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Posts: 376
Location: Cudahy, Wisconsin | Yep.... |
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Location: Contrarian Island | TJ wrote:
"I've been running two HDS-8's this year, I've had to adjust without the icon button myself. So, I have found by laying down a track, it's just as efficient and in my opinion better than using icons. Lay the track down, use the way point button to mark a sweet spot or fish or whatever it may be."
I will debate w/ you that a track is "better" than using icons til the cows come home...a track does not map out structure...it only maps out your track...which are you telling me that your track is 100% right on the money all the time? you must put down all your tracks when there isn't a puff of wind I take it???
Edited by BNelson 8/19/2010 10:18 PM
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Ok this is almost a joke...but I have to comment since it is such blinded product support TJ. I am not into product bashing...but I am into addressing true FACTS that are issues with products. Everything me and others are experiencing are issues, and facts that the company best address or significantly loose customer base, plain and simple.
FIrst off, I am a consumer product developer for a living. If the product doesn't meet the customers needs, it is soon seen in our sales and customers walking away.
To blindly say that we need to adapt the way WE the consumer use the tools so they work, is a great way to run a business into the ground. We used the tools the way they were originally designed. The issue is then they changed the game and didn't make a interface that sucessfully communicates and transfers the data between the two generations. This is a HUGE issue period.
THe whole discussion around using trials etc, thats a joke. Seriously, if you ever fished a very complex piece of structure out in the middle of no where with one of us that uses icons/waypoints effectively, I bet you would have your eyes opened. If bass fisherman are NOT doing this, well I have a method that will definately help someone climb the leader board.
Ask them these questions:
1. Can they do a program update to incorporate an option to select "display waypoint names" and "Hide all waypoint names" This would be very helpful.
2. Can they reprogram an option to download different waypoint symbols. ie the ghost of an X they have now, over the Dark Fully colored X they USE to use, is just soooo much harder to see now when it is at your foot.
TJ, instead of blindly defending lowrance and suggesting we change how we fish AWAY from their older technology and adapt to THIER new technology....how about you work with us and lowrance to help us improve their product so it clearly meets the need of the consumers.
I am a lowrance fan, always have been. However, with the few of us complaining about legitimate issues, there are ARMIES behind us feeling the same way that will likely just walk away over to someone else versus trying to get the issues addressed.
THAT help would be much more helpful to lowrance, you and us.
Cory |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Doc? He's known as Doctor Sonar, and is a preeminent expert on Lowrance electronics plus is one of the all time leaders in total cash won, and he took fourth in the South Dakota Walleye Classic AIM last weekend. Chase? Last weekend, too. A big one. |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Brad, I'm not saying the track is better, I'm saying it's a system, especially on the HDS units where you don't have an icon feature anymore.
I will personally invite you to come fish with me, I will show you that a track will be just as good, better in my opinion due to not having a crap ton of icons on my screen.
I will run a piece of structure, lay down a track, and if it's not good enough the first run, I'll run it again the next time I'm at that spot, using a different color for the track. Then, you can delete your old track or whatever. I've got my tracks pretty finely tuned after just a few times running any piece of structure, laying down the sweet spots as way points or anything of importance as a way point.
Why would you say my track isn't right 100% of the time? If I layed the track down, then it's right where I layed it. If I'm going along and I cut to far in or something, the track will show it, then the next time through, I can tell oh look, I had to adjust myself because the track got tracked over so that tells me, pay attention, I need watch my locator and not cut to far in this time.
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Location: Contrarian Island | um I think I'll pass on that......I know and understand how you use your tracks..and I still think the way I use my LCXs/ icons is better...I actually like looking at lots of icons.. |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'maybe Doc or one of TJ buddy buddy Lowrance guys could actually go fish w/ a musky guy for a day and see how WE use the products...sounds like to me they only think bass and walleye jerkers use them'
Doc is an avid Muskie angler.
I believe this thread is about complaining because the software changed and several anglers would prefer it didn't. Cory's example of marking out a clump of weeds is EXACTLY what I saw the guys doing on the Missouri river using waypoints and tracks last weekend. Same function, different way of getting there. I don't know if one is better than the other, because I do neither.
If you want the icons back, then the best road is to try to impress upon Lowrance why they are valuable to you without all the rhetoric sure to alienate, and try to get a software package built to meet your purposes. Behaving obnoxiously won't solve the issue either way...and that goes for everyone here. |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | One question, how can you lay an exact track if you first don't know every little in and out of a weedline. TYpically you run into the weedline, then have to weave back out to stay outside it...then you run into a point so now have to adjust back out again, then keep going straight thinking you are setting a trail down right off the edge and completely miss a nice inside pocket etc.
Unless you can VISUALLY see the entire bottom, then laying a trail is not in my mind as effective for a caster (troller is very different in my mind).
Brad and I few years ago got into some fish on a HUGE flat...WAY OFF the shore. On this flat were clumps of cabbage of different size. We literially drove around them and marked up the outline of these clumps with green x's. Instead of aimlessly doing drifts over this flat hoping to contact fish that were holding on these clumps....we pinpointed every cast as we knew where the edges of the clumps were....we knew where the HEART of the clumps were.... We started putting fish icons on the locations of clumps....talk about starting to put a pattern together....certain clumps started showing more fish.
We were able to put the cast ON THE MONEY all the time. A trail would never let us do that. We could almost call where fish would be at on this HUGE sparcely weeded flat.
Can't remember how many fish that trip alone we put in the boat, I know I got a 4 footer off of a clump that had several fish icons on it at that point...
Results speak for the tools and the way they are used.
Edited by C.Painter 8/19/2010 10:30 PM
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Actually gentlemen, first off, as we all know, I am a hardcore Lowrance fan. Nothing wrong with Hummingbird, but I personally think Lowrance holds the edge and I like their product.
As for losing customers Cory, Lowrance had record breaking sales since the release of the HDS units. Not only did they win New Product Showcase in 2009 at ICAST but also Best of Show in 2010 ICAST.
My StructureScan was back ordered for over six weeks. This is fact, right from the factory themselves. So to tell me they are not meeting customer needs, well I beg to differ.
Musky fishermen are for sure less than 10%, maybe even 5% of Lowrance sales. Adjusting to musky fishermen alone, good luck with that one, honestly. |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Selling product out of the gate...then having folks like me learn the issues with one of the "OTHER" units I have....I am telling you sales out of the gate do NOT dictate Repeat purchase...I know this from experience.
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | I would like to make a bet....we fish a lake niether has fished before...we pick one big complex structure...you do your track, I will do my method...in the end we will see who can best tell someone else all the details of that spot...AND be able to put a cast on all these little "details". In the end, the one that knows the most about a given structure, will put more fish in the boat period.
Oh, and I am not talking about using side scan etc etc...because the average fisherman is NOT dropping that kind of dough. They are getting the GPS/Depthfinder units period....
THAT will be apples to apples.
Edited by C.Painter 8/19/2010 10:37 PM
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Brad, not necessary man. I have not once said what your doing is wrong, it works, you have the proof to show it.
Cory, in that instance of the clumps of cabbage, then waypoint those. I would have in that instance. But if your running a weedline, most of the time a consistent depth can be followed. If your going along, all of sudden the boat goes from the 14 feet of water you were holding in to 10 feet, guess what, I'd be pushing my boat left or right towards deeper water. Why? More than likely you are coming up on an inside turn or something has changed along that weedline.
Yes, you may run into the weedline or spot once in awhile, but that's learning, that's part of finding out what's there. By doing that, you have learned ok well I need to adjust for this next time. I guess personally trial and error once in awhile isn't always bad in my opinion. |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | TJ you say to waypoint the clumps...and I do....on my NEW LAKES.....but on this lake for example...I have all that data already....but now I can't effectively use it because lowarance didn't create the tool so I can use THEIR data now easily. You see my issue here? We have PILES of data, that literally took DAYS to get...that can't effectively be used. THat is an issue...to put your head in the sand and say its not....is nuts.
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | TJ DeVoe - 8/19/2010 10:35 PM
Cory, in that instance of the clumps of cabbage, then waypoint those. I would have in that instance. But if your running a weedline, most of the time a consistent depth can be followed. If your going along, all of sudden the boat goes from the 14 feet of water you were holding in to 10 feet, guess what, I'd be pushing my boat left or right towards deeper water. Why? More than likely you are coming up on an inside turn or something has changed along that weedline.
Yes, you may run into the weedline or spot once in awhile, but that's learning, that's part of finding out what's there. By doing that, you have learned ok well I need to adjust for this next time. I guess personally trial and error once in awhile isn't always bad in my opinion.
Reading this TJ CLEARLY tells me you are missing a lot of key information when you are doing it this way. I fish ton of spots where the depth never changes and the weed edge is all over the place....if you adjust the way you do...you run up onto spots etc.
Like Brad said, (actually, I think we said it in the article too) Why crash and burn a spot 3-4 times to learn the spot when you can mark it once, and fish it like you have fished it for years...and CATCH the fish instead of burning the spot 
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Cory, can't be done from what I've been told. Trust me, Lowrance has heard the 'icon gone' comments, no need for me to tell them again. I can tell you the reason why, but everyone of you guys haven't listened from the get go so no reason to rehash it. Your situation sucks, only thing I can tell you to do is find another LCX unit on ebay and go with it. The HDS units are so much better and with the StructureScan and DownScan features, that's a no brainer.
Brad, if I screw up 1 out of 10 times, I'm cool with that. I've found some very cool and intriguing spots, spots where I've come back to and caught fish from that 1 screw up because I found something I wouldn't necessarily would have found had I not.
I'm actually finding, with the StructureScan feature, my chances of screwing something up along a weedline or on a spot is far less now. The StructureScan is in my opinion priceless. Networking both units together so I can get the StructureScan and DownScan on both units is amazing!
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Gentlemen, behave and debate the issues with out the bad interpersonal behavior. Last request. |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Ask Josh Lenda how effective this is. He fished with me one day this year. We fished a lake he knows pretty well but I had only fished it one time prior to me spending the day on the 800 or so acre lake marking it and fishing it.
The day I marked it I spent 4 hours marking it up....I then fished it for a couple hours and caught two.
Then I fished it a second time with Josh. Ask him how effective the method was for us. How well could I tell him about exact detail about spots and spot on the spot, and more importantly, fish it with percision. I think we boat 1 and had two or three more hit and not hit the net.
Not sure how laying a trail could of given you that kind of detail.
If I am wrong, someone please show me. I would like to see what doc does, I bet it does have its advantage in cetain situations.
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Cory, again, what your doing isn't wrong, I'm not claiming it to be wrong. All I'm saying is, there are other ways in some instances that can be just as effective if not better. Since the HDS doesn't have icons, I've had to adjust and change some, just no other way around it. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | or buy a Hummingbird....
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | I still do what I did with waypoints. That lake Josh and I fished, I just had my HD unit with me. Even though the waypoint system they have on the new units is NOT as user friendly as the icons were...I have adjusted (like you said we need to do as consumers). However, I still have a pile of data I want to use....hello is this thing on? |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Cory, as I told you, the only way you can do what your wanting to do is manually change the ICON name and make them way points. This has been an issue for some since day 1, and we've talked about it before on this site.
I will make a call tomorrow and double check to make sure there is nothing else you can do. I asked your question to him in two different ways, trying to be clear so he knew exactly what you meant and both times I got the same answer.
So, what that tells me is, if they got rid of the icon feature, and didn't provide a way for you to transfer icons to the HDS units without making a waypoint, it clearly wasn't a big issue or not enough people complained to get them to change it on the second generations units. Like I said, the way you, I Brad, Reef and others have used the icons in the past, that's apparent that's not what they, meaning Lowrance thought users would use the icon feature for. |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Can you transfer the icons and rename them; build a databse and store it on removable media for select systems? I remember hearing something about this at an FLW or an AIM...storing the tracks and waypoints for several systems so the issue of limited waypoints is addressed. It's 1000, right? Did I hear this correctly? |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Brad, your taking what I said wrong man. Yes, they created them to use, just not the way you use them. Offering only 1,000 icons and waypoints each on the LCX units would get used up awfully quickly the way you, Cory and Reef use them from the sounds of it. They clearly didn't make the feature to be used in the way you are using it.
The new HDS's hold 5,000 waypoints! |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | TJ DeVoe - 8/19/2010 11:00 PM
Cory, as I told you, the only way you can do what your wanting to do is manually change the ICON name and make them way points. This has been an issue for some since day 1, and we've talked about it before on this site.
I will make a call tomorrow and double check to make sure there is nothing else you can do. I asked your question to him in two different ways, trying to be clear so he knew exactly what you meant and both times I got the same answer.
So, what that tells me is, if they got rid of the icon feature, and didn't provide a way for you to transfer icons to the HDS units without making a waypoint, it clearly wasn't a big issue or not enough people complained to get them to change it on the second generations units. Like I said, the way you, I Brad, Reef and others have used the icons in the past, that's apparent that's not what they, meaning Lowrance thought users would use the icon feature for.
let me get this clear, I have only a small issue with not having icons, and thats becuase now when I put my data from my HD unit back on my lcx, I can't since its over the 1000 point mark...I understand that is the limitation do to advancement.
I am ALSO ok with just having waypoints. I think it could be done a little differently but we are not talking about that right now.
I am not asking to have icons back. If they could add a programing feature to allow waypoint names to be all shown, or "all hide" or do a select option to highlight the ones you want names to show...or SOMETHING so we can turn off the names from showing from a programing standpoint. I think this can be done...
Thanks...let us know what he says...
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Cory, I was told you have to manually change each name and that's it. They are way points now and will be on the screen. I will double check again tomorrow, not a problem. |
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Posts: 376
Location: Cudahy, Wisconsin | Cory is totally right. I used to do what TJ does and it works but its nowhere near as accurate as using the icons. From july of this year to recent I've laid down 800 icons. It works, periiod. Cory, thanks for opening my eyes to this back in July. |
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | TJ, something to ponder would be to maybe have your Lowrance techs look at this (and the other threads you're referring to) to see if maybe they can implement some sort of improvement out for their software to where the users of their products don't have to go through all of the manual manipulation of the data gathered on prior units. Technology is changing daily, and I doubt if it would be difficult to create code that provides an upgrade that allows for easier data transfer from older units.
Most of my posts last night were in jest if you weren't able to tell, however what Cory, Brad, and I are refering to by being able to map out structure using icons (or waypoints as it may be) is to PREVENT us from sliding in too close to the area we are casting to, and to be able to hit those spots with the cast that is needed prior to getting to the area. The tracks aren't going to highlight that sort of detail when the spot is mapped out as you mention. I'm sure there is a time and place for how you work (I do use trails for some of my trolling runs), however when trying to focus on specific areas of larger structures, mapping as Cory and Brad have outlined is very productive.
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | Oh yeah, and to the Structure Scan. Like Cory also mentioned, yes it is awesome technology, however many of the fisherman are not going to be able to afford to purchase this as it is pretty expensive at this point when you get into the units that really help that feature work (from what I've seen, the larger screen units help this functionality much better, at least for my aging eyes, and my binoculars are only used for looking at the "scenery" on sunny summer days lol).
I haven't seen the Lowrance structure scan in action, but have seen the 'Bird side imaging, and the capabilities of these units are amazing to say the least. Being able to see how far off of a weedline, or a rockpile in the middle of some weeds, etc is fantastic and I can see how that could help me direct my casts and my client's casts towards the sweet spots even better, and without the use of GPS. However, my wife tells me it's apparently more important to feed my family and put a house over their head so I haven't been able to pull the trigger on any of those units up to this point.
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| TJ, i wasn't a big believer either until Cory and Brad published the article about it in Musky Hunter. one day when the fishing was slow on Waubesa i started playing around marking lots of points along a weedline just for the heck of it...when i came back through fishing the area, i realized just how right they were and what i'd been missing before. it makes you more efficient, and that makes you better.
for example, there's a couple of sandbar/sunken islands that i like to fish. i know Brad and Cory have visited them before too. on the top of these large shallow humps there are there areas of rock that poke up through the sand, and in among those rocks in a couple places where there are specific larger boulders. there's also some chara and other bottom-clinging junk weeds scattered around.
on my screen are some widely spaced icons indicating "sand" (i used a yellow diamond), clusters of icons for "weeds" (i use a weed image), with other clusters of icons indicating "rock" (i use a gray rockpile picture), and specific icons inside those clusters indicating "boulder" (i use a brown double-circle). and then of course there are the "fish" icons indicating where they've been contacted.
i can run these spots fan-casting the sand, particularly hitting the fish icons. then i can work around the weed or rock areas more slowly, specifically casting to the transitions. lastly i can work up on top of the rocks, hitting the boulders from various angles at a distance without burning the spot by driving over it.
that's kind of casting precision is just not possible if all i had was some tracks and generic waypoints - it doesn't distinguish enough.
i've got the Side Imaging, and i STILL put a ton of points down all over important pieces of structure. i do use it to "shoulder" certain weedlines or other structure in the way that TJ suggests and it's a great tool for that. but if anything, i put even more icons down as i'm now able to pick out some things from a distance (esp. a single element on a larger piece of structure) that i might have missed in the past. with the SI i can put the icon on the image off to the side of the boat and it shows up on the map at the proper location, ie., 75 feet off the to starboard or whatnot.
now, all of that being said, i run a Humminbird which means i have to enter points as a generic waypoint and then manually change the picture to what i want. i'm pretty practiced at it so it only takes about 10 seconds to do - no big deal when doing them one at a time. i would definitely not want to have to go back and re-enter/change the image from all of my old saved points when i transfre them and it's unfortunate that Lowrance didn't anticipate this issue and/or correct it in an update. maybe they will do so, maybe they won't. customer loyalty makes for a lot of sales when something new is released, but it only lasts until that new thing isn't quite as good as hoped and next time...
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Check this out:
http://www.hightechfishing.com/drdepth-1.html
Custom data can be added to the mapping, and the map Doc made on the Goon is so accurate I can tell if my cast will land on a small pile of rocks from my position. As I see it, it's not that waypoints won't do what this group wants to accomplish, it's that they used icons in the past and want to seamlessly transfer the data over in the exact same format from old to new, and it doesn't work that way. We tried to find a resolution earlier this year, and will try again.
Special request:
Someone, either Brad or Cory, please send me a file from the old unit, and the same file transferred to the new. Send it to me asap at [email protected].
We are going to look into this and see what we can do. Send me the files!
Attachments
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 dd_5-4-10_2.jpg (214KB - 195 downloads)
hybrid_1.jpg (108KB - 203 downloads)
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