spring openers. I can't wait to set the hook into some ski's........ |
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Posts: 582
| global warming...good one... the biggest myth forced on this earth ever. What we are seeing is a La Nina spring. Nothing more, nothing less. It happens just like this in other La Nina years. The opening will be different that is for sure. I say the spawning will take more time this year. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin |
To : Sam Ubl
Date : 5/3/2011 10:54
PMSubject : Global warming
"It is still called GLOBAL Warming, not Wisconsin warming. In other words, it's an average of GLOBAL temperatures. Have a great day." - Kazmuskie
... Soooo, to anyone else who needs their hand held here, it was meant as a figure of speech to start the thread, so as to NOT BE TAKEN LITERALLY. These kind of PM's I've been getting from climate geeks are really goofy..
What you'll find more and more is that less and less quality posts will hit the boards to avoid the garbage. If you use this site for what it's intended for, don't push away what draws you in, in the first place. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | So how many are straying from the 'in spring, go small' mindset and opting for the 'go big or go home'? If the presence of bigger females making themselves vulnerable proves out, I'm going to plan on upsizing my aresenal assuming these fish will be looking for a bigger, easier meal.. Maybe I'll take that 9" Suick for a walk and break out the Mag Shallow Dawg for its first swim of the season.. I may even Weagle it 
Edited by Sam Ubl 5/4/2011 11:02 AM
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Something to think about.
For those hoping to contact BIG females getting ready to spawn. Why was it frowned upon a few years ago when a certain someone back-doored an earlier musky season north of 10, but it appears everyone is ok with targeting spawning fish south of 10?
I’m just saying.
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Travis, I hear what your saying although I'm not familiar with the past reference you speak of. The direction this topic is going is sure to ignite personal opinions like wildfire, but when I think of spawning fish being harrassed, I think of cherry-picked bass and panfish sitting on beds, not necessarily fish 'going through the motions', especially those 'free love' types like musky. Of course there's the stress factors...
I dunno, think I'm done with the boards for now - time to start fishing |
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Location: Racine, Wi | Travis, I think you'll find more acceptance of this south of Hwy 10 as the natural reproduction is not here like it is in the North of the state. Most of the lakes (at least by me) are reliant upon stocking where as up nort you do get natural reproduction in some of those lakes. I think that's where the up roar came from.
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Location: Victoria,MN | I have been following this thread for a few days, and have found this to be interesting reading material. Food for thought I guess...
Thank You! |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | That’s what I figured Joel. However, isn’t stress on a spawning musky still stress regardless if the spawn is successful or not? Isn’t it thought of as bad to target the fish during spawn because of that stress coupled with the stress of a fight possibly killing the fish? So my point is a dead 50” is a dead 50” regardless if it successfully spawned or not. Whether the fish is stocked or not to me is irrelevant. It takes a long time to grow a large fish regardless if they started out naturally or as a stocked fish.
I am not singling you our Sam. I was going to post this with my initial response to the thread. I am also not necessarily saying I agree, or disagree with targeting the fish during spawn. What I am trying to get across is I feel if you think it is wrong in the north, it should also be wrong in the south. I mean is there truly evidence that all the fish in Southern WI do not reproduce?
To me this is a lot like the 80° water temp deal. It’s bad to do it while you are not facing the circumstances, but when you are faced with the time of 80° water temps you don’t practice what you preach. Too many double standards out there with the angling community.
Sorry to get off topic. Just trying to raise awareness, and for everyone to think about what they are doing. If you are fine with it in the south I feel you better be fine with it in the north. Otherwise you might as well just sign every post with “Do as I say, and not as I do”. If you don't agree with me that's fine as you know what they say about opinions...
I am sure I made all kinds of friends today!  |
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | I hear exactly what you're saying Travis, and to tell you the truth, I'm not sure what kind of impact it may or may not have on spawning fish. I know on Pewaukee in particular, the populations don't seem to have been impacted as far as fishing right off the bat in a cold spring when there potentially is more female contact (fish that is)
Also, looking at the Fox Chain in IL which has no closed season, there seems to be a very good population of fish, and some very nice fish as well. I wonder if the cooler water may lessen the stress on the fish this time of the year orrrrrr if there are potentially harmful impacts to the larger females this time of the year when they are spawning and get caught? Would be interesting to hear some thoughts from those that study them, but I think this may be a topic for a different thread. A viable question though that I'd be interested in hearing more about. |
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Posts: 279
| CiscoKid - 5/4/2011 12:05 PM
That’s what I figured Joel. However, isn’t stress on a spawning musky still stress regardless if the spawn is successful or not? Isn’t it thought of as bad to target the fish during spawn because of that stress coupled with the stress of a fight possibly killing the fish?
First this has been a great read for me at work. Look at Indiana Lake Webster the fish don't have successful spawn but they do go thru the process and this lake is fished very hard during these times yet it has a population of around 6 fish per acre so I don't think all that many fish are dying from it. |
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Location: New Hope MN | Does anyone know if ski's spawn after dark? I hope for their own sake they do. |
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| dtaijo174 - 5/4/2011 3:45 PM
Does anyone know if ski's spawn after dark? I hope for their own sake they do.
I'm guessing if you're on this site, you care for the resource, so I guess we're all treehuggers in that way, but some are hugging a little too tight. . . Would Dtaijo prefer we not fish on the opener?
Catching fish any time of day, night, or season will stress a fish... Tell you what can be done, someone can sign up to count the number of dead musky floating around after the opener and report back so those of you who seem to think catch and proper handle/release of them during the opener is gonna kill them can sleep better at night. Why does it always go "there"? |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Guest - 5/4/2011 4:44 PM
dtaijo174 - 5/4/2011 3:45 PM
Does anyone know if ski's spawn after dark? I hope for their own sake they do.
I'm guessing if you're on this site, you care for the resource, so I guess we're all treehuggers in that way, but some are hugging a little too tight. . . Would Dtaijo prefer we not fish on the opener?
Catching fish any time of day, night, or season will stress a fish... Tell you what can be done, someone can sign up to count the number of dead musky floating around after the opener and report back so those of you who seem to think catch and proper handle/release of them during the opener is gonna kill them can sleep better at night. Why does it always go "there"?
Like I said I won't mention what my thoughts are in terms of if we should or shouldn't fish for them during the spawn. The answer may surprise you.
Again my point is to those that were all against an early season north of highway 10 need to think about this if they don't think it is wrong south of 10. No one remembers the dislike of this happening and wanted him removed from office, and have (which ahppen) it changed back to the "normal" season opener date up there?
As far as using Indiana as an example that it is fine may not be the right arguement, or it may. I would sure think the stocking rate there is much higher than that of southern WI waters. Note I make this statement being uninformed of the stocking practices at either place. Regardless at 6 fish per acre you can afford to lose some fish and not even notice them gone. It's a bit different at say 1 fish per acre or less (not sure what the S. WI waters are at).
Also, not all fish that die float.
I guess some people don't like it when you plays devil's advocate. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Juat a note, Keith is working Tomahawk this week collecting walleye eggs and the walleyes are hitting peak to just past. He sets nets tomorrow for Muskies, and the few females he's had in the 'eye nets so far have been very ready to spawn, dropping all over the place.
It isn't just water temp that gets 'em going. Bet they've been busy already... |
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| cant wait for opener, kinda bummed I have to work Sunday all day, but will be giving her on Saturday. Gonna catch me a pewaukee fitty |
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