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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | I quit measuring my own fish last year (I usually measured a guest's for them since it was often their first one), but began again this year at the request of the biologist in charge of the waters I fish. They requested a length measurement (no girth) and a few scales for aging.
Now before some of you decide to jump down my throat about aging with scales...these fish are all tigers, they live to be about 9 years old so scales can be a valid method of estimating age. It's not like you have to try to identify and count 24 annuli to get an age here. The data is to help determine age class strengths and more precisely refine the stocking quotas.
Precise measurements? Over-rated for recreation IMO. Nice to know when a fish is close to or at some arbitrary 'magic mark' though. But some people have really cool cameras and like to use them - muskies make nice subjects. 
I'd rather see nice photos than precise measurements.
S. |
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Posts: 69
Location: Pittsburgh | pedantic zealot??? |
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Posts: 21
| I too no longer measure my fish. I only estimate in the net. Best move i have made in terms of success was to stop with the accurate measurements. This year my average length of catch has increased by 7" per fish due to these estimates!!!
Try it it will make you a better fisherman!
Bob |
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| Simple fisherman - 8/11/2010 7:57 PM
pedantic zealot???
pedantic: narrowly, stodgily, and often ostentatiously opinionated.
zealot: : a zealous person; especially : a fanatical partisan
pedantic zealot.
If the shoe fits... |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
And to that I will raise a toast RK.
JS |
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Posts: 2012
| bob mesikomer should invest in a bumpboard!  |
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| Both are words. Go look them up.
Tee Hee |
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Posts: 69
Location: Pittsburgh | Thank you RK |
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| Just like lures progress from Mepps Musky Killers to Double Cowgirls, like rods progress from 6' pool cues to 9' split grips, and our locators progress from Zercom flashers to $2,500 side-imaging, weather predicting, tv screens... I think our CPR and fish handling tactics need to follow the same progretion. I think it's time to put first the excitement of the catch and appreciation/respect of the fish far before the length and or girth measurement of every muskie we catch. I think if more and more of us can listen to and practice what Rob Kimm is preaching and what Doug Johnson practices it will do wonders for our muskie fishing future.
The last few years now I have been attempting to water release all of my muskies if safely possible, and only measure now what I consider to be trophy fish. I have had to make the ego fueling length and girth measurements of 48 inchers a thing of the past and at first it was difficult. However, there's something rewarding about watching a 4' fish swim away that you caught and released without having to lay a hand on it. |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | The less you handle the fish the better off it is. Netting fish when they are green is much harder on a fish then playing it to the boat and releasing it untouched. Fish in a net are fighting the net and even with the big rubber coated nets bad things can happen (fish roll, hooks get caught, etc and release time is extended). It's much easier on the fish if it's possible to just reach down and flip the hook out with a long nose pliers that it is to net the fish. I've done this with hundreds of fish and for the most part they just swim off even in high water temps. Just did it again today with the same results. Perhaps I've seen too many muskies but a picture of a 38"er doesn't impress me much. I guess that I really don't care if the fish is 40" or 41". I usually water measure fish that I think are 48" or better, and sometimes we take a photo. Not always, we've caught many fish up to 54" that for some reason we never took a picture of, usually because we forgot the camera. Doug Johnson |
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Posts: 580
| I hear what you are saying RK, and I'd like to agree with you. But, I don't know, is it really that big of a deal to measure and photo a fish? I mean, really think about it. You are intentionally trying to impale a fish's face with very sharp large hooks, then wrestle it against it's will to the boat with extremely stout tackle....you're certainly going to hook some very deeply, and occasionally have some hooks in gills, etc....but with all of that potential trauma to the fish, for some reason you are drawing the line at a quick measurement and photograph?
I like to think that I take extra precautions at all times to not harm a fish. But honestly, if a fish is going to die on me, I really don't think that 15-30 seconds out of the water for a quick measurement and picture is what does her in....a photo does not hurt a fish. The bump board doesn't hurt the fish. 15-30 seconds out of the water might be moderately uncomfortable for the fish, but there's no lasting harm from that. However, hooks in eyes, hooks in gullets, hooks in gills...well, if you're really, really concerned about the fish's well-being, that's where I'd suggest you focus your attention.
Do I really need a photo of a 42"er? Probably not. Do I really need to go fishing for it in the first place? Probably not. But I like to fish, and I like pictures and when I catch a fish, I'm curious to know how big it is. Yeah, by now I can estimate pretty well, but since I really don't think it does any harm, what does it hurt to get an accurate measurement. You won't see me posting my fish catches here on this board, or any other...so I really don't think that I have some ego-driven problem.
My problem probably is that I still get quite a thrill when I catch a 42". I hope that never changes. A picture in the moment is a great way to memorialize that moment and that feeling. And since I really don't think that it hurts the fish, I'll probably keep doing it until I'm old and gray. Hope so, anyway. |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | I use a Disto for pinpoint laser accuracy when measuring.
Kevin
Edited by MuskyHopeful 8/11/2010 9:17 PM
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Posts: 20211
Location: oswego, il | I do not measure all of my fish under 40" but do some and my friends who want them measured we do. I also measure my kids fish as I enter those in the M.I. contest. To Rob's incident, I don't understand why anyone would hold a fish with a lure in it's mouth, let alone take one from a net that way, asking for trouble that to me seems to be why the incident happened.
I have never girthed a fish, I suppose when I catch a bunch of 55+'ers and need to know which one was the biggest maybe? Probably not.
One thing, I have never understood why someone has to be upset over a posted fish that looks 45 when they say it's 48 or a 27" girth that looks 22". They don't seem to be in a contest let alone for money, they only matter to the person who caught it and will be forgotten by most in a few days. What is more amazing is these same people could care less about the reocrd fish, THE ONES THAT MATTER, that look even less like their respected claims than say a 50 that loks 48. It's something that absolutely baffles me.  |
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Posts: 463
Location: Sw Pennsylvania | IAJustin - 8/11/2010 9:19 PM
bob mesikomer should invest in a bumpboard! :)
I 2nd that vote |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I agree with Matt, no disrespect RK or Doug J but you guys have probably caught in the thousands of muskies correct? Can you go back and remember when you only had say 20 under your belt, or even 100 ...did you get a thrill from that 38"er and want a pic..I would hope so... that is where many guys are at in the sport...not where you are with thousands of muskies in the boat...try to remember that..The guys that do want a measurement and a pic aren't knocking the guys that have caught so many they don't feel the need to net fish or take pics..but some of you guys seem to want to knock the guys that still do get a thrill from a 38" and wouldn't mind a pic or 2 of a fish..regardless of size....I typically won't take pics of fish under 40" anymore but I sure as heck don't knock the guys that do...
I was fishing with a friend recently that hasn't caught very many but has quite a few 50 plus..he got slammed by a fish mid retrieve, thought it was big, when we saw it, it wasn't...but still a thrill....he wanted a pic..fish were active and I tried to talk him into a quick water release, no pics....it was a mid 30 inch fish...I'm glad I did take the pic...it is a memory...one that our minds in 40 yrs won't remember but the pic will remind us of the thrill that day, the fish, and catching bigger fish that day ... to each their own..I guess I don't get why some guys that have caught so many feel like it's bad to take a pic...like Matt said, we are fishing with hooks... a quick measure and a few quick pics isn't going to kill the fish...at least from any study I know of..until then I will take pics of the fish I think I want a pic of regardless if it's a 36" tiger or a 53"er...I hope we don't get to a point we are fighting with each other over if it's right or wrong to measure and take a pic...fishing for muskies is fun..and so are the pics...I too hope I never get to a point I don't want a quick pic of a nice musky...
Edited by BNelson 8/11/2010 9:42 PM
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Nope, I'm not saying that a quick photo and a 1/10 of an inch measurement aren't O,K, if that's what you need to do. I'm just saying what's easier on the fish. I guide and we take accurate measurements and photo's of many fish. If done with the fish in mind and under lower water temperatures most fish survive. I guide many people who catch their first muskie or their PB, or a 50"er. We take accurate measurements and photo's. However, I know that this isn't the best thing to do for the fish. What I'm trying to say is that if you don't really have a good reason to do all this don't, it'll save a few fishes lives. Doug Johnson |
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Location: Contrarian Island | big difference between need and want...
well the best thing for the fish isn't tossing 8/0 razor sharp hooks at it....but anyway...
I see your point and agree, to some degree....
Edited by BNelson 8/11/2010 10:03 PM
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Posts: 1185
Location: Wishin I Was Fishin' | dcraven - 8/11/2010 4:09 PM
I noticed Jomusky's pic - just remember, biologists insist that vertical holds with no support on the body damage fish in a exponential manner as their size increases. Damage to the spinal column, connective tissue and a whole host of issues occurs.
Just another problem associated with bringing fish into the boat and sticking them on a bump board in the first place...
DC
Your absolutely correct about the vertical hold but the pic was taken for demonstration purposes and it was a smaller fish (mid 30" I think). I've been waiting for someone to make mention of it as I have used the photo for many years now. I feel the gill grab is the most important thing to practice and preach as dropping fish or fish flopping around in the boat is very bad on them. I see so many pictures of people with fish who are not gill grabbing them. I'm just trying to do my part to help people learn the best way. Safest for the fish and the fisherman. |
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Posts: 272
| To me, the whole exaggeration is kind of an insult. Like, if you get away with it, you're pullin' one over on me, and if you get away with it, you win.
Our whole world is based on numbers. Why is it OK to lie about something? I actually earned $70k last year, but I'll only claim $55k for taxes and child support. Is that acceptable?
No, its not the same, but where does a little fib become a lie? At what point is the exaggeration too great to be acceptable?
The other side of this is that a picture can do a fish justice, but it can also make a nice fish look small. Tough to tell sometimes, and in the end, I guess you just need to worry about yourself and ask yourself what's important to you.
The funniest one for me is the walleyes you see posted out of Green Bay and the Fox in the springtime. That's gotta take the cake for fish tales. These jokers really make me laugh when they're claiming 6-7 pounds on 22-24" fish. I thought I was catching 6 pound fish when I first moved here too....until I actually put them on a Rapala digital scale. Yikers! NOT six pounds.
Some of the stuff you see posted sure makes ya laugh sometimes......
-Eric |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | There's a lot of golfers that think they're really big hitters. Then they buy a GPS unit that can measure how far a shot was hit to within a foot or two. As these units have become more affordable, purchasing and using one has been a very humbling and eye opening experience for many.
Doesn't mean they were liars, they were just measuring the distance of their shots in a faulty manner. I think the percentage of fishermen that actually post pictures and lie about the size of the fish is pretty small. Most mis-measure in the heat of the moment, and are so excited about their catch they can't wait to share.
I'd like to invent a camera type device that measures fish accurately and quickly. That would shut everybody up, and make me rich.
Kevin |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | it aint "how" .... it's "how-many" |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | jonnysled - 8/11/2010 11:05 PM
it aint "how" .... it's "how-many"
But that first big one makes the "how many" so much easier. LOL. If I recall correctly. #*^@ GPS.
Kevin |
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| Hi Matt -
Have to say up front - still a thrill for me to catch a 42 incher too. If it's ever not, it's time to hang it up... I won't live long enough to catch half the muskies Doug has, but I bet he'd say the same.
Is there anything wrong with a quick photo and a quick measurement? Absolutely not. Shoot - I held up a 34-incher (my step-daughter's first muskie) for a photo last week. It was out of the water about 10 seconds. I still take fish pictures sometimes, although they're mostly in the water release shots just because I like those pictures a lot.
I want to be clear here... I won't knock anyone for wanting a photo. If that's part of what makes it fun, go for it. I don't think that taking a measurement and a photo and a quick, safe release are mutually exclusive. I think you can do that in a pretty fish-friendly way in a few seconds. Guys have done it that way for years.
I just have a hard time fitting a bump board into that equation. I think you can measure a fish in ways that are safer for everyone (you and the fish) that might be a little less accurate but a lot faster and easier on the fish. I get right back to what matters more - the fish, or how exactly how big it is.
I kind of thought the "if you're so worried about them don't use hooks" argument would come up before long. It always seems to. But I don't buy the reductio ad absurdum. I prefer single treble bucktails and two treble plugs when I can because they make fish easier to unhook, and I love spinnerbaits, but of course some fish will get hooked badly. I had one last week. It happens. If you start talking about not using hooks, you aren't talking about fishing anymore. I like to fish.
But a fish that inhales a bucktail so far you have to go through the gills to cut hooks is something totally out of your control. The same can't be said about bump boards, long out of the water photo sessions and a need to squeeze every fraction of an inch out of a fish. That's a conscious choice made by a person. To me it's a pretty basic ethical point. If the objective is to let the fish go with the highest chances of survival, to me the responsible thing to do is handle the fish in a way that makes that outcome most likely. I think most of the time you can do that and still, if you want to, measure a fish and take a few photos without reducing the chances of a successful release. Certain circumstances (rough water, a long fight, a complex unhooking process, hot water, etc.,) might change that to where the responsible thing to do is just unhook it as fast as you can and skip the measure and photo. It's not black and white. I think everyone eventually settles in to a comfortable spot along the range from measurement and photos of every fish to only measuring and photographing a special fish (special can mean a lot of things...big, first, who you're with, where you are...). For some, like Doug I think, and me for the most part, not messing with fish more than you need to is the default. I think you can be an ethical, responsible angler who cares about and takes care of the fish at any point along that spectrum if you make a conscious choice to do so.
But I'll get back to my point in the first post. To me, bump boards and bringing fish in the boat to get an "accurate measurement" cross the line in terms of how far one needs to go to measure a fish. I just think it's unnecessary when there are other ways to go about it that have little to no practical difference. Again - nobody else cares if it's 44 or 44-1/4. I just can't justify in my mind the extra handling for the sake of "accuracy." |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I guess I fail to see how bringing a fish up and out of the net, and quickly onto a bumpboard for a quick and accurate measurement is any more harmful to the fish than what we are already doing..fishing with big hooks...if you look at the Skie Patrol guides video posted it shows how quickly and accurately it is done ...the whole floating stick in the water thing is fine if you don't care if it's 42 or 44 as to me there could be quite a bit of room for error there ...some like to know what a fish is, or isn't...I still like to know so to me, here's the thing..if it's over 40, I might like a pic...so that involves netting the fish...so I'm already taking it up, out of the net and into the boat right..so to me...laying it down, with a release glove on, onto the bumpboard for all of maybe 3 seconds and back up for a pic or 2 is no more "harm" to the fish or fisherman..... RK I applaud you that you are at the point you don't care so much if a fish is 42 or 44 , or 48 or 50...but some just like to know...you say nobody cares if it's 44 or 44.25...well what if I care if it's 44 or 45? cuz I do...also, to me it has no more harm on the fish than not doing so...I take pride in how careful I am with all the fish that are caught out of my boat..and to me, saying that simply laying a fish down on a wet bumpboard is somehow more harmful than sticking big hooks in its yapper and fighting it to the boat is wrong...imho.
Edited by BNelson 8/11/2010 11:47 PM
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| In my opinion BNelson said it best.....
"I too hope I never get to a point I don't want a quick pic of a nice musky..."
I love fishing because I have an absolute blast doing it and I also love to look at the pictures from various times and places. Without some of the pictures I surely wouldnt be able to recount all the details that happened on that trip or day, etc. I love paging through a photo album and recalling details about a certain fish and day. I also do care how long a fish is... fishing with a very experienced fisherman this summer, one of the very best I know, we both misjudged (most on the smaller side) many of the fish we caught. I'm GLAD we took 3 seconds to put the fish on a bumpboard and find out it was 46 instead of 43. I'm GLAD we took 3 seconds to put a fish on a bumpboard and find out it was 48 instead of 44. I'm also GLAD we put a fish on a bumpboard for 3 seconds and found out it was 48.5 instead of 50. It did no more harm to the fish than the hooks we already put in them.
But..... to each their own!
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
You can see different degrees of what people are willing and not willing to do in efforts to minimize impact of the fish they pursue.
Some feel that taking pics and measuring doesn't take long and if done right really isn't a big deal.
Some also feel that fishing in hot water isn't a big deal either, I mean if we're putting hooks in the mouth than how can hot water be a big deal, right??
Point being everyone can justify thier own actions, and rightfully so in most cases.
At the end of the day, one needs to think about not only today's catches, but tomorrows. I have lots of pics from the past, not so many new ones. I guess someday I'd rather still be catching fish than looking at memories that were measured and photoed. Certainly not saying that photos and measuring are a death sentence, but as DJ said, less handling is better. I'm sure I will contiue to photo and measure some fish, but that is a rare occasion now. (BN is thinking that 'cause you never catch any these days!!)
JS |
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| Agree with Matt. The stress of the catch and injuries from the hooks have the greatest impact on mortality rates. Laying one on a bump board for a few secs as opposed to measuring in the water makes no difference in the rate of mortality. |
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| This sport, when you come right down to it, is all about how big. Not about numbers, or anything else. People want a trophy. When someone posts an obviously bogus claim, it bothers people. Someone hooks a 46, doesn't measure it, and calls it a fifty, then claims they caught 50 over 50. It is what it is. |
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| Big Bob - So, you are saying that taking them out of their natural environment, exposing them to un-natural gravity, reducing the amount of protective slime "makes no difference" on survival rates? WOW!! You just went against what all fisheries biologists agree on. I'd say that is a quantum leap!
DCraven |
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| mortality - 8/12/2010 6:42 AM
Big Bob - So, you are saying that taking them out of their natural environment, exposing them to un-natural gravity, reducing the amount of protective slime "makes no difference" on survival rates? WOW!! You just went against what all fisheries biologists agree on. I'd say that is a quantum leap!
DCraven
Yep. No appreciable difference. Like going to the ER with a gunshot wound to the leg and then getting a paper cut along the way. And NO, it doesn't go against what all fisheries biologist agree on. |
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