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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Yes I understand that U will have to reel in FASTER to get the same IPT but it does not take any more POWER to do that, just more SPEED??????? Maybe Physics is coming into play ?????????? |
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Posts: 309
Location: Elgin IL | I bought this Trinidad 16na and filled the spool with 80# power pro and I thought it was real hard to pull in my Double 10s. Then I removed some line (photo) and casted better and reeled in easier. I actually like my old Trinidad tn12 filled up spool better than this reel. If you going to remove line to make it reel in easy why not just get the smaller lighter Trinidad 12 with a full spool.
Has anybody used the new Trinidad 10 12 or 14TNa
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Posts: 531
| PIKEMASTER - 4/17/2011 9:47 AM
Yes I understand that U will have to reel in FASTER to get the same IPT but it does not take any more POWER to do that, just more SPEED??????? Maybe Physics is coming into play ??????????
In my previous example i showed you must reel twice as fast to achieve the same speed, but the torque needed to reel was half.
Good example of this is a multispeed pedal bike, first gear is super easy to pedal but you must pedal like a mad man to go "fast", this would be the 1/2 spool reel, easily turned with little foward movment.
now start off in a higher gear (full spool reel) you may need only one pedal to move many feet, but your effort to move that distance is much greater.
Making sence? |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | OK When I got a Trinidad 16N 3 years ago I filled it to the top of the spool with line and could not wind the DCG10, so I took off 15% of the line from the spool and the reel was alot more easy to wind. Thanks I'm alway open to discuss theory on reels.
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I can understand the less torque needed with less line. But wouldn't say that it's "easier" at the end of the day to have to reel faster. Personally that makes my wrists/fingers get cramper up more, but not everybody has the same issues physically.
One thing about not filling a spool full is it does affect how well your drag works.
Not sure why, but I'm assuming it's because when the spool is more filled up with line as a fish takes line out it doesn't spin as fast, making your drag work better.
They seem to start smoother and run smoother as well.
JS |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | JS A full spool of line will not spin as fast going off the spool and will build up less friction/heat in/on the drag washers, GOOD POINT. |
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Posts: 531
| Opening another can of worms, the force needed to turn the hanlde would be less, but you are doing more of it, So that in it self like JS stated could wear you out also. Either way you look at it in physics you are doing the same amount of "work"
With that said at the end of the day i can not tell you which one would burn less calories. That is all up to the user, and everyone is different
About the drag, you will have more drag force with a lower spool. Meaning you will not have to have the drag as tight to have the same effect as a full spool. You will have less smoothness than a full spool also. |
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Posts: 209
| I think this thread is the most intellectual discussion ever to hit muskiefirst. Haha. |
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Posts: 358
Location: London, England | Spool size makes a huge difference in practical fishing terms. A Curado 300, with a tiny spool, filled with 80 or 100lb line will barely move a bait at the beginning of the retrieve on a long cast, as the line level will be so low. Easy to retrieve, but you have to work your hand much faster to get the speed. A reel like a ABU 7000 using the same line and casting the same distance will be moving the bait much faster for the same handle turning speed at the beginning of the retrieve and the retrieve speed will be much more consistent from start to finish that with the smaller spooled reel. |
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | Actually, do you want to know what this lengthy discussion proves? It proves like most things in musky fishing... you should continue to do what works best for you and what is most comfortable to you. There is no right or wrong answer. Having someone tell me on the forum by the use of mathematical equation that the baitcaster made by Brand XYZ is the best for reeling in DC10's isn't going to make me want to run out and purchase that reel. I don't care what the gear ratio is and how much line pick-up it has per crank... if it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands and if it doesn't feel comfortable to cast with - I ain't buyin' it. Period. So after all this chatter... do what feels best to you.  |
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Posts: 209
| PSYS - 4/17/2011 4:08 PM
Actually, do you want to know what this lengthy discussion proves? It proves like most things in musky fishing... you should continue to do what works best for you and what is most comfortable to you. There is no right or wrong answer. Having someone tell me on the forum by the use of mathematical equation that the baitcaster made by Brand XYZ is the best for reeling in DC10's isn't going to make me want to run out and purchase that reel. I don't care what the gear ratio is and how much line pick-up it has per crank... if it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands and if it doesn't feel comfortable to cast with - I ain't buyin' it. Period. So after all this chatter... do what feels best to you.
Agreed. Despite all that I've said about torque advantages, the way a reel fits the hand is more important than anything IMO. A friend of mine has a Trinidad 16 DC, and it's got all the power in the world (honestly, it pulls in 13's like 8's), but I still would much rather use my Saltist 30 because its much more comfortable to cast and hold onto. I don't deny that his reel burns in the big blades better, but I'd rather fish with mine anyways. |
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Posts: 531
| PSYS - 4/17/2011 5:08 PM
Actually, do you want to know what this lengthy discussion proves?...I don't care what the gear ratio is and how much line pick-up it has per crank...
This thread has proved one thing (i believe many will agree also) that even if someone "does not care about gear ratio and line pickup" That person will still feel the need to be a contributing member of the conversation about gear ratio and line pickup, even if they have nothing to contribute.
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Posts: 116
| PSYS - 4/17/2011 4:08 PM
Actually, do you want to know what this lengthy discussion proves? It proves like most things in musky fishing... you should continue to do what works best for you and what is most comfortable to you. There is no right or wrong answer. Having someone tell me on the forum by the use of mathematical equation that the baitcaster made by Brand XYZ is the best for reeling in DC10's isn't going to make me want to run out and purchase that reel. I don't care what the gear ratio is and how much line pick-up it has per crank... if it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands and if it doesn't feel comfortable to cast with - I ain't buyin' it. Period. So after all this chatter... do what feels best to you.
amen....just cast the #*^@ thing and don't worry about it |
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Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | If your hand moves 12" each revolution and picks up 30" with a full spool, then with a 3/4 full spool your hand will STILL move 12", BUT the reel will only retrieve around 22" of line. In this situation, you have moved the handle the same, but moved the bait less. Moving the bait less (or slower) requires less effort. I think that's as simple as it gets. |
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Posts: 349
| My take on this (summarizing):
Overall work that needs to be done is affected by inches per crank. Higher IPT means more work to be done. IPT is controlled by the combination of gear ratio and spool size.
Your arm produces the work by turning the handle and by varying the handle length the work can be interpreted differently. Work done is a torque applied by the user in this case and Torque = force on the handle x length of handle. A longer handle requires less force but has a longer cranking circumference. It feels easier to reel with a long power handle but your hand is moving a greater distance. This part really come down to user preferance. Do you want reel easier or a shorter distance?
A lesser factor is internal friction of the reel parts. This is simply affected by the quality of the reel and quality of components used. Internal components are also what contributes to durability of the reel.
The last factor is gear size and that simply affects the durability and the ability of the reel to withstand high force over a long period of time. Best example is a Trinidad. It has a a large spool and high gear ratio requiring lots of work to be done. The extremely long handle makes it feel easy to reel even with the large amount of work being done. The large gears allow this reel to stand up to the abuse it takes. |
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Posts: 116
| a beautiful summary indeed |
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Posts: 70
| excellent post and excellent read
the poster and replyiers are raising important facts
this has shown me that i have been influienced by marketing again
i have a 6500 with a power handle , which will be removed ,
i will look at my other reels
thanks for the eye opener
bob |
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Posts: 127
| I would argue internal friction is a HUGE differentiator in what makes a reel "easier" to use. The more friction in a system, the more work that is required to overcome the friction, thus the less amount of work input that is actually "input" in the gears working (energy "lost" - my old physics professor would kill me for that one - in the form of heat (ie friction)). Flex of the reel also plays a huge roll in reel "ease."
Reels are best viewed, in my opinion, as a system. No one factor can be isolated from reel to reel as the most important or relevant to ease of retrieve (whether the reel being more efficient or the angler having a better mechanical advantage over the reel itself) because so many other variables change as well. IPT, gear ratio, bearings, line capacity, handle type/size, body material, specific gear alloy, machining techniques, tolerances, ect. all vary from reel type to reel type (not to mention individual differences between identical reels). |
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Posts: 531
| RStien321 - 4/18/2011 4:12 PM
I would argue internal friction is a HUGE differentiator in what makes a reel "easier" to use. The more friction in a system, the more work that is required to overcome the friction, thus the less amount of work input that is actually "input" in the gears working (energy "lost" - my old physics professor would kill me for that one - in the form of heat (ie friction)). Flex of the reel also plays a huge roll in reel "ease."
Reels are best viewed, in my opinion, as a system. No one factor can be isolated from reel to reel as the most important or relevant to ease of retrieve (whether the reel being more efficient or the angler having a better mechanical advantage over the reel itself) because so many other variables change as well. IPT, gear ratio, bearings, line capacity, handle type/size, body material, specific gear alloy, machining techniques, tolerances, ect. all vary from reel type to reel type (not to mention individual differences between identical reels).
I think i can speak for most people when we used the word friction is was a generic term used as a blanket to cover all internal forces of a reel, an example would be as a incredible amount of flex on a shaft holding a bearing that would cause a misalignment issue, ultimitly increase in the effort need to provide motion to the system. For the sake of typing and explaining thats why i used the word friction.
I completly agree no two reel would be exactly the same, as you stated. Thats why when i started this thread i was going for stickly for theory in the examples and not trying to say this reel is better at resistance baits... granted i did use specific reels in a table but that was strickly hard numbers i pulled from websights and did basic computs to. I wanted to stay neutral in this discussion and not have a war over brands or models, and i think with being neutral a few people learned a little bit, and not take what people say for granted.
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Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | Friction is virtually eliminated in high end reels. Want to see, grab a reel off the shelf with no line on it and spin the handle. As long as the handle is balanced, the spool will spin and spin, requiring virtually no effort.
As far as which is 'easier' for each fisherman, you have to choose whether you like to reel slow and hard (higher line retrieval reels, i.e. Trinidad) or fast and easy (lower line retrieval reels, i.e. Toro Winch). Personally, I have both types. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | I know alot of Muskie guys that crank down the CAST CONTROL knob on the right side of the reel tight to help with backlashes instead of pulling out more spool brakes, my cast control knob is on the loose side on all my reels so they will have very little resistist/friction from the Cast Control knob, the tighter the Cast Control knob the harder it is to reel in. |
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Posts: 349
| Yes by friction I was referring to the summation of all internal forces that work against you as you reel. It's a much more difficult parameter to measure and comprehend than simple hard data like line retrieval and length of handle. Internal forces are what would explain the difference between an abu C3 and a calcutta TE which have very similar IPT and handle length. It may very well be a huge factor in the work required to move a bait but it is difficult to compute. |
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Posts: 127
| There's a big difference in friction forces with no line, and friction forces with a large load (IE - twin tens). Friction force will increase as the load increases. Little differences in the store can translate into large differences on the water. |
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Posts: 127
| anzomcik - 4/18/2011 3:40 PM
RStien321 - 4/18/2011 4:12 PM
I would argue internal friction is a HUGE differentiator in what makes a reel "easier" to use. The more friction in a system, the more work that is required to overcome the friction, thus the less amount of work input that is actually "input" in the gears working (energy "lost" - my old physics professor would kill me for that one - in the form of heat (ie friction)). Flex of the reel also plays a huge roll in reel "ease."
Reels are best viewed, in my opinion, as a system. No one factor can be isolated from reel to reel as the most important or relevant to ease of retrieve (whether the reel being more efficient or the angler having a better mechanical advantage over the reel itself) because so many other variables change as well. IPT, gear ratio, bearings, line capacity, handle type/size, body material, specific gear alloy, machining techniques, tolerances, ect. all vary from reel type to reel type (not to mention individual differences between identical reels).
I think i can speak for most people when we used the word friction is was a generic term used as a blanket to cover all internal forces of a reel, an example would be as a incredible amount of flex on a shaft holding a bearing that would cause a misalignment issue, ultimitly increase in the effort need to provide motion to the system. For the sake of typing and explaining thats why i used the word friction.
I completly agree no two reel would be exactly the same, as you stated. Thats why when i started this thread i was going for stickly for theory in the examples and not trying to say this reel is better at resistance baits... granted i did use specific reels in a table but that was strickly hard numbers i pulled from websights and did basic computs to. I wanted to stay neutral in this discussion and not have a war over brands or models, and i think with being neutral a few people learned a little bit, and not take what people say for granted.
I agree with your post completely. Lots of good info in here, and a very product/promotion free discussion. |
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Posts: 209
| I'm probably being repetitive, but friction as I had intended it is friction under a load as RStein said. Without pressure on the internal parts of the reel (in the store), all reels feel smooth. When you apply the resistance of burning a double 10, the components of a poorly constructed reel will flex, which introduces more friction to the system. This friction is only present when reeling in hard pulling baits. That's why reeling in a topraider feels the same with basically any reel, but some reels are much better than others for hard pulling baits. That's also why there's a strong correlation between how long a reel lasts and how easily it pulls in the big blades. If it's difficult to reel in the blades, the components are probably flexing, leading to a short life for the reel. If it's easy to pull in big blades, then the components are sturdy and it lasts longer.
And I'll also throw in that I'm glad this stayed away from being extremely product biased, as mentioned. A guy could actually learn something reading this instead of just being subjected to sales pitches. |
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Posts: 1184
Location: Iowa Great Lakes | I have owned alot of reels ver the years and the 2 easiest to reteive DCG's were Shimano Corsair they easiest followed close by the Okuma Iduron neither with power handles. Have used Lunas,Curado, Calcutta B's, Salstist, Toros and none were or are as easy as the other 2 were, they even held up surprisingly well and still have and use the Induron as a spare. No fancy numbers to share just first hand experience and my opinion. |
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Posts: 286
Location: VA | Its like your saying that 1000 hp drag car is going to out pull a 100 hp tractor. Thats just not going to happen. Its all about the gears. Lower gears more torque, the easier a double 10 will come through the water. |
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| My two cents worth
Friction Principles
Friction- is a force on substances in contact with each other that resist motion of the objects or substances relative to each other.
Static Friction - arises between two objects not in motion with respect to each other an example would be a DC-10 laying in the bottom of a pool of water. It increases to counter balance forces that would move the objects up to a certain maximum level of force the bodies will sustain before motion occurs.
Kinetic Friction - arises between to bodies that are in motion with respect to each other as for example the force to pull the DC-10 through the water. Between the DC-10 and the water the Kinetic Friction is usually somewhat lower thus meaning more force is required to set the DC-10 in motion than keeping it in motion.
(Also known as drag)
These friction principles can change if acted on by another force.
(Basic Physics)
For example through a baseball static friction up to the release, kinetic friction as the baseball glides through the air, and the baseball eventually comes to the ground after being acted on by another powerful force called gravity.
Therefore we can interpet friction in many different ways and it can also be used in many different ways in equations also.
Scott M.
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Posts: 791
Location: North Central IL USA | shaley - 4/18/2011 9:13 PM
I have owned alot of reels ver the years and the 2 easiest to reteive DCG's were Shimano Corsair they easiest followed close by the Okuma Iduron
They don't make the Idurons anymore. Is the Akena a suitable replacement? |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 |
They don't make the Idurons anymore. Is the Akena a suitable replacement?
The Akena is a entry level reel, I would wait for the Isis or Cedros, should be out this spring /summer |
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