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Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | After speaking with one of the gals taking calls I don't think they are writting down any resoning or comments. I think they are just trying to get the basics and answer the next call. I understand there has been a rally cry for those that want to see spearing opened up on Cass Lake and that 1% of the licensed anglers in this state, are also calling only to support the of lifting the ban. If you haven't made your call please do so. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Any updates on this? I searching online for some sort of news report on the status, but didn't find anything. Has the Governor made a decision yet?
TB |
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| Nothing yet.
but this is funny
http://www.startribune.com/galleries/92541189.html?elr=KArks8Lcac_Q...
Edited by Muskiefool 5/22/2010 8:22 AM
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| so has anyone heard a word about this bill. i know it has alot of bad ju-ju associated with it. it wouldn't make sense for this to be passed with all the press it is receiving. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I think the Republicans are milking this for all it's worth. Why cut a scandal like this short? |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I'm not sure I'd go so far to call it a "scandal," but I certainly agree that it is an odd request (to open Cass Lake for spearing), given the thousands of other lakes that Minnesotans can apparently already go to, if they want to spear pike. I guess I really do not see this as an efficient (or wise) use of their resources--especially when the DNR is against it, judging by everything I've read.
It's really too bad that these things don't have to have DNR approval before going on a bill. It's no different than our C&R Spring musky season debacle here in Wisconsin: Some politician, not knowing any better (we'll give them the benefit of the doubt for a minute) and wanting to please their constituents, adds something to a bill. Unfortunately they really don't do the due diligence that they should, and then it's up to the concerned public to be burdened with proving that this unfortunate change shouldn't in fact be allowed. So then the concerned folks (musky anglers, in this case) look like elitists...when in fact the problem was the series of moronic decisions made that led up to that point in the first place.
It really doesn't give you great faith that "big brother" even finished high school, now does it?
TB |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Tom, the Game and Fish Bill has turned into a scandal. 4 articles in 2 papers in 4 days (one being on the front page) usually = a scandal. There's a lot more to this G&F Bill that's got people really ticked off. It's just the spotlight we put on it got others looking at it as well (a 1.5 million dollar walkin program that was to be paid for by the new 2-line fee as an example). |
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Posts: 3158
| Im FOR the walk in program,,,,the only way Im ever gonna own land is when they put me in my grave plot
pheasant hunting beats muskies
Ernest Hemingway said,,,Pheasant hunting is worth??? has much has you HAVE to pay for it!!!!! |
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| Is this the same bill that has allows 2 lines for trolling? I have seen that the walleye folks are starting to call in to support it on a few forums, not sure if it is the same bill though....BR |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | The bill will allow people to purchase a $10 stamp to add the extra line. But if you purchase this stamp for 2 lines you can only have 1/2 the possession limits. Even if you are only using one line you still only get half just by owning the stamp. There's a lot of fine print to this bill that most are not aware of. |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | The 2 line bill would allow anyone to use 2 lines in if they purchase the $10 adder. Ben the problem is that the money generated from the 2 line would essentially go to fund the walk-in program. The DNR is very opposed to this bill so I doubt it'll get passed. |
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Location: Warroad, Mn | There are lots of different things involved with this bill. Some good, some bad, some actually stupid (10 feet from your ATV before you can shoot a grouse, wonder who's going to measure that). Here's a link to a Star Tribune article that gives more details. http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/94639954.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUgOahccyiUiacyKUUs Doug Johnson
Edited by dougj 5/23/2010 6:17 PM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Never having fished in Minnesota, I was unaware that you cannot currently use 2-3 lines. We've always been able to use 3 lines in Wisconsin, which I personally do not care for. To each their own I suppose, but I prefer to only use two lines when trolling alone--or four lines for the entire boat. So if I have 3 people on-board...four lines in the water. I seem to do just fine with that number of lines, and it's easy enough to handle two lines by myself. So that's what I do. Thus I would have no issue with the two line provision in the Minnesota bill. The ice-fishing argument to use three lines may be more valid, especially when using tip-ups, so I'll concede that one. But I would be just fine if WI lowered the number of lines to two, for open-water angling. And I would love to see barbless hooks for muskellunge, but that argument is a sticky wicket right now, so we won't even get into it.
But I really haven't followed all of the provisions of the bill all that closely, to be honest. So maybe it is a bit of a scandal indeed, when considered in toto. But I still can't understand the logic behind this Cass Lake spearing portion, given all the other lakes that a Minnesota resident can go spear. I just cannot imagine the rationale behind this push to open that lake for spearing, especially when the DNR is against it.
I guess maybe that's why I didn't go into politics...
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Location: Grand Rapids MN | Tom, as for Cass Lake that question has been asked time and time again and really there is no rationale so don't beat yourself up over it. It really just comes down to be regulated from lake when spearers feel their method of "angling" is no different than line/hook. Harvest is harvest in a sense. Which I can see to a point but the nature of the spearing doesn't allow for release so its difficult to set and enforce slot sizes and other regulations to help maintain a quality level for that particular water. Whereas with line/hook if you catch a walleye, pike, muskie, etc in a slot limit there's a huge increase in percentage of releasing that fish. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Well, that's exactly it, isn't it? It's nothing more than a harvest mentality. And we have WAY TOO MUCH of a harvest mentality these days, as far as I am concerned. Our fisheries simply cannot sustain harvest of that magnitude.
Who hasn't caught more fish when they were a kid, than we do today? And who hasn't caught bigger panfish when they fished 20 years ago, than they do today?
While these are only two examples when there are likely many more than can be mentioned, I think it goes to show the basic problem we have in this society: Bonk, then bake. Repeat.
I certainly have no major issue with keeping a few fish to eat now and then, but these stories of groups of anglers taking 40+ panfish per day. WOW! How is a fishery going to sustain this sort of pressure? Surely we aren't going to hear the word "subsistence" used to justify this level of harvest? I'll might believe that if I saw a bunch of 12-14 foot aluminum boats out there, powered by old, beat-up, 15-20hp outboard engines. But I haven't seen many of those out there fishing lately, so I am not quite sure where the need is. So some call that kind of thing 'harvest,' but in many cases I'd simply call it greed. Just because you can take that many fish, doesn't mean you should. That's just me though--so take this for what it's worth.
But I agree that with spearing, there simply is no choice that ends well for the fish. But hey, they are only fish. So what if we kill too many of them...the DNR will simply drop in some more, and life will be good again. And if that doesn't work out so well, then we'll simply blame it on the Indians, because everyone knows they harvest way too many fish...right? It couldn't be the rest of us--we're just taking the left-overs before they are all gone...right?
While watching that politician lay out this Cass Lake spearing proposal for the committee, all I could do was shake my head--because it was quite obvious who was driving that bus.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 5/23/2010 9:55 PM
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Location: The desert | Most anglers will claim they caught more and bigger fish 10 years ago, no matter the state nor the species. Often times the data doesn't support this sentiment. After all, anglers never embellish anything do they? |
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Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | Two points, one is this piece of legislation is not the end of it. It is simply the begining of the end of it. In other words this is an attempt to get a foothold on many of these issues. Once they have that, the rest will come in smaller dose's...rest assure all being a DOSE!
The political process in my mind would be greatly improved and enhanced if each issue had to stand on it's own merit. These riders are killing good legislation, or shirtailing their way in on good legislation. What's even sadder are the legislators that have created some of the riders! If we trust them blindly they will believe we are blind! |
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| spearers claim they DO practice catch and release,,,I run the show booth for The twin cities chapter of MI and we do the general sportshows and have speaers stop by,,,they claim that their version of catch and release is to simply choose NOT to drop the spear when a certain size fish swims in= their version of catch and release,,,not agreeing with it just passing on what their view is. |
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Location: Grand Rapids MN | They call it "Look-&-Release" and I hope more and more pass on that mindset. There has been huge changes in the direction of preservation by sportsmen in all outdoor activities over the years and maybe this will take hold in spearing as well. I have nothing against spearing at all; I just don't see the need to stick trophy fish. I would be looking for eaters.
Getting of the subject of the original post but I agree with Pointer in that people embelish a bit about the past and that things are better today. I don't recall ever catching so many 20"+ walleyes from smaller lakes 15-20 years ago. I know it drives some people nuts when they take a trip only to hit the bite and catch hundreds of fish with many big fish and are only able to keep a handful. I personally like catching lots of fish and still able to have some for the dinner table. Also this saves a lot of money in stocking programs by allowing natural reproduction to do the work.
Edited by Targa01 5/24/2010 12:23 PM
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| So if you buy the second line provision, would your muskie possesion limit be 1 or 0? If it was 0, would you be in violation for landing a fish? You would be in possesion of the fish at that point. Just something to ponder. |
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Location: The desert | Guest - 5/24/2010 12:35 PM
So if you buy the second line provision, would your muskie possesion limit be 1 or 0? If it was 0, would you be in violation for landing a fish? You would be in possesion of the fish at that point. Just something to ponder.
Simply landing a fish does not constitute possession. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Well I would argue (from personal experience, both seeing them caught and kept, and catching them myself) that in areas where the fish are easily accessible, the tendency is to over-harvest. But in the data you cite Mike, does it account for additional stocking done by Conservation Departments, in response to declining population estimates?
I'll admit that this is a complicated issue, to be sure; one not likely to be solved by a bunch of folks on an internet musky forum (I know...that's heresy). But just looking at the positive trends in the Muskellunge fishery alone should be more than enough evidence to support the value of C&R. The number of 50"+ fish has steadily increased on almost a yearly basis, according the MI Lunge Log. So I simply refuse to believe that incessant harvesting of fish stocks in many lakes where these fish are easily accessible, is sustainable.
As an aside, I took the Admiral out on the boat yesterday, into the large part of Green Bay. That place is freakin' HUGE! We motored for about 15-20 minutes at 25mph, all the while passing over or near prime musky habitat. And it got me thinking...the fish have a significant advantage out in the vast expanse of that place. Most anglers simply aren't going to put in the effort or the time to get at them. So while I still worry about over-harvest in the southern part of the bay (and the rivers) where these fish are relatively accessible at various times, the vastness of the rest of the bay is a great 'buffer' for the population.
It also made me realize that I need a MUCH bigger boat... 
TB
Edited by tcbetka 5/24/2010 12:49 PM
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Location: The desert | Certainly if you're speaking to just musky populations alone, yes they could be over harvested fairly easily. Perhaps I was mixing both this thread and the "sick of harvesters" thread and applying your statement to a broad multispecies viewpoint. But speaking to the sentiment that "15 years ago the fishing was so much better....." I tend to dismiss these fairly quickly. I can't count how many times I've heard something along those lines after a day when the fish simply were not biting, they are generally old timers too. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Well, but I can tell you that nearly EVERY angler I talk to who fishes the reservoir I grew up on, says the same thing--they used to catch a lot more fish, and the fish that they used to catch were significantly larger than those being caught today. You name the species...the story is the same. And there is no substantial muskellunge population in that water body, so we aren't talking about muskies. This isn't about people having "bad days" on the water--this is a trend that many individuals have noticed and comment about at the land owner's association meetings. So is it just this body of water, or is this an example of a more widespread issue? I honestly don't know, because I really don't fish many other water bodies in my home town. But I've noticed a significant tendency towards fewer and smaller fish in that water for the last several years, as have others. And while there certainly may be other causes (I haven't done a formal study), I'd argue that enough others have made the observation that there is probably something to it.
Therefore I stand behind my previous statements and will argue that bodies of water with easily accessible populations of sought-after fish species, will tend to be overfished. So while I certainly encourage more people to take their kids fishing and spend time together as a family unit (for example), I also encourage stewardship and sound use of the resource. And if this includes only taking a few fish home for a meal when you may have taken 2-3 times as many in years past, then so be it. Call me an elitist, I guess...
TB |
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Location: Iowa Great Lakes | Tom the spearing guys want Cass for 1 reason, big pike. Go on sites that have spearing forums, you don't see many pics of fish under 30" even though most claim look and release. Kellot can vouch for this since I know he fights a few spearing guys on another site |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Well, I guess that's proof enough then isn't it? If they are looking to spear the lake because there are big pike there, and the lake hasn't been speared previously...
"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."
TB |
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Location: The desert | tcbetka - 5/24/2010 8:27 PM
Well, but I can tell you that nearly EVERY angler I talk to who fishes the reservoir I grew up on, says the same thing--they used to catch a lot more fish, and the fish that they used to catch were significantly larger than those being caught today. You name the species...the story is the same. And there is no substantial muskellunge population in that water body, so we aren't talking about muskies. This isn't about people having "bad days" on the water--this is a trend that many individuals have noticed and comment about at the land owner's association meetings. So is it just this body of water, or is this an example of a more widespread issue? I honestly don't know, because I really don't fish many other water bodies in my home town. But I've noticed a significant tendency towards fewer and smaller fish in that water for the last several years, as have others. And while there certainly may be other causes (I haven't done a formal study), I'd argue that enough others have made the observation that there is probably something to it.
Therefore I stand behind my previous statements and will argue that bodies of water with easily accessible populations of sought-after fish species, will tend to be overfished. So while I certainly encourage more people to take their kids fishing and spend time together as a family unit (for example), I also encourage stewardship and sound use of the resource. And if this includes only taking a few fish home for a meal when you may have taken 2-3 times as many in years past, then so be it. Call me an elitist, I guess...
TB
Could it be that there is a lopsided forage base and the "big fish that everyone used to catch" are simply eating real food and not fisherman's offerings or could it be something else? I've creeled 2 reservoirs and have heard from many, many, many people day in and day out that the fishing isn't what it used to be years ago. Yet when we do are sampling and crunch our numbers we feel that the populations are not only healthy but offer good size structures as well. Fisheries are continuously changing. Perch and crappie can be cyclical and this can be even more present in reservoirs as opposed to lakes.
Fisherman are known to embellish things, just watch the pictures this year and the comments that likely follow judging the sizes. Some fish WILL be embellished, whether on purpose or simply through a lack of experience/knowledge. Basing opinions about fisheries as a whole based solely on angler opinions isn't the greatest way to form an opinion, which I know you know. You also need to examine how your body of water is managed. Is it put/take or put-grow-take? There are so many other factors playing into fish populations that lumping everything on harvest is a bit heavy, IMO. |
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| They have a letter stating their support for the bill, then asking people to tell the Gov they want to spear Cass. I suppose as a sidebar to the $2,000,000.00 loss in revenue.
Social programs for kids, land owners and a Pike in every Pot.
Oh and economic and racial discrimination for those that cant afford a boat or are Mexican or Asian.
Great Bill, how do you support something like that.
Call if you haven't, this will be on-gong for a few more days. |
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Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | I can't think of too many that would argue a decline in the quality of fish in 96+% of the lakes in northern Minnesota. (that's a ton of lakes) There are exceptions of enhanced fisheries growing larger fish by particular species. But without exception most of the lakes have seen a decline in the quality of size in most species present over the last 30 years. Just Brainerd area north... this is almost the case for four species in every lake. I recall being invited into a "secret" lake in the 60's where we caught and released L.M & S.M bass with great regularity the whole time we were camped there. The fish ranged from 1lb. up to around 7 lbs. With the best 6 fish going over 30 lbs as weighed and recorded prior to release. Several large pike were also caught & released. There were so many fish & so little time! Giant sunfish, and big beautiful black crappies 14" or so. We did eat Crappies while we were there for two meals. Two fish apiece, all the rest were released. I was back in there a few years back. There's a road now and you don't have to carry everything in. We caught fish, mostly just L.M & some Sunnies. Numbers were fair to good. Size was absolutely smaller. We never saw a fish even over 4lbs. Wasn't a weather related deal as we timed the trip to the bite, and it was on. Pressure & harvest go hand in hand. |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Veto'd!!!!!!
A huge thank you to everyone who called in!!!!!!! |
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