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| Have there been any studies to verify that a large muskies DNA can carry on from generation to generation . I know the forage in the body of water has alot to do with it , but in the case of deer you always want the buck with the nice rack to make it thru rut so his genes get carried on . Could that be the case with muskies also ? Might have gotten alittle off topic sorry |
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| hmmm do they make ammunition that doesnt kill a deer?..... |
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| I would expect a 10yr old kid to make the comparison but am I the only one that thinks this thread is totally ridiculous? Muskies cant be compared to deer and deer can not be compared to muskies.
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| SVT - 10/29/2009 5:28 PM
hmmm do they make ammunition that doesnt kill a deer?.....
They make some that would require sneaking up right behind it and shooting it behind the ear like you see in mob movies, does that count? 
What I want to know is this: If you're going to tranqilize a deer, take a picture of it, and send it on its merry way, why not just take up photography? Save yourself the trouble and just carry a camera. Why, you could probably even download a shutter sound that sounds like a gun going off.
*BANG!!!* "got 'em!"
LOL!!!!!!
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| very simple. ever eat a musky. venison,s a lot better. |
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Location: lake x...where the hell is it? | esoxaddict - 10/29/2009 6:05 PM
SVT - 10/29/2009 5:28 PM
hmmm do they make ammunition that doesnt kill a deer?.....
They make some that would require sneaking up right behind it and shooting it behind the ear like you see in mob movies, does that count?
What I want to know is this: If you're going to tranqilize a deer, take a picture of it, and send it on its merry way, why not just take up photography? Save yourself the trouble and just carry a camera. Why, you could probably even download a shutter sound that sounds like a gun going off.
*BANG!!!* "got 'em!"
LOL!
now thats funny.lmao!
Edited by jay lip ripper 10/29/2009 7:09 PM
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Location: Not Where I Want To Be | I agree Venison is much tastier |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I just finished a venison string spaghetti squash dish. It was good. We went out this evening and cut a pickup load of hardwood for the fireplace when the temps are below zero this winter, and passing by Keith's stand about 100 yards away saw a nice 8 within 10 feet of the truck. It just stood there. Raining, so no hunting today.
The passion is much the same, but the season much shorter. No, we don't 'release' any deer but we do 'pass' quite a few. Deciding when to touch off that arrow or squeeze that trigger and when not to is as intensely personal as any decision to harvest any animal or fish, and some folks are no less vocal with their positions on deer harvest as Muskie anglers are about CPR. I love the hunt, and especially enjoy bow hunting. It's quiet, peaceful, and relaxing, but... when that big boy walks through, the adrenaline rush is wicked, at least for this old man. |
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| You could always take up roping deer like cattle - that'd be interesting.
On a side note, I'm not completely sure if this applies to muskies but studies on other fish species have shown compensatory mortality when harvest removed. Natural mortality will be lower with fishing mortality present. When the fish are no longer harvested natural mortality increases. It's more of a density dependence interaction, so may not apply so much to muskies. If you think about it though, harvesting some muskies would decrease intraspecific competition and allow growth rates to be at a higher level. I'm not saying I advocate or would keep a muskie, but as stated before it could be a good tool for managing some water bodies. |
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| Uhm, I really can't buy into the compensatory mortality thing.
Compensatory mortality would be represented in the human population as, "When wars are ended, compensatory mortality will increase."
Yes, more cancer deaths, drunk driving, old age, heart attacks, etc. etc.
You can't do any of those if you are already dead. |
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| oddball - 10/29/2009 5:27 PM
Have there been any studies to verify that a large muskies DNA can carry on from generation to generation . I know the forage in the body of water has alot to do with it , but in the case of deer you always want the buck with the nice rack to make it thru rut so his genes get carried on . Could that be the case with muskies also ? Might have gotten alittle off topic sorry
I think the science verifying that repeated selection of the larger specimens in fishery stock can end up with a decreased average size, pretty well proves this. |
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| I'm not asking you to buy it, but it happens. Not many population dynamic models apply to humans so that comparison is inappropriate. I'm not sure what you mean by "You can't do any of those if you are already dead". Maybe you don't understand the concept. |
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| There is no releasing a trophy buck. that's the difference. Not only that, but even if deer hunting became catch and release (i know, funny) they would starve to death or get hit by cars. Deer hunting has alot to do with population control. |
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Location: Chicago | Muskie Treats - 10/29/2009 10:50 AM
Which fisheries folks are encouraging harvest?
Butternut lake, north of park Falls has a suggested slot harvest with the reasons why at the public launch. |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
You're comparing a high density animal that reproduces very well with a low density fish that can't reproduce fast enough on most lakes to keep up with keeping fish for the wall.
That's about as apples to oranges of a comparison as you can have.
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Location: Oswego, IL | When you hunt Muskie, you dont hunt to kill.
When you hunt Whitetail, you dont hunt to release.
Unless you keep everything you do to yourself, there will always be a "Guest" to tell you your wrong. |
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| This discussion was had last year of the year before. I understand the tradition of deer hunting. I used to hunt myself and enjoyed it thoroughly. I hunted for the meat, but the trophy aspect was a bonus. What rubs me is people saying it is two completely different things....apples to oranges. I guess I don't see it that way.
My point is that while deer populations are high, the population of the large (150"+) bucks is comparatively low. The "trophy" muskies and "trophy" whitetails are similarly hard to come by. I don't think the argument is based on the whole deer population, but instead on the "trophy" population.
If you are going to kill a deer for table fare, why not kill a doe or a young buck? From my experience these are far better for the crock pot than the 5 1/2 year old buck.
It is now possible to reproduce the rack on Brewtus the 150"+ just as it is possible to reproduce Bertha the 50"+ fish hanging over your fireplace. Why not take a picture of Brewtus and let him walk? Kill a doe and feed the family.
The argument that you hear for C&R is to maintain the genetics of that specific fish. I understand that the large fish are usually females. I also realize that in deer the male only contributes to roughly 20% of the genetic make-up of the off-spring, but he does still contribute does he not? Would you rather he breed that doe with the good genes or twinkle toes the basket rack buck?
It seems the argument always comes back to tradition and this is what feeds the family and this is the way we have always done it. Well......that was the tradition with trophy fish as well.
I am here for discussion more than anything....I really don't care if people shoot deer or not. It just seems the two are closer than some people make them out to be.
Here is an example that may fit better than muskies. I enjoy chasing Smallmouth Bass when I can't get to a muskie lake. In our lake here, we have a high population of Smallies. I do it for pleasure, but we will eat one every now and then. Which fish do you suppose I take home? The 2lber or the 4lber?
Edited by muskydeceiver 10/30/2009 3:17 PM
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Location: Minneconia | Ummm..isn't the young buck where the eventual 150+ comes from? Not sure what you're getting at there |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
You can manage trophy deer herds very easily while still being able to kill as many as you need for the table.
Not so with muskies.
It isn't about the trophy genetics, the difference is one animal is prolific and does not need protection to survive.
If muskies weren't protected in many areas they would be virtually extinct.
JS |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If deer weren't protected and hunted only by number of tags determined to be safe for the carrying capacity of the area, deer would be nearly extinct in many areas. In fact, until management was assigned to the State in Wisconsin, in many areas there were nearly none because of harvest. Same deal, over harvest of a resource corrected by limits and regulations that protect it.
For a very long time 'as many as I needed' was one buck a year. That's all I could shoot, and it was a good regulation at the time. The difference of late is habitat improvement for deer coincides with rural development, agriculture, and destruction of the old growth forests...pretty much a blueprint of Wisconsin and Minnesota over the last 50 years; coupled with few killing winters in the last 15 years. Darned things do really well in rural areas, and REALLY well in farming communities, especially if the winters don't kill 'em.. |
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| sworrall - 10/30/2009 6:15 PM
[...]
The difference of late is habitat improvement for deer coincides with rural development, agriculture, and destruction of the old growth forests...pretty much a blueprint of Wisconsin and Minnesota over the last 50 years; coupled with few killing winters in the last 15 years...
Sounds like exactlly the opposite of what would be conducive to good populations of muskies. |
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| Hunt and photograph. Hunt and shoot.
Catch and release. Catch and keep (the really big ones).
So long as everyone stays within the law, it is up to them. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I don't know about that addict, if shoreline/pollution/etc conservation/protection is good, with people comes taxes and water use, with water use and taxes comes management, and the folks in Minnesota and Wisconsin enjoy some pretty cool muskie fisheries where there were none before. If the all that stuff isn't good enough and NR isn't in the cards, stocking where NR doesn't happen still makes for some pretty good fishing.
Ultimately, Cast is right. |
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| Dirt Esox - 10/30/2009 3:19 PM
Ummm..isn't the young buck where the eventual 150+ comes from? Not sure what you're getting at there
Do you know which Button Buck is going to grow up to be the 150"+? Not every buck has the gentetics to get that big. Some grow a basket and that is it. Shoot him and let the guy with the serious horns do the breeding. That is what I am getting at. |
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| Shoot the deer with a paintball gun. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Illegal in many states as a form of harassing a game animal, Ranger. |
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| Dangnation!
Ok, how about being satisfied with using a white marble in a wrist rocket slingshot. The shooter gets to see the hit just before the buck rakes him down and then kicks him a bunch. Any CO would consider that a fair fight and ticket only the winner. Which means no ticket because the marble shooter is groaning on the ground and the buck is already in the next county.
Glad I can help resolve these difficult issues. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Ranger, my friend, as always, thank you. |
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Location: Minneconia | muskydeceiver - 10/31/2009 12:09 PM
Dirt Esox - 10/30/2009 3:19 PM
Ummm..isn't the young buck where the eventual 150+ comes from? Not sure what you're getting at there
Do you know which Button Buck is going to grow up to be the 150"+? Not every buck has the gentetics to get that big. Some grow a basket and that is it. Shoot him and let the guy with the serious horns do the breeding. That is what I am getting at.
It's been proven that a buck first year growth means nothing in trying to interpolate future antler size, whether a first year 8 pt or spike buck. Let them all go and shoot the 160+'s that will make everybody's future better. There's a reason why there is a lack of large bucks in some areas, it's people(especially shotgun party hunters here in Iowa)who wack every 1-2.5 year old they see, especially citing the excuse, "it has bad genetics and wouldn't amount to anything"....WRONG. Shoot does and 3.5 year old bucks, let the little ones at least try to reach potential. |
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Location: Minneconia | Genetics is NOT the limiting factor in antler growth most of the time, it's usually lack of the correct nutrition. |
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