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| Holy Cow. Speared into a desert? You've got to be kidding me? I guess I'm gonna have to spell it out here. How many fish do you think that they're spearing per year? Do you think that number even remotely comes close to the number of fish that are being taken with rod and reel? I think you'll be surprised at the numbers.
I know this might be hard for some of you to believe, but these people are not savages. They have these things called regulations, you might have heard of them? Oh yeah, the rest of the country has them as well. Why in God's name would they want to destroy a resource that they also use. It doesn't make any sense, at all. Not even a little bit of sense. It's equivalent to slashing the tires on a city bus, and then trying to ride it. Make sense?
The only difference between Native Americans and the rest of the population is how the fish are taken. Oh yeah, and the fact that they're actually taking a fraction of what "the white man" takes. |
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Location: McGuire AFB, NJ | Guest you crack me up!
Outraged, no not at all. Just sharing a history lesson with the less informed. It’s clearly apparent that some lack the educational background to fully comprehend this topic (this means you). Federal law is federal law......end of story.
As for my contributions, anyone who knows me on this board knows the sacrifices I have made for this great country.
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| "Check out the numbers. The amount of fish taken each year by these people is such a fraction of the total number that it should not be an issue. "
Really? C'mon. Look at the property values on Red Lake when it was overfished. Cannery's were ideled are no back on-line and increasing quotas. Look at the boom/bust cycles on Mille Lacs. It takes more than a fraction to make lakes this size boom and bust like they do.
If they want to net fine but do they have to do it when they are trying to make babies? |
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Location: Hudson, WI | You're right. This sounds like a WONDERFUL long range plan for our favorite fish. Maybe I'll join the Cedar Lake Restoration Project. Is that in the ceded territory?
Edited by Moltisanti 4/22/2010 2:53 PM
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Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | I agree with Hamskie- glad I don't have to make the decisions on this one! Particularly this: "The bands say those rights include not only off-reservation hunting, fishing and gathering, but perhaps also co-management of much of the region's timber and mining -- the first such claims made by Minnesota Chippewa." I have no idea how that would play out, but seems to me like a much bigger deal than the fishing, all things considered. Not judging either way... just commenting.
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Location: Hudson, WI | Intelligence? The numbers have been estimated on Bone Lake to be between 250 and 350 adult muskies in the last two winter spearing seasons. On a 1700 acre lake. Yes, this is a fraction...like about 1/2. Pine Grove Resort registered 74 muskies on their guest musky board in 06. 84 in '07. 32 in '08, and 14 in '09. Nice try. |
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Location: The desert | Feel free to read what the guest Intelligence? wrote. He is completely and entirely spot on. My adviser and professor at Point was the one on the stand in Federal Court for the Wisconsin DNR in 1985. I've cited some things he said here in the past. If you people knew what the Native Americans were going after compared to what they got (the now status quo) you'd be thanking your lucky stars.
There is a bigger world with more people from different walks of life out there. They even come in different colors! Simply because the white man want, doesn't mean it is what the white man should get. What am I saying, it is so hard being white. But feel free to whine about how rough you have it. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | this is gonna make 3 pages a stupid ... isn't it? |
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| And you honestly think that its more likely that a tiny minority of people overfished a lake? OR do you think that maybe the massive majority if people that fish that body of water might be just a tad more responsible?
This is the same ignorant mentality that people took with their stance on blacks. Everyone thought they had smaller brains, attacked white women, were more closely related to monkeys than white people. All because of ignorance. Indians are not abusing natural resources. I'd be willing to bet they have a lot more reverence for nature than most people on this board. They are not taking more than their quota. Yeah, you hear about those select incidents where someone does. That's not specific to Indians.
This is part of their culture. How would you all like it if someone tried to take yours? |
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Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | jonnysled - 4/22/2010 3:00 PM
this is gonna make 3 pages a stupid ... isn't it?
HA! Yep. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7OHG7tHrNM |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Got me there, Mike. Since I am upset about a valued resource being over-speared, I am intolerant of all races, colors and creeds. Funny how a kid from Stevens Point who now lives in rural Utah and has probably spent less than 10 days in an urban environment in his entire life tells me I'm "ignorant" of other cultures. Where does your wealth of experience come from? |
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Location: Minnesota | Not that this changes anything with treaty rights - but in MN we have a constitutional right to hunt and fish. In 1998 the following was an amendment to the MN Constitution;
“Hunting and fishing and the taking of game and fish are a valued part of our
heritage that shall be forever preserved for the people and shall be managed by law
and regulation for the public good.”
So the discussion about rights and privileges is slightly off course - carry on with the downward spiral of this thread.
Edtior's Note:
'shall be managed by law
and regulation for the public good'
And by this definition, it is a privilege which can be taken away, regulated by the agency in charge of managing and regulation. it is NOT your RIGHT to fish, it's a privilege you obtain by buying a license and abiding by regulation and law therein. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Intelligence, you got me, too. 300 muskies were not speared out of Bone Lake by the tribes in the last 2 years. The Polk County Band of Conspirators made the whole thing up. |
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| Alright, to get back on point. There is no sense in arguing. If the Indians go ahead with this, they'll probably get arrested. Because that goes against a Federal treaty, they'll sue the state and win. It'll go to the supreme court, just like in Wisconsin. It's going to be a win win for them regardless of what happens. |
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Location: McGuire AFB, NJ | Ashamed...no. Inlightened...maybe. I have done nothin do help the native american cause what so ever, I post racist comments on a musky fishing board under the name guest...beacuse I'm affraid to reveal my identity. |
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| There was absolutely nothing I posted that was racist, I simply pointed out the hypocrisy in your rant. And with you proving my point, I can now retire and watch this " discussion " crumble
Carry on |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Intelligence? - 4/22/2010 3:02 PM
Indians are not abusing natural resources. I'd be willing to bet they have a lot more reverence for nature than most people on this board. They are not taking more than their quota. Yeah, you hear about those select incidents where someone does. That's not specific to Indians.
I hate to jump in on this but couldn’t take it with this comment. Don’t be too generalized with statements like this. Most do not abuse, but there are still plenty that do. Just like there are plenty of the “white man” that abuses the resources. It is those that do abuse it that has everyone hot under the collar. When they do abuse it, it is just not by one, two or three over the quota. Take a look at the Big Carr incident a few years ago. It’s not by spearing/netting a bunch and dispersing amongst the tribe(s) that gets people angry. It is by harvesting a bunch of fish, and leaving them to rot in the back of a truck, a ditch, or somewhere in the woods. Lots of pictures out there that have illustrated this type of waste.
It is their right, and I can live with that. What bothers me is the disregard by those that do abuse it, and with the severity that they completely disrespect the resource. I have the same distain for any general angler whether they are white or any other race that.
Some have mentioned it and are right. The general anglers as a whole do take a lot more fish out of a system, usually, than the tribes. I think some of it can be said to be because some anglers are “afraid” that if they don’t keep a fish the “Indians” will take it anyway so they better get their share. I hear it all the time. It is this type of mentality that is ruining a fishery more than the Native Americans themselves. Until that type of mentality changes there is always going to be friction.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4e3-YK3rVA |
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| WOW if this isn't a friendly thread!
Just a couple more weeks untill we start arguing about proper nets, photographing fish, trolling is cheating, measureing under 40 fish, release police, and so on....
As long as no one is breaking any laws, It is legal. Some people may not agree with those laws. And I hope if someone feels that strongly about something they lobby for change. btw,Good luck with that one. |
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Location: Smith Creek | Intelligence? - 4/22/2010 2:43 PM
Holy Cow. Speared into a desert? You've got to be kidding me? I guess I'm gonna have to spell it out here. How many fish do you think that they're spearing per year? Do you think that number even remotely comes close to the number of fish that are being taken with rod and reel? I think you'll be surprised at the numbers.
I know this might be hard for some of you to believe, but these people are not savages. They have these things called regulations, you might have heard of them? Oh yeah, the rest of the country has them as well. Why in God's name would they want to destroy a resource that they also use. It doesn't make any sense, at all. Not even a little bit of sense. It's equivalent to slashing the tires on a city bus, and then trying to ride it. Make sense?
The only difference between Native Americans and the rest of the population is how the fish are taken. Oh yeah, and the fact that they're actually taking a fraction of what "the white man" takes.
First off, no they aren't regulated, 2nd, remember Red Lake? Almost every single walleye was removed. 3rd, fish are speared while in the act of spawning, and if they go over the quota "suggested" to them by the DNR, citizens of the U.S. are not allowed to harvest any.
Can't wait for opener on Butternut, we can keep 1 walleye per day this year.
Edited by Flambeauski 4/22/2010 3:40 PM
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Location: The desert | Moltisanti - 4/22/2010 3:11 PM
Got me there, Mike. Since I am upset about a valued resource being over-speared, I am intolerant of all races, colors and creeds. Funny how a kid from Stevens Point who now lives in rural Utah and has probably spent less than 10 days in an urban environment in his entire life tells me I'm "ignorant" of other cultures. Where does your wealth of experience come from?
Actually I grew up in Milwaukee, but you're right there are no minorities there. Half the time in Hartland the other time in Milwaukee/Kenosha/Racine and with a year and a half spent in Chicago. Keep on with you're ignorance though, it's working well thus far. Just like your broad generalizations you've made about the Native Americans, you've made about me. You're proving the ignorant point to a T.
Do you have any knowledge of what the Native Americans wanted/proposed when the treaty case went to the Supreme Court in the 80's? Judging by your incredibly informed responses thus far, my guess would be no. |
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| You just proved my point. Key word is "incident." The fact that were discussion an incident is exactly my point. It is a rare occurence. You can't make judgements and decisions on things that are of rare occurance. Just because there's one moron that lives in my town, that doesn't mean that everyone is a moron. Those people that do that stuff give everyone else the stigma. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 300 or 500 or 1000 muskies speared isn't the point, as hard as that might be for many of us to accept. The point is the tribes have the right to spear/net/capture those fish and the language in the treaty is quite clear that they have the right to do so in any manner chosen, worded obviously to stop the exact line of thought expressed here about what's 'modern' and what isn't; that doesn't matter, the issue was anticipated and covered in the Treaty and that's that. The Tribes received that right as partial 'compensation' when the US Government forced the ceding of their lands and sent them to reservation. Those rights have been quite recently upheld by the highest court in this country by a RIGHT leaning Court.
if you want to be angry about this, be angry at the Government that wrote those treaties and displaced these people instead of absorbing them equally into the general population. And ask yourself why it was handled that way. The answer doesn't say much positive for those folks.... and perhaps us, collectively.
If any one might be truly interested in seeing the winter spearing regulated, assist your State reps, DNR and GLIFWC folks in finding some common ground to discuss this issue perhaps offering something positive for the future. |
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| Oh they're not regulated? Wow, that's news to
me. I'm pretty sure that they have their own law enforcement agencies that enforce their regulations? Yeah they do. I know you're next remark is gonna be something like well they must not care then because people still do it. Yeah, they do care. They need the resources just like everyone else does. Why would they want to destroy that? It doesn't make any sense. Why don't you look at some of their regulations and tell me how they compare to ours. Repercussions for breaking laws is quite a bit worse then most of ours. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | GLIFWC. Read. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Okay, Mike, you are a much more "cultured"person than I gave you credit for. As far as the Supreme Court cases, which were you referring to? Without going into ridiculous detail, non-natives made out pretty good on the deal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not crying about how the poor white man is getting screwed. I just have a general dislike of someone exercising their power at the expense of a fishery. Nothing good can come of it. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I just have a general dislike of someone exercising their power at the expense of a fishery.'
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If you want to be angry about this, be angry at the Government that wrote those treaties and displaced these people instead of absorbing them equally into the general population. And ask yourself why it was handled that way. The answer doesn't say much positive for those folks.... and perhaps us, collectively. |
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Location: The desert | The Voigt Decision case, is the case I am referring to.
Out of curiosity, roughly how many walleyes do you think Native Americans have speared in the last 26 years?
Edit to add: How man walleyes do you estimate the general angling population harvests per year?
Edited by Pointerpride102 4/22/2010 4:02 PM
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| Some people get it and some people don't. I could not possibly agree more with what Steve just said. |
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