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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | UGGHHH!
I've concluded it is impossible to purchase a rod without taking one for a Test Drive first. If that is the case, then it is almost impossible to purchase a newly released rod or a custom rod.
Although I am specifically looking for a St. Croix, these Calstar rods sound nice.... but without fishing with one first, the info I can find online is totally useless.
http://www.calstarrods.com/grafighter.htm
The photo thing is useful.... to me at least. If there was a standard way of showing how the rod loads up under a specific weight/pressure... perhaps the sale of custom rods and newly released rods would increase? I'm not going to fork out $300+ on a rod that MIGHT meet my needs.
Looks like I may have to make it to a show this winter to get my questions answered..... |
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Posts: 814
| So do I need to bring the calstar to Milwaukee???? Jason the calstar imo is the closest your going to get in a pounder rod with a soft tip with great backbone, the first 2 feet is fiberglass, very forgiving as you know, much slower in response compared to graphite, this really helps with the headshakes and boatside errors, as it is very easy to always keep the rod loaded. Then it blends to graphite thats where the backbone of this rod really helps, I think you need to see it for yourself and maybe take a couple of casts. Mike
Edited by mskyhntr 1/16/2009 10:14 AM
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Which Calstar blank are you guys custom building on?
Which retail rod is getting the nod for big plastics?
http://www.charkbait.com/cs/csrodCalstar.htm
Edited by jlong 1/16/2009 10:53 AM
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Posts: 401
| The Calstar blank is similar to the St Croix blend rod that was discontinued last year. It is the glass blend that offers more flex (load) at the tip. You will not get the same type action from a straight graphite rod that you get from glass. They are two different types of sticks.
If you are going to go with straight graphite St Croix is the best made. My opinion. They offer increased strength without just adding graphite.
Keith
Edited by Professional Edge 1/16/2009 12:17 PM
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Posts: 4266
| Jason, RE: your sketch; I went downstairs and got both rods out and ran line through the eyes. Both rods bend like that, but it takes more force to make the Big Dawg do it. After that initial bend, the Sling Blade will continue to bend a bit farther down the blank, but the Big Dawg bends like that and then just gets harder and harder to pull without any real noticable flexing down the blank.
Beav |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Beav, thanks for the direct comparison. If most of the flex is in the tip, I'm hopeful the Big Dawg will meet my needs for both casting big baits AND fighting big fish.
I'm gunshy of tips that require too much force to fully load up... cause then they unload VERY quickly. When a 40 pounder squares off and starts those "big heavy" headshakes.... you can watch the tip load and unload between shakes. That is the scenario I am most fearful of... as its cost me two memorable fish in recent seasons.
Now... if I put trust in whomever designed these rods... I'm assuming its safe to think the SlingBlade is made for big blades and the BigDawg is made for big, heavy, cumbersome lures. My fear is that those designers focused on the aspect of CASTING those lures and not so much on landing the fish afterwards. Perhaps I'm just paranoid? Its still a leap of faith... but I'm most likely going with the Big Dawg.
Thanks everyone for your feedback. |
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| here's pics of the Sling Blade:
- pounder
- two pounder
- moderate hand pressure
it's a fast tip (not extra-fast) that takes what i'd call a medium amount of pressure to get into the power of the rod. i haven't cast it ever, but from the way it acts on dry land i think it should be plenty strong without sacrificing forgiveness.
hope it helps.
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Posts: 814
| Nice Pics Mike, you beat me to the punch,I thought I would take a couple more since I got a few requests for photo's like Mike's. After looking at these photo's and the Slingblade photo's from Mike you can come to the conclusion that these are pretty close tip wise, except the calstar really is designed for the big rubber where the sling blade is not. Look at the bend in the calstar when I put a little load on it. The big dawg is much stiffer in the tip. 1st 2 photo's are of 2 pounders hanging freely and the last one is with minimal pressure to show how much flex the tip has. mike
Edited by mskyhntr 1/18/2009 8:21 PM
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Now that's what I'm talking about. Hanging a 2 lb. weight from each rod allows you to make an "apples to apples" comparison for how the tips load up.
Looks like the Calster loads up more to my liking.
The Sling Blade is stiffer than I expected... and I can only assume that the Big Dawg is even stiffer.
Does anyone have an 8'6" Okuma they'd be willing to take a photo of for a low budget comparison? |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Jason, here are some pictures of the Okuma 8'6" XH.
The 1st is with 1 pound of weight hanging freely (took me two baits to get to an even pound).
The 2nd is with 2 pounds of weight freely hanging (2, 12 oz Curly Sues and an 8 oz Super D).
The 3rd is me putting quite a bit of pressure on the rod with 10 pounds of weight on the floor. If I was holding the handle horizontal in this picture, I think you would see a lot more of a round, parabolic curve to the rod.
I'm not sure if the Okuma is quite what you are looking for in your pounder rod. It will certainly flex, which makes casting easy, but it doesn't get into a real strong backbone for quite a length down the blank. It's still a very nice rod that works great for lots of different baits, but I don't think it's what YOU are looking for right now. There is also a tradeoff for working heavier baits hard. With too soft of a tip (and having it continue too far into the rod), it can get tiring trying to really lay into the baits.
How do those with the Calstar blank feel about that? Looks like the tip is pretty flexible. Does it firm up quickly enough to make working big baits hard easily? Also, is the physical weight of the rod light enough to not feel heavy at the end of the day?
curleytail
Edited by curleytail 1/19/2009 12:21 PM
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Posts: 743
| We now have pics of 3 different rods . Could someone with a Steel 20 and 25 post some pics. I'd really like to see how the Steel would compare to these 3.
Thanks,
Kurt |
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Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN | Jason
Another rod to look at is the Tica 8'6" XH, Lee has been using them for his plastics, and I bought one but most used it for a 10 setup, I threw some dawgs on it this fall and it was good, but I am looking to go to 9'. I love my allstar XH, but no longer in production for dawgs.
Troyz |
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Posts: 814
| Kurt I also have a 25 and am having a 20 built as I speak.....The 25 isn't really for pounders, it could probably throw them but since the 9 footer has an extension it in its not recommended.its more of a mag dawg rod and also for ripping 10'' jakes or grandma's I also use the 25 for 10 and 13 blades, I burn them without a problem, without overloading the rod. The 20 is more of a medium heavy made for reg dawgs,spinnerbaits,topwater,cranks,smaller twitch baits,smaller tails and also for slow rolling 10's etc.
Curlytail:
The calstar is really soft in the fiberglass section(the first 2 feet or so) then where it meets the graphite is where the power begins, the last photo is about as much as the rod will bend without extreme force. This is why imo its the best big rubber rod out right now....its got a soft tip for great casting and keeping fish pinned. And also has the power to put the screws to them when ripping big rubber.
The Calstar is heavier than the St. Croix I am not sure how much, but when looking for a big rubber rod that should be the last thing on your mind...2 oz really isn't that much imo. When throwing pounders I don't think you'll notice it..... I have mine set up with a luna 300. I am for sure a St Croix with a 700 te or garcia 7000 would be heavier if that makes sense. Any more ?'s feel free to ask, is anyone going to the milwaukee show? I'll be there on Sunday, I know Jonesi will be there on Sat, and he has one also....I'll see if he will bring his if anyone is interested, his is built exactly like mine. Mike |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Can anyone post a picture of the Big Dawg with 2 pounders on it to compare to Lambeau's pics of the Sling Blade? |
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Posts: 136
Location: Chicago | 9' big dawg
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Thanks, Rob, for post the Big Dawg. Did you have a custom 9' built?
I'm beginning to think this method may have some flaws. Here is my 9' Lamiglass with a pair of pounders hung on the line followed by my 8' Heavy Avid. They look similar in the photos yet are radically different rods.
Hmmmm.......
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Posts: 136
Location: Chicago | Yes, from Frank Bottiliergi ( Franks Custom Rods) with a 17'' handle. |
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Posts: 743
| jlong - 1/19/2009 8:14 AM
Now that's what I'm talking about. Hanging a 2 lb. weight from each rod allows you to make an "apples to apples" comparison for how the tips load up.
Looks like the Calster loads up more to my liking.
The Sling Blade is stiffer than I expected... and I can only assume that the Big Dawg is even stiffer.
Does anyone have an 8'6" Okuma they'd be willing to take a photo of for a low budget comparison?
I think St Croix always under rates their rods. |
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Posts: 136
Location: Chicago | Just by reading the posts i think i'm sold on the Calstar's 9'ers you guys had made up. The versatility being the sticking point. With the glass blend on the blank can i assume this thing will work great in cold temps. Can we put another check on this rods versatility. |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | I don't know Jason, to me it looks like the Lamiglass has a softer action/lighter power than the Avid. Looks like the tails of the Pounders are just resting on the floor in both pics, but it looks like you have a few more inches of line out with the Avid, providing that the leader length is the same.
I don't know if we'll see drastic differences with only two pounds of weight. You're probably putting at least 5 pounds on a fish at all times (doesn't seem like much, but put a scale on you're line - it's surprising how little weight you are putting on a rod if you are putting a good bend in it).
I think this is still a decent test. To be the best, we would probably want to look at bends with weight from 1-8 or 10 pounds, and it wouldn't hurt to measure the deflection of the rod tip either...but not all volunteers might be willing to do this...
curleytail |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | jaycbs74 - 1/20/2009 11:05 PM
Just by reading the posts i think i'm sold on the Calstar's 9'ers you guys had made up. The versatility being the sticking point. With the glass blend on the blank can i assume this thing will work great in cold temps. Can we put another check on this rods versatility.
Graphite doesn't get brittle in cold weather, often cold weather is blamed for a break but its usually the technique (trolling, quick-set sucker fishing, snap-casting 2 pounders) that causes graphite rods to break.
I like the Big Dawg for the big rubber, the tip IS extra fast but the rod loads butt to tip on the cast like a rod is supposed to, and the tip allows me to rip through weeds better. |
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| Flambeuski - the guys at TB's agree w/ re: cold temps and graphite... it's the abuse, not the cold temps.
Jlong - I really don't think you'll be happy w/ either of the st. croix options. I was at thornes yesterday and compared a bunch of blanks. The slingblade is at least as stiff in the tip as your 8' avid. The big dawg even stiffer. And they both have faster actions than the avid, so overall they have more power and less flex. I looked at the steels, the 25 would be a great mag dawg rod, but not a full time pounder rod imo, at least if you're looking to snap cast pounders. It will load up way too much to do that. However the steels have a reputation for excellent durability so I think the rod would hold up to the abuse. I rate it's power as slightly more than a heavy diamondback and slightly less than your 8' avid. The steel 25 would definitely perform how you like on the hookset and fight. I used to have an 8' avid and had the same dislikes as you, I've never handled a calstar but if you're looking for a dedicated pounder rod this might be a good choice.
As far as the photo comparisons, I think everybody needs to set up the rods so just the handle is supported. Depending on how the blank rests it will change how the rod loads... i.e. your pics have the door knob halfway up the blank. Just an idea. |
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| p.s. I'm not knocking the st croix stuff, they are great blanks but we all have personal preferences. |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | To simplify a now lengthy and complicated post.
I'm looking for a rod with enough power to cast large, cumbersome lures such as a Pounder and enough tip action (soft, flexible tip) to hold onto a big fish during battle.
The challenge is finding consistent and useful information to make comparisons. Relying on people's opinions just won't work... as everyone has different preferences, interpretations, etc.
Photos help... but obviously are not fool proof.
Access to custom blanks and newly released stock rods is very limited, so getting your hands on one to play with BEFORE you buy it is challenging.
So... if its gonna take me three tries at $300 each... that's a $900 investment that would take almost 9 months to complete (3 months for each rod). So... maybe... if I'm lucky... I can find the perfect rod for me by next October and after a significant financial investment at a time when the overall economy is in the tank.
Nice. |
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Posts: 743
| Aren't you glad that in today's musky fishing world we have such a variety rods,reels,lures ,and line to choose from. It makes choosing the right products for you such a simple procedure and expensive proposition. LOL |
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| I'm looking for a rod with enough power to cast large, cumbersome lures such as a Pounder and enough tip action (soft, flexible tip) to hold onto a big fish during battle.
how do you work those big plastics IN the water? that's a huge factor as well.
some rods might have the soft tip to hold fish, but that can impede really ripping or jerking the lure but allow for long pulls, etc.
what kind of hooksets do you use? quick wrist snaps relying on the rod action, or full body turns that access more of the rod's power?
the mix of rod action/power may be a different for good casting, good action, good hooksets, and forgiveness during the fight.
personally, i'm not a snap-caster, so i can tolerate a slower action rod. butttt, i set hooks with a snap, so i need a faster action rod. annnd, i like to work the lures hard to again a faster action. buuuttt, i want a forgiving tip during the fight.
sigh...no perfect tool exists to give me all those things.
most important to me is lure action and hookset, so i prefer a faster action. (thus for double-10s the Sling Blade was a good choice for me; with Pounders i actually like something with a slower action so i don't overload the rod when casting so i use a totally different rod.) i absolutely hate it when casting a lure that's too light for the rod and the action "snaps" the rod tip straight mid-cast. matching rod to lure is important.
Jason, it sounds like you emphasize forgiveness over other factors, so probably a look for a rod with more moderate action. that might mean compromising with a rod that loads up further down the blank than in yoru diagram.
as Jason notes, we would offer people very different advice on the "right" rod for any particular lure. despite what you may hear, there is no one right answer for anything, but rather what is the best match for your use.
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Mike.
You are correct and I agree that everyone's opinions/needs will vary.
However, I know what I'm looking for but can't seem to find a good way to be confident that what I buy will deliver it.
On paper (specs) there isn't a rod out there that can deliver what I'm looking for. I want a 9 foot rod with a Medium Heavy action rated to 16 oz. Haven't found a rod with those specs yet. Thus, I'm looking for the next best thing... which is where we run into problems.
Since I already have a 9 foot rod that is on the softer side of the spectrum.... I'm gonna roll dice and opt for a rod on the stiffer side of the spectrum. Unfortunately, I can predict already that it will cost me a few BIG fish in the future. |
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| so if you say peoples opinions won't work why did you even post this thread? that is all you are going to get. Unless you yourself physically go out and try each one what else are you going on? Pictures of lures hanging off the tip? that has it's flaws for sure...
not sure what the point of this thread was if, in the end you say you won't buy anything based on opinion. what else do you have to go buy when buying a rod short of holding/feeling/casting it? I've bought plenty of rods based on someones input and suggestion and they have all performed to my liking.
imo you would like the Calstar, but again, you'd have to see it to figure that out. |
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Posts: 375
| just call keith at proedge and describe what you want the rod to do and he will assist you in sorting through the maze of rods out there today. i "thought" i knew exactly which croix legend i "wanted / needed" until i spoke to him and he "guided" me to the right rod for the applications i wanted it for. and by the way, the one "i thought" would be perfect turned out to be way off the mark!
Edited by STUSHSKY 1/21/2009 2:32 PM
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Posts: 76
Location: Bartlett IL | Look at how the muskie rod market has changed. Two years ago the St Croix XXXH Premier was the be-all and end-all for throwing pounders and two pounders. Do a search of all posts for 'XXXH' in the Tackle and Equipment Forum to see what I'm talking about. I have never built one because of what Steve Jonesi said to me. He said, "I'll pole vault with that rod before I'd fish with it. It's too stiff." I wonder how many are sitting in a corner collecting dust.
If you asked me my opinion two years ago or today it would be the same answer. The blank to use for a pounder rod would be hands down the Calstar Grafighter. There are many new rods/blanks available now but few designed to handle a 14 oz. bait. The tip of the Calstar is not too stiff and the butt section has enough power to handle any muskie we would come across. Again, this is my opinion. There are many different views as you can see with 58 replies on a thread that started out being about St. Croix Legends.
If anyone wants to get in touch with me, send me an email or PM with your phone number. I’ll give you a call and we can chat.
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