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Posts: 339
Location: Denmark | sworrall - 2/21/2011 8:30 AM
Imports don't have much to do with our economic troubles right now.
No, but It's a global tread to all western economies on long terms(because of full scale liberalism), mainly that Production and Engineering etc, is being outsourced to India and China. The full effect of this might not be affecting our generations, but those to come.
What will come, I'd rather not think about, hopefully I will be dead by then.
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Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | pepsiboy - 2/21/2011 4:04 PM
i would also add the following
more than 80 % of musky lures dosnt create a single job,the owner build his stuff so what the difference if the bait is made in china or usa?
The difference is that the guy in the US making his baits by himself spends that money in the US, which contributes to other US businesses & adds tax revenue to pay for welfare programs etc.
I can't comment on the baits as I have yet to use the Curly Sues but have wanted to try them. I thought they were going to be at the Michigan show but I thought wrong.
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | I hate to comment on this but there are different sides to this story...
Speaking of greed: In past years my average tax paid to the US gov. on every $1 of profit was almost $0.70! Yes, $0.70 on the dollar of my net profits. I think I am doing my part here feeding the tax man. There is no tax max for a small business BTW. You want to know who has "greed"? The US government! Just to add, when I used to make all of my baits in the USA 6 years ago I almost went bankrupt because I listened to people saying "make it in the USA". I did make them in the USA and nobody bought them including retailers due to the higher wholesale/retail I had to charge. Plus I have yet to find one lure comapny in the USA that has the quality control and can keep up with my order quantities. One company in WI took OVER 1 year to make me only 360 Grunts and every one went to the burn pit thanks to a crappy job on the paint they did. I now use Dutch Fork in PA and he has top quality controls and workmanship but can not do 5000+ a year for me and I have almost 30 lines of lures right now. So, I now make most (not all) overseas and I can finally keep up with demand and with very detailed attention to raw materials and quality control they are top notch baits. I have found that people say one things but when they open their wallet they say a different thing.
In short, the US government needs to dump some of the tax burden off of small companies in the USA or every job will be outsourced soon. To be competitive our government needs to stop the waste, stop funding other countries, dump some or all of the employee taxes businesses have to pay and make our country more competitive vs the rest of the world. It can happen.
JMHO
James |
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| They are both good baits, the Sues are built better though. Being a factory worker, I do like the MADE IN AMERICA part. The 11 inch curly sue definately takes more out of a guy than a mag dawg in a 12 hour day. LOL................... |
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Posts: 552
Location: WI | MuskieMark01 - 2/20/2011 12:43 PM
I've never used curly sues personally, but does anyone feel like there's a noteable difference between the two?
I'd recommend having a few. I fish w/ curly sue's, superD's, and bulldawgs and they all have there differences. It's nice to be able to switch between them when your moving the fish but just not getting them to eat. I don't really think there is a difference in quality either. I had my issues w/ M.I. in the past, but I seems they have things figured out and I've some dawgs go through hell and are still putting fish in the boat. |
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Posts: 209
| raftman - 2/21/2011 8:37 PM
MuskieMark01 - 2/20/2011 12:43 PM
I've never used curly sues personally, but does anyone feel like there's a noteable difference between the two?
I'd recommend having a few. I fish w/ curly sue's, superD's, and bulldawgs and they all have there differences. It's nice to be able to switch between them when your moving the fish but just not getting them to eat. I don't really think there is a difference in quality either. I had my issues w/ M.I. in the past, but I seems they have things figured out and I've some dawgs go through hell and are still putting fish in the boat.
What exactly are superD's? I'm not familiar with the name. |
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Posts: 613
Location: Michigan | Check out http://www.tackleindustries.com/ |
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Location: Iowa Great Lakes | C Wulf - 2/21/2011 7:16 PM
They are both good baits, the Sues are built better though. Being a factory worker, I do like the MADE IN AMERICA part. The 11 inch curly sue definately takes more out of a guy than a mag dawg in a 12 hour day. LOL...................
Yea but your a sissy.... LOL |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Shack Attack - 2/21/2011 9:18 AM
Steve,
No disrespect intended, but it is attitudes like yours that are not helping the economy.
The reason musky lures get mentioned on here and not computers, TV’s etc is because this is a musky fishing website, but I am sure you already know that. This is what guys will talk about and is part of the subject being discussed.
Musky lures ARE a critical economic force to a lot of people and their families. What would happen if the likes of Phantom Lures, Suick, Drifter Tackle and some of the others sent all their products to China? There would be a lot of people out of work and it would be more than just a handful, it would be in the hundreds. Now tell these people that musky lures are not a critical economic force.
Unfortunately we don’t have a choice on everything we buy to make sure it’s made in America, but in the world of musky lures, there is a little glimmer of hope.
Attitudes like mine? How does looking at the economy realistically cause any issues? What I said is reality. It's a global economy out there, and our economic survival depends on it. You make your own lures. Good for you, that's a good thing. If you lived in Bolivia, you'd make them there. Hire 150 people to build your lures to meet the demand and decide to build a $1 Million dollar factory, and then let's talk.
Let's talk reels a minute. That's different somehow? Nope. It's OK to throw a Suzy Sucker and holler MADE IN THE USA!! and toot the freaking horn like it's the end of the world typing on the computer made in China that the reel needs to be a Shimano? How does THAT work?
Hundreds...that many folks are in and out of work in the USA in moments. Muskie lures are NOT a major economic force out there in our economy; in fact the majority are considered cottage industry or smaller. I submit the reason some lure builders stay in the USA is because they have not hit the volume and are not filling the SKUs that would cause them to look at the options seriously.
I co-operate a business that's 100% USA based. That doesn't make me a Patriot.
Reality is, some folks prefer US built goods. That's cool. Many, however, don't look for the country of origin, they look for customer satisfaction, customer service, and more and buy accordingly. All of those folks are the main engine of our economy, and thier choices to buy and be taxed on that purchase is what drives our base economy.
Our great state is busted. Yet they drive manufacturing out of the state by taxing them to near extinction, and in some cases chase them clean out of the country.
Capitalism...it's a wonderful thing with plenty of pitfalls.
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Jeff Hanson - 2/21/2011 5:07 PM
PIKEMASTER-"sometimes a different leader will change the action of a bait"- That is so true, Try a weighted leader from Stealth tackle on either bait you will be amazed at the increased action. Gives both alot better hop, triggers more strikes and gets the bait down where it needs to be. Adding a splitring to front of the bait will help with action as well.
Jeff Hanson
madisonmuskyguide.com
The weighted leaders from STEALTH TACKLE ( MADE IN U.S.A.) are great, I tried them out and use them alot now. Also the size/weight of the hooks will affect the actions of baits to. |
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| x2 to what James said. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Curly Sues ARE made of a more durable material, that said, they are also tougher to sink teeth into and IMO, less appealing for a musky to keep their jaws clamped down on. In addition, when a fish can't sink its teeth into the rubber, like they can a Bulldawg or SuperD, driving the hooks home on the hookset can and HAS been an issue I've expereinced with tougher rubber. Another case and point; I have said this before and believe it makes enough difference for you to consider when you're buying rubber, the rounder the head, the more water the lure will displace. While the SuperD has a slightly more aerodynamic head than the Bulldawg, it's not that far off. That said, the Curly Sues tend to have a narrow head, making them very aerodynamic, such that the glide and pull is easier and the invisible water displacement cannot contend with rubber built with rounder, more stubbed heads. One would have to imagine that in the depths of the basin where you're ripping big rubber, visibility may become more of a second hand "calling power" of the lure, while "feel" may be the primary "dinner's ready" whistle.
I'll add that when you buy into MI rubber, bare in mind the differences in the glide and pull based on the harness. The flexy 7 strand tends to favor a curve off to one side of the other on the rip - I prefer to tune my rubber so that it glides perfectly straight, so I lean towards the wire harness'. The only time I want to see belly rolls or curving off to one side or the other is when I make the lure do it - I want to be in control of the lure and know what it looks like every time I sweep my rod, even when it's 40 feet out there.
FYI - If I'm not mistaken, Brad Ruh has incorporated American Made hardware onto his Dawgs in the last couple years... and thanks Prof., for the correction on my spelling error. |
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| The term is aerodynamic or in this case I’ve seen it advertised as “hydrodynamic” lol. Water displacement is a factor of volume; shape has nothing to do with it. When moving through the water, the shape of a lure determines its vortex generators that cause turbulent flow; this is what a musky can sense.
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Thanks Prof. Peabody, so a Curly Sue being thicker then a MI Bulldawg will generate more turbulent flow, over a MI Bulldawg. Funny, so the nose of the Dawg has nothing to do with hydrodynamic. THANKS |
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| Kinda, it’s more about pressure waves and creating them. Volume of the bait, shape of the bait, and the force applied to move it through the water are your factors there.
A streamlined glider will have a wide swing, a bull nosed one will not. If they have the same volume they will have the same water displacement. Do they create the same detectible pressure wave? Do the muskies care? Yes and no, No and yes
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Prof. Peabody - 2/22/2011 9:06 AM The term is aerodynamic or in this case I’ve seen it advertised as “hydrodynamic” lol. Water displacement is a factor of volume; shape has nothing to do with it. When moving through the water, the shape of a lure determines its vortex generators that cause turbulent flow; this is what a musky can sense.
The vortex, or "tracks" that a lure leaves behind in it's path is certainly a factor of the water displacement and I pleasantly disagree at this stage in this discussion, that a wider blunt nose doesn't push more water... What I need to see is a ballistics gell demonstration of a round vs narrow bullet.
The blunt head of a straight traveling lure means everything in the way of waking up a sleeping giant with a lure that has little more than a fluttery tail for action, then again, this is my theory - let's take this a little further. I believe aerodynamics of a narrow lure with limited action, other than it's tail, will create less of a vortex, as you put it, than something with a wider/rounder head.
I would venture to suggest a wider tail, like Storms version of BIG rubber, would push more water in more directions than that of a thinner tail, like MI, TI and SA. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | I have no problem being wrong, so long as I learn something. |
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| Water is incompressible and is fluid (obviously). Ballistics gel is not comparable. Less do this… Say you have water flowing downstream and there is a projection from the riverbank creating an eddy. The eddy itself would be the turbulent flow or “trail”, the distance the projection sticks out from the bank would be the size of the bait or it’s “volume”. When the water flows around this point and is pushed out or “displaced” out into the river, does it matter if it was a smooth transition or an abrupt one? I think not, the displacement will be the same. Does the location of the felt “displacement” change with the different shapes? Possibly, but on a musky lure it cannot be more than a few inches or few seconds apart.
I’m not a professor, but I did stay in a holiday inn express last night, just theorizing myself here too…
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Posts: 1141
Location: NorthCentral WI | I know what you're saying Peabody but in the fishing world, "water displacement" is a commonly used term for what Sam is describing. Now, the amount of water a bulldawg pushes and the amount of water a sue pushes is obviously going to be different. I would agree that it would be very minimal, however, the wider head of a dawg IS going to move more water. That's just common sense. It's like holding your hand out the window while driving; hold your hand straight forward, then turn it so your palm is facing forward. More surface area is going to create more turbulence. Whether or not "water displacement" is truly the correct term; Who cares! Point taken Sam. |
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| Sam Ubl - 2/22/2011 8:36 AM
Curly Sues ARE made of a more durable material, that said, they are also tougher to sink teeth into and IMO, less appealing for a musky to keep their jaws clamped down on.
What does this have to do with catching a muskie? What about a suick, plastic twitchbait, etc. Generally, don't we set the hook immediately after we feel a strike? Are you telling me with Curly Sues the muskies hit, feel that it's hard rubber, and let go before you have time to set the hook? |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | This thread has taken some pretty interesting turns! I do know that I own Curly Sues, Bulldawgs, and Super D's, and have caught fish on all of them. No bait really stands out over the other in terms of productivity in the long haul. I do have to agree with Sam somewhat in that a blunt nosed lure probably pushes more water than a slender nosed one. However, curly Sues also have bigger fins on them as well, which have to do something. I would bet that to a musky, all the rubber baits being discussed can be heard, and that they also all sound slightly different.
Also, Sam, I respect your opinion but do you really think Shack Attack baits are so hard that they feel unnatural to a fish? If you pick up a sucker, walleye, crappie, etc. the real thing is harder than the plastic of a Dawg in my opinion.
Good discussion. A little bit of fluff to pick through but there is some good stuff in here.
Tucker |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Guest - 2/22/2011 12:14 PM Sam Ubl - 2/22/2011 8:36 AM Curly Sues ARE made of a more durable material, that said, they are also tougher to sink teeth into and IMO, less appealing for a musky to keep their jaws clamped down on. What does this have to do with catching a muskie? What about a suick, plastic twitchbait, etc. Generally, don't we set the hook immediately after we feel a strike? Are you telling me with Curly Sues the muskies hit, feel that it's hard rubber, and let go before you have time to set the hook?
Good question. What I'm conveying is that a softer rubber, like that of the MI Dawgs and TI SuperD's, is something to 'sink your teeth into', similar to real forage. Consider a bass fisherman who's smallie just got chomped by a musky. Have you seen any YouTube vids on how long these fish will hold on before letting go? Sometimes you can get the ski in the net after an intense battle without ever setting hooks into the fish. Case and point - some guys will hang a hookless sucker for ski's in the early spring and in the fall. . Once they sink their teeth in, they don't want to let go.
Take a harder or stiffer rubber and sure you have durability, BUT, you also have something that when I musky grabs on, it feels foreign and isn't forgiving to the pressure of their chomp.
So yes, I believe two things happen here.
1) They clamp down and are quick to spit it out
2) When you set the hook, the teeth won't slice through the rubber as easy, allowing for you to drive those hooks home into that hard boney mouth.
This isn't always the case, sometimes they hit it just right and there's little they can do to avoid getting hooked, and in some cases you wouldn't have even needed to set the hook because they hit it just right. For consistencies sake, I prefer softer rubber - fish bite and don't let go, plus you have that hook setting advantage. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | curleytail - 2/22/2011 12:41 PM Sam, I respect your opinion but do you really think Shack Attack baits are so hard that they feel unnatural to a fish? If you pick up a sucker, walleye, crappie, etc. the real thing is harder than the plastic of a Dawg in my opinion. Good discussion. A little bit of fluff to pick through but there is some good stuff in here. Tucker
Tucker, for the most part, I believe it's predominantly the "driving the hooks home" with ease of the teeth slicing through the rubber as you set the hook more so than the natural feeling, however, I don't discount that possibility. It's a theory more than anything, but I have to imagine it's true to some degree.
Consider this for a moment; A fish bites down and sinks the teeth in with ease - I suspect the musky might believe her hunt is over and she's the victor, thus she's less likely or willing to let go. Kind of like a war.. When an opponent senses their winning, they press harder, but if they feel like their effort is making only a pin prick, they might back off a little. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Sam Ubl - 2/22/2011 1:18 PM
Consider this for a moment; A fish bites down and sinks the teeth in with ease - I suspect the musky might believe her hunt is over and she's the victor, thus she's less likely or willing to let go. Kind of like a war.. When an opponent senses their winning, they press harder, but if they feel like their effort is making only a pin prick, they might back off a little.
I wonder if fish have enough brain power to think about that ?????
Look at all the fish caught on Hard baits or Metal Spoons, DCG, I don't see fish spitting out Hard baits anymore then Soft baits. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Prof. Peabody - 2/22/2011 10:25 AM
Kinda, it’s more about pressure waves and creating them. Volume of the bait, shape of the bait, and the force applied to move it through the water are your factors there.
A streamlined glider will have a wide swing, a bull nosed one will not. If they have the same volume they will have the same water displacement. Do they create the same detectible pressure wave? Do the muskies care? Yes and no, No and yes
A blunt head bait has more water reresistance then a narrow bait, so it is the size of it's body, the volume / size that what makes a bait displace water. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | I want to clear something up regarding my points on rubber texture: soft vs hard. To be clear, the rubber on the older Shack Attack baits, at least the Suzy Suckers (not so much the Curly Sue's) seemed to get harder over time, or weathered may be the better way to put it. From what I understand the plastic that is used by Shack Attack has been upgraded to a higher quality material that's proven to stay a consistent texture for the life of the lure. To be fair to Shack Attack Lures, I would suspect the tail action on these baits would stay consistent for the life of the lure as a result of the improved rubber, where as some of the older ones with the older rubber would harden up and show a stiffer tail wobble. Either way you look at it, it's very apparent that these three companies, Musky Innovations, Tackle Industries and Shack Attack have taken into account both the positive and especially negative feedback from us consumers and it shows by their constantly improving lures! |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | PIKEMASTER - 2/22/2011 1:57 PM Sam Ubl - 2/22/2011 1:18 PM Consider this for a moment; A fish bites down and sinks the teeth in with ease - I suspect the musky might believe her hunt is over and she's the victor, thus she's less likely or willing to let go. Kind of like a war.. When an opponent senses their winning, they press harder, but if they feel like their effort is making only a pin prick, they might back off a little. I wonder if fish have enough brain power to think about that ????? Look at all the fish caught on Hard baits or Metal Spoons, DCG, I don't see fish spitting out Hard baits anymore then Soft baits. It isn't so much a "thinking" thing for them I suspect, so much as it is a natural reaction. I don't know that comparing blade baits or spoons is very reasonable - you have lures with hooks trailing the bait, and in the case of a DCG, you have two trebles, one mid-section and one trailer, so often is the case that their is little time for a fish to spit out the lure before you lay hooks into her. Now hard baits I can definitely say I've had fish absolutely crush them, literally, so that's a little more of a fair game of comparing apples to oranges. I have pre-fished tournaments with hookless hardbaits on a couple rare occasions when I was first getting into competative fishing several years ago and found out quickly they don't hold on for long, even with minimal resistance. You have to assume a musky has more bite down power on a soft rubber bait then a hardbait. Sure I have some tooth marks in wood and hard plastic lures, but I have inch deep gouges in my rubber baits. Maybe it's just not easy enough for them to let go because of the teeth being burried in the rubber - I think it's fair to say that. With layers of teeth clamping down, a fish would have to open wide and avoid the hooks to spit it out and even then the rubber may stick. You can come up with all the BST's you could care to come up with on why softer rubber may be better than hard, but the MAIN point to consider is redundant of what I've been saying all along - driving the hooks home. I remember a fish that was potentially one of the biggest I've seen eating my MagDawg whole, five feet from the boat. I ripped back but in a couple headshakes, to my dismay, out popped the Dawg... How could it be?? Some of the softest rubber out there but still not soft enough that my hookset drove in those hooks. What I had left was a vivid memory and a tattered bull dawg... Boohoo, it happens. |
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| Zib - 2/21/2011 7:08 PM
pepsiboy - 2/21/2011 4:04 PM
i would also add the following
more than 80 % of musky lures dosnt create a single job,the owner build his stuff so what the difference if the bait is made in china or usa?
The difference is that the guy in the US making his baits by himself spends that money in the US, which contributes to other US businesses & adds tax revenue to pay for welfare programs etc.
I can't comment on the baits as I have yet to use the Curly Sues but have wanted to try them. I thought they were going to be at the Michigan show but I thought wrong.
do you think the owner of tackle industries and musky inovation owner are spending their cash in china? |
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| do you think the chinese workers of tackle industries and musky inovation baits are spending their cash in the US? |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yep. Levis, Mickey D's, and a plethora of other Capitalistic wasteland items the poor and downtrodden lust for.
There's a business out there in the USA called 'Importing'. Amazing numbers, big dollars to be made if you know the ropes.
There's also this dealybob called exporting. Has to do with GDP and all that sort of stuff, you know, as part of the total.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/current_press_rel... |
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