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Posts: 8844
| Out-of-state guides probably bring in some out of state anglers, who buy out of state licenses, that generate revenue for MN that you wouldn't ordinarily have. But in terms of the fishery? It doesn't matter where the guide is from. Even if all the guides from other states dried up and blew away, those out of state anglers will still come. Even if there WERE no guides, those anglers will still come. The cat's out of the bag. Everyone who fishes for muskies knows about MN. Guides or no guides, that's where people are going to go, because the fishing is better than WI, IL, IN, TN, KY, and all the other states where everyone fishing in MN is from. You can take it out on the guides who aren't originally from MN, but all the bickering in the world over whose fault it is isn't going to change the fact that everyone is, and always WILL BE fishing where the best fishing is. I'd rather have someone who may not have caught many muskies fishing with a guide from some other state than out there on their own.
When it comes down to it, it's ALL about money. No matter what side of the fence you sit on, whether it's a guide trying to make a living, the DNR trying to make money, the locals wanting the bars and resorts full, the truth is that big muskies = big money. And the people who stand to gain financially from big muskies WILL.
The other unfortunate truth that nobody seems to want to admit is that all the argument surrounding this issue boils down to the fact that many of muskie anglers in MN just simply don't want people from other states fishing on "their" lakes and catching all of "their" fish. That's an undesratandable position. But why won't anyone just come out and admit it? If it's all about too many people fishing, and being concerned for the well being of the fisheries, than why not go through the proper channels? Why not get tighter regulations passed, get more lakes stocked, increase fees for out of state licenses? Why take it out on the out of state guides? They're just doing what any guide with a half ounce of #*#* between his ears would do, and fishing where the fishing is good, because if they don't someone else will. Customers want to catch big muskies, and they are going to go wherever they need to go in order to do that. So whay spend your summer fishing muskies in IN, in 85 degree water, two days a week, for a handful of 40" fish, when you could go to MN and guide full time, catch big muskies for your clients, and actually be able to EAT at the end of the week? |
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Location: West Chicago, IL | Aaron, thanks for your response.
Mike |
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Posts: 619
| its like the plague in west central MN they just keep coming. eventually will destroy the lakes or fishing results will become so poor they will move on and destroy the next area. look at miltona right now, it looks like a muskie tournament out there almost every day. good luck catching fish out there for the next few weeks. it would be interesting to know the percentage of the population of the fish that have been caught on that lake and how many times each fish has been caught so far this yr???? |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | What keeps coming? Plague? huh? Who's going to destroy the lakes? |
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Posts: 15
| I think in the case of Local guide vs Out of state, the Out of towners IMO gain a bit more exposure due to their wide spread movements and they stay at home Local guide suffer because their exposure may be only county or state wide.
The traveller is like Wal-mart and the local is more like the Mom and pop shop. The big name vagabond guide hurts the local guy just trying to get by off his or her small area.
Bytor, Minnesotan fisherman have gotten pretty protective, however I am originally from wisconsin and have seen much more severe methods of keeping visitors away. It is just not Minn. that is protective. |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | For the third time:
I'll ask the question again, how many out of state guides are currently guiding for muskies in Minnesota or is this a vendetta against a small handful of people?
Why can't anyone answer this or the the second part of my question the answer? |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
The core argument here is about using a state's resource for profit when you don't reside in that state.
Anyone is entitled to come to MN and fish by merely buying a fishing liscence.
But you shouldn't be able to profit from public resources of another state. Many other states have already recognized that and require guides or outfitters to be residents.
The collatoral damage done by guides that go from lake to lake, leaving only when fish have become so pressured they are hard to catch and everybody and their brother is fishing on that lake because of the publicity the guides have brought to it is another debate.
There are reasons why hunters have times they can hunt, zones they can hunt in. It's to alleviate congestion of those trying to enjoy the resource and head of potential conflict.
Is fishing going to go down that road? I don't know, but it sure seems like conflict is becoming more of an issue.
I wonder how some of these out of state guides would feel if the MN boys came down to thier waters and guided all winter?
Maybe some people need to step into anothers shoes and think for a minute.
JS
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| This isn't about money for the dnr, but is being used as a cover up against the big issues mn people have with out of state guides.
1. they catch more and bigger fish than most of the locals
2. they get to fish everyday
people don't like others going to "their" lake and catching more and bigger fish. This isn't about money, tax revenue, etc. It is about people getting mad that others are catching fish day in and day out. |
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| yes, but they will never admit it.
The good and busy local guides in MN don't mind the out of state guides and are really good friends with most of them. Funny how that works...
It's about catching fish and being made about the fish they catch 100% |
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| How many anglers would be willing to pay the guide a surcharge on top of their guide fee that the guide is required to pay to the DNR that will be dedicated to muskie stocking? |
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Posts: 619
| it wont be long until fishing takes a steep downward turn and catches will become less every yr and people will lose interest. way too much pressure and not enough lakes. 1 thing about the guides that is interesting to me is that for the most part if someone has there own boat and rods, why would someone hire a guide to fish a medium to small body of water. it shouldnt be to hard to figure it out. i can see hiring a guide to fish a large body of water like leech or mille lacs, but these lakes (come on) there is only so many places to hide. i can see if you dont have equipment, etc. |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | And if we want to specifically mention Miltona, seems like I just saw an ad in Musky Hunter Magazine from the Miltona Chamber of Commerce to come musky fish Lake Miltona. Maybe we should start a thread bashing them for bringing more pressure to the lake? |
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | Wouldn't there be a more productive thread talking about stocking more MN lakes rather than bickering about who gets to fish them?
It seems like these types of discussions didn't end up on the muskie boards until Mille Lacs went dead and people who were trying to make an HONEST living decided to to venture out to other lakes rather than wash lures all day. The debate can continue, but we could also put energy in getting more lakes stocked in MN so that the resource can continue to strive.
An Out of Stater who appreciates MN. |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | Guest and Guest;
Your assumptions that out of state guides are better fishermen than locals and they are jealous is hilarious.
Not everybody, including many MN guides tell everyone on the internet about the fish they catch. Exposure doesn't meant you're better, just means people know about you.
As far as MN guides being friends with them, yah some are, some used to be. Lots of out of staters have burned bridges by talking clients to spots MN guides showed them while fishing as friends. Despite promises being made from them of never taking clients there. You'd be very suprised at some of the antics that have happened in the past.
I think a lot of MN residents and guides are angry, but not jealous.
JS
Edited by john skarie 9/8/2009 12:04 PM
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Posts: 2361
| Interesting discussion that will probably get hot before it gets over. I fish with a guide in the winter who goes out of his home state to guide during the summer(actually his home state is MN!). He has regs and restrictions he must clear before fishing where he does. Once he does that he is legal to fish and so what? Nobodies' business at that time but his own.
If MN has regulations and a guide is qualified through those regulations you are pretty much out of arguing points about where they fish and who they take fishing.
However the discussion brings up several points that are interesting and germane to most musky fisherman.
#1 Do guides help or hurt the resource in any way? IMO, they do a lot to hurt the resource for me by adding crowding, a competitive aspect to the fishing, pressuring, catching and burning fish, giving up good spots and areas that I might have worked to learn, and in my home state some actually disregard ethics, and the resource to put money in their own pocket by fishing in overly warm summer water.
#2 Do guides bring in cash to MN? Negligible if any. Build a great fishing resource and the fisherman will find it, and exploit it. Only a guide would try and make the argument that they are bringing clients into the state. We have pretty much all instate guides down here, way too much out of state fishing pressure, and it is laughable that we would need out of state guides to bring in clients. WI does not need out of state guides either, nor does MI, TN or NY. If the fisheries good, guides will bloom like flies on dog####, or roses in a garden, whichever view one takes.
#3. MN is suffering from culture shock and just haven't identified it as such........yet. They went from an underutilized trophy resource to one that now is getting lots of national attention. I recently went to Vermillion, first time ever. Amazingly interesting ecosystem, and a huge number of quality fish are available in that lake. It must have been unbelievable just a few years ago. However, what I viewed is a pressured resource, with the good spots getting hit with regularity, and some getting hammered. Guides have a lot to do with that stuff too. Too bad for you guys, but although I wouldn't call the catching in that lake up to the standard of what I might catch in northern WI, the opportunity for a real quality fish is there, but the doggone buggers aren't jumpin in the boat anymore(if they ever?). You put the angling hours up there vs fish boated and that picture isn't all that stunning, if it ever was, but the angling hours per trophy boated are probably decent. The guides, for all their knowledge weren't getting them to hop in the boat when we were up there either, and in fact, if my info was correct, it was a tough bite for most of August. Welcome to WI MN, at least you have a big fish resource second to none, but perhaps Canada. You still have a lot less pressure than say, KY, and less than a lot of WI lakes. The total pressure on your trophy waters probably HAS NOT PEAKED YET.
#4 What can be done about guides? Well, you can probably better control the guides with some simple regs, if they are tenable to MN residents. I am always surprised there is not a stiff out of state fee for guiding in other states. I would think that would be the first step and the fee directly applicable to the resource they are milking for cash, ie goes directly into musky walleye etc. whatever their license specifies. The MN musky resource is almost totally a state funded resource and I would think that economic benenfits in the state would be best utilized by residents of MN, not KY, IN, MI, IL, and WI. We are poor down here and should probably be thankful for every guide that goes to MN in the summer or WI rather than fishing 80-90 degree water, but if I was a MN resident, I would probably place a tariff on out of state utilization of my revenue producing investment. My guess is, the lakes won't suffer a bit if they do this.
#5 And unfortunately, there is ALWAYS A NUMBER 5 that's a real bugger to deal with! Technology has far outpaced all the guides in MN. I was looking at GPS navigational stuff that goes far beyond what I would ever require a guide for at this point in my musky fishing. Between the Navionics chip technology, depth charting technology, and never even talking about tackle development, all Lake Vermillion locals and experienced fisherman are going to be under a lot of pressure in the future, even if MN banned guiding completely in their waters. If I had Navionics when I went up there, I would have been days ahead in my education, and I learned enough in a couple hours and with a map to effectively add some pressure to the lake, though not at an expert level. Maybe there isn't all that much point worrying about the guides. We all have other problems and intrusions on our fishing that basically go way beyond guides so.......SMILE......BE HAPPY!
Edited by firstsixfeet 9/8/2009 12:18 PM
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Location: New Hope MN | Muskie Treats - 9/8/2009 11:20 AM
dtaijo174, while this may be the land of the free, stocking muskies and getting new lakes and changing public opinion about muskies and muskie fishermen is not.
I agree, but it comes from voluntary means via Musky Inc. Catch and release ethics came from educating anglers, and again voluntary. Teach anglers, through education, to use local guides if you think it is wrong to use outside state guides.
Using government to enforce your moral belief, which it is, is tyrannical. Not to mention you are creating a mini local monopoly. In addition, the US constitution would protect outside businesses (in this case outside state guides) through the interstate commerce clause. Though, I doubt any guide has the money to take it to the Supreme Court.
My big issue with people pushing this is the monetary issue. If I regularly guide, fish only the hot lakes outside my state, and didn’t take payment for my services you would have no problem with it. If I make my living off of it you do have a problem with it. Case in point, there are no arguments for outside state anglers having to buy zoning permit or lake permits. The gimme gimme society.
Since you quote Jefferson:
“An Honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.”
“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
“It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own.” Think of this when you have to buy a zone permit as an in state angler.
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Location: SE Wisconsin | This is pointless.
Every state has stocked lakes with public access. A guide from Indiana has just as much right to go to Minn. or Wisc. and guide a lake of his/her choice as anyone from WI or MN does on Indiana's waters. Private funding for stocking and preservation makes no difference because it's all relative around the country. Lake associations that support the fishery of a private lake with no public access is a little different, but public fisheries are public fisheries. MN and WI are not different continents or countries. The invisible borders don't have road blocks like Canada. Woods and water belong to all of us, and it's a simple personal dilemma for individuals who suffer discomfort when other people fish or hunt "their" woods and water. So if I have donated towards the funding of a lake, can another who has done the same for a different lake fish the particular lake I donated to? SURE, and I can fish theirs.
What's the argument here? |
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| Yes getting more lakes stocked would be nice in MN. But we who live here put in the work to get one stocked recently.
How many out of state guides put in any effort to get more lakes stocked in the recent Gull and Pokegeman meetings?
Answer: none
But you know who will be the first to take clients to the lakes other people put in the work required to get them stocked.
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Posts: 2361
| Sam Ubl - 9/8/2009 12:14 PM
This is pointless.
Every state has stocked lakes with public access. A guide from Indiana has just as much right to go to Minn. or Wisc. and guide a lake of his/her choice as anyone from WI or MN does on Indiana's waters. Private funding for stocking and preservation makes no difference because it's all relative around the country. Lake associations that support the fishery of a private lake with no public access is a little different, but public fisheries are public fisheries. MN and WI are not different continents or countries. The invisible borders don't have road blocks like Canada. Woods and water belong to all of us, and it's a simple personal dilemma for individuals who suffer discomfort when other people fish or hunt "their" woods and water. So if I have donated towards the funding of a lake, can another who has done the same for a different lake fish the particular lake I donated to? SURE, and I can fish theirs.
What's the argument here?
You might like it to be that way, however, if the state wants to step in and regulate things they will. There is actually no innate right for guides to go guide in other states. They have to meet qualifications to do so, and as an example, I meet the qualifications to guide for Moose in KY, however, I am suspicious that I do NOT meet the qualifications to guide for Moose in Alaska, even though currently I am probably the only guide willing to take you out Moose hunting in KY.  |
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| again, why don't the MN guides go south during the spring and fish when the MN lakes are still frozen or the season hasn't opened up yet?
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Location: Watertown, MN | Lots of good point, missed a good post from voice messages left.
To me the biggest issue was the bite falling off on Mill lacs and the guides going on the move, thus putting pressure on many folks favorite lakes, that they have never guided pressure before, no one minded all the guys beating the h@ck out of the POND, but they have moved on. Some out of staters are guiding regularly on brood stock lakes, ethical no, this was one first things that was first brought to my attention when I joined MI. Protect and respect your Resource. I think JS post it well on ethics and guide mobility has changed in today world. Great for clients, YES. for resources and general publics, probably not,
Gotone(dan): I agree with getting new lakes started, but who is doing that, is not being pushed by state, but by MI, MMA and several folks donating time and sitting on special committees and roundtable with officials, and presseing for this. Are the interested in getting new lakes started to have out of staters and mn guides come bring pressure to lake, and educating high rate of return pressure to their lake or new resource. So do some feel why should I build a resource John Boy to come make a living, I see more and more of the movers asking themselves that ?
Probably 12 or more out of state guides, but mutliply the pressure they bring to a resource, by educating anglers, dialing in patterns, and giving many folks the keys to good bites. This also does apply to local guide too.
But it is a limited resource and that one many want to protect, like on guy stated us becoming like WI, that is why you see the passion about the resource here is we want to protect it, and do not know the best answer to do that with the guide situation. Like the one post and it just take one bad experience with a out of state guide (OSG), like refusing to help support local chapters and the word travels fast in this group. MN fish are support by Tax payer money, and get a lot of support from the MI chapters through the state in subsidising stock of fish for DNR short falls and helping them on other projects.
The more toes get stepped on the louder people will scream!
PS- I would like to that the guides that have been a big support of MI donating time, tackle and trip in helping us raise money for the support of MI raising money to stock fish.
Troyz
Edited by Troyz. 9/8/2009 12:39 PM
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| Guest - 9/8/2009 12:29 PM
again, why don't the MN guides go south during the spring and fish when the MN lakes are still frozen or the season hasn't opened up yet?
What does this have to do with the discussion? |
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Posts: 59
| There are a lot of guides in Minnesota. It just sucks when a lot of them pound your home water each and every day of the week.... |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | I'd like someone to explain "protecting the resource". Since we are all CPR, what is it that we are exactly protecting? Seems to me the Minnesota DNR hasn't seen any population density declines. I think the local definition of "protecting the resource" is having dumb, uneducated fish that are easy to catch.
Edited by musky23 9/8/2009 12:52 PM
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Location: Musky Country | Slim - 9/8/2009 12:36 PM
There are a lot of guides in Minnesota. It just sucks when a lot of them pound your home water each and every day of the week....
Boy I here ya there Slim!!!!!!!!!!! |
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| I agree with TroyZ.
Guiding on Brood stock lakes should be banned by the DNR.
Profiting from those lakes is not what they were intended for.
The advent of email and the internet has changed this sport dramatically and it's not a good thing. Look how many guides have left Vermilon and Mille Lac for less pressured and dumber fish.
Guides do have an impact on the resource and it's not a good one imo |
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| Slim,
How many of those are out of state guides? I only know of a very select few that are out of state guides. |
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | I see your point Troy.....to be honest I am surprised to see that out of state guides would not support the local MI chapters in the areas that they fish. Seems like the logical thing to do to me.
Since the MMT and other groups help to support stocking in MN, could an out of state guide join the Minnesota Muskie Guide Association who help MN support stocking in the lakes.
I guess maybe the out of state guides could use some better PR for themselves to eliminate some of the negative feelings. But when it all comes down to it, I think it is more of a personal feeling of being "invaded" rather than "what are they doing for MN".
Understandable? Yes.....but they are still trying to make a living. |
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Location: Watertown, MN | Musky23 if you reply my post, Brood stock lakes are lake that hold the fish that are used for stocking MN waters. Yes usually higher pop, and we tend to leave them alone and not harrass them daily. Ethics, you can kill a fish everyday because the laws states that you can, but I am sure you would be bashed if you did.
Troy |
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Posts: 186
Location: West Chicago, IL | If fishing is going to affect the success of a brood stock lake, the DNR would ban fishing on them to protect the fish. There is nothing about fishing (except during the spawn) that is going to hurt egg recruitment in the spring. |
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