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Posts: 8781
| I guess all I'm trying to say is that there are good clients and bad clients, like AF Chief said. And I believe not tipping is a good way to score a seat in the "bad client" section. Not that tipping is much help if you're a jerk, but at east you've got something going for 'ya.
I know I've heard a few stories told at the expense of previous clients, and I sure wouldn't want to be those guys.
Man, there's a story I'm dying to tell here, but I just can't do it!! 
Just for fun, next time you hire a guide, ask him to tell some "worst client you ever had" stories. Really opens your eyes to a few things! |
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Posts: 341
| I always tip my guides, fish in the boat or not. Ocean charter guides keep most of the meat as a tip to sell later, so why would a fresh water guide expect anything differantly? The more I tip the more honey holes I learn, that's my motovation, win win.
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| the whole scene is a two-way street. i don't see guides and their fees being tied to the tipping process ... maybe i'm naive and maybe that's just me but the current rate is already a pretty big number and if it wasn't the guy wouldn't be doing it in the first place.
the restaurant business is a totally different game than musky-guiding imo. that waiter is there making 70% of his money on tips and if you don't tip at all then he/she wasted their time and essentially worked for free for you (a far-cry from a 350 dollar guided day on the water). your stiffing him regardless was a direct slam on anything he might have done right and then you have to see the situation for what it might have been in his eyes ... he may have been put on too many tables, the bar may have affected him on getting his orders, there might have been something going on in the kitchen .... essentially, your problem was with the watier and instead of handling it directly with him ... you avoided the conflict of your expectations and his situation and then screwed him over. if he knew there was a quarter in it for him he would rather have seen the table left open or loaded with another group that might have dealt with the situation differently ...
agree totally with maxey ... you feel justified in your own mind and that's about it. if i were one of your clients at the table knowing what happened i'd probably think you could treat me in the same way and look elsewhere for a supplier.
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Posts: 72
| Anyone care to guess how much insurance is for a guide? |
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| MO,
No idea, what does it cost a guide for insurance?
J |
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Posts: 1270
| MO, I'm just guessing here but I would bet that it's less than insurance for a electriction or plumber and I don't often hear about people tipping them. Have you seen malpractice insurance rates for Dr. and nurses lately? It would make your guide insurance pale in comparison and I don't ever hear of those guys being tipped.
Insurance is a part of the cost to do business. |
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| usually people avoid direct conflict and the need to change a situation while it's happening. if you are able to put the conflict out there professionally and directly ... usually you'll get a response worth your while. my suggestion would be to approach the guy directly and give him the choice to either get a manager to assist or not. if he chooses not you just approach the manager and give him your expectations ... you should get some options then and decide what you want to do about it. that will also show your customer that you're a good problem-solver and solid business guy.
you are in a business situation and it's an opportunity to show your customer how you handle conflict. me ... as a customer, i'm all eyes and ears watching you and what you're doing and how you're handling the situation because it's a mirror to how you'll handle a problem related to me as a customer.
cheaping the guy and not addressing the situation just gave the order to the other guy. |
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Posts: 2068
Location: Appleton,WI | Funny story ben,I know of a few pizza delivery guys who would wait to deliver the pizza's last or on the way back to the pizza shop so you get a cold pizza or half to wait longer because they didnt tip or tiped lousy. |
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Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | When you ask the question "how much is insurence for a guide" I think that is a very good question, but you also have to look at what kind of insurence. If he is a full time guide I would think that you are looking at health, auto, boat, and guiding insurence. This question was brought up a while ago and I believe that most of the guides said that they never expected a tip, but it was always greatly appreciated. I think if you look at all of the things that a guide has to pay for with all of the insurences, boat and auto payments, no retirement plan like many of us have with our jobs, it is a good paying job when you look at just the figure of $350, but that has to cover a lot of bills.
Peter |
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Posts: 408
Location: Omaha, Nebraska | I know of guides who only charge $250 a day... yet somehow they can still make a living. When some guides charge $400 dollars a day. Now yes, these prices are probably reflective on how much gear the guide has, a guide that thinks he needs the newest equipment, lures, boat, truck, etc. will defiantly have a lot more expenses, but do any of those things help the customer? Many of you said that you hire a guide to learn the lake and techniques, not to ride around in the fanciest equipment and see how fast you can go or have a whole arsenal of lures to use. Also you shouldn't feel obligated to tip, if you hired a lousy guide and learned absolutely nothing except to never hire him again.
Edited by DEMolishedyou 5/19/2008 8:11 PM
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| If I were to get guide, I wouldn't tip him. They already get a good wage for there work...I think its rediculous, especially when I here of some guides getting pissed b/c they didn't get tipped. If they believe they deserve more, they should charge more!
Fishing Charters are different, when you tip, most times it goes to the first mate. Who's wage is based on tips...In the service industry, they rely on tips. When I tip a bartender who might be a owner, I usually get stonger drinks and usually a free drink (something he paid for). So if someone that tips a guide, does he get a free bait or reel / rod combo? Maybe a bait and if the client catches a fish, its what he is being paid to do! It certainly isn't the guides fish! Just my thoughts, I usually tip well, epsecially for good service. These people in the service industry rely on tips to make a living. Guides make 250 plus, and thats usually not for a full 8 hours. Thats pretty good money for alot of people! |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | First, I charge more than $250 a day. Second, I don't care if you tip me or not, but I'll sure try to earn your friendship and respect for a day of hard work keeping my client happy on the water, just like most Guides I know. |
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Posts: 408
Location: Omaha, Nebraska | Also I do believe in tipping as long as the service is good. But I have a question for all these different rates different guides charge, why would you base your tip on a percentage of the fee; like 15-20%? The guide who is charging more to begin with will end up making more in the tip also while the guide with a smaller fee, will inevitably be rewarded with a smaller tip if you base your tips off a certain percentage. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm not sure how clients decide on the tip. I have received tips from $5 to $1500.00 over the years, but NEVER 'expect' one. |
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "that waiter is there making 70% of his money on tips and if you don't tip at all then he/she wasted their time and essentially worked for free for you"
Actually for waitpersons, and many other occupations where tipping is deemed customary, they would be paying $$ to wait on you. They are taxed on 10% of gross receipts they have waited on, based on the expectation they will receive at least a 10% tip. They must keep track or all tips received and report anything above 10% as additional tip income. So if you tip nothing they are left paying tax on a 10% tip they never received!
Also occupations were tipping is expected are the ONLY ones not subject to minimum wage laws as it is assumed the tips are part of the wage. Most waitpersons are earning a GUARANTEED wage of only a couple bucks an hour. |
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | At 90+% of places you also must tip out other members of staff..busboys, barback, bartenders, etc...4-5% is a typical lower end number
Which is why making this comparison to Musky guides is kinda justy plain silly, totally different ballgame |
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| I will say that I used to fish with a guide near Montreal that would not charge me anything except for gas money. We tipped him with rare lures, art work and other such gifts. Really wanted him to know how much we appreciated the trips...Ben |
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Posts: 8781
| $350/day SOUNDS like "good money" until you think about how much you have to invest in equipment, boat payment, truck payment, gas for the truck, gas for the boat, insurance, health insurance, etc. You don't have to have all the best gear, and a ton of lures. But you do have to have enough to properly outfit your clients, and allow for things getting lost, broken etc.
Probably a decent amount of money left over after all that. Until you remember that you're probably not booked 5 days a week all season, and you can't guide from November to May.
I've never guided, so I don't know for sure, but I've tried to do the math a bunch of times, and the best case number I came up with was about $25,000 in your pocket at the end of the year. That's enough for a young single guy, but if you're married and you want a house or you have any kids? Forget making a living guiding. |
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Posts: 1270
| addict, I agree at first glance $350 a day does sound like good money but like you said once you take out expenses you are not left with a whole lot. This is why I think that a guide needs to really sit down and figure out what it costs and what he needs to charge for a days fishing and not depend on tips for his profit margin.
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | First off, I also never expect a tip, but it is always appreciated.
I am of the opinion that most that hire me don't even realize that tipping is an option to be considered. I am just fine with people paying my fee and going on there way. If it is a first time customer, I won't even know if they are tipping or not until the end of the day. Their decision to tip or not is unknown to me until after the Tuffy is on the trailer and headed home. It can not possibly change the quality of service or the effort I put into their trip because I do not know until they are done.
Secondly, I would much rather receive return bookings than a tip. I would rather have a repeat booking than an extra $50 at the end of any day. If you book me again, you are a repeat customer, and I never want to lose those, so again tip or not, you will get the best service I can offer. Repeat customers that tip well.....well those are the guys you bend over backwards for at nearly any request.
Your decision to tip or not is completely up to you. Do what you feel is right, either way, I am going to do anything I can to put you on fish. |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | I was going to add a note to the bottom of my business cards, "groups of one or more will be charged a 15% gratuity", kind of like what is seen on menus. Or maybe a $50.00 fuel surcharge per day.
Probably not, that would get as old as this thread in a hurry.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | reelman - 5/19/2008 3:38 PM
addict, You are right that musky fishing is a small community and word gets around fast. But it gets around even faster when a guide "holds out" on a client and doesn't put all his effort into providing a good day. A guide should give 100% regardless of what the tip will be at the end of the day. Anything else would be very unprofessional of him.
Exactly. I don't think there are many out there that wouldn't give 100%. If they didn't then they probably aren't doing so well. We all have bad days at one time or another so perhaps that would be a reason, but I know that all of the guides that I know and talk to give 100% and don't expect a tip. Tips are cool when you get them, but if I have a client that tips or doesn't tip, I'm still going to give it my best to show them an awesome time and put them on fish.
I'm sure others will pipe in from the guide community, but I guide because I absolutely love being on the water and teaching others how to catch fish. I've loved it since I could walk and still to this day. No other reason than that. |
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Posts: 311
Location: Ontario | Best way to tip a guide is wait until he's a had a couple in the bar after the day, get ahold of one of the legs on the stool and give it a yank. Tipped Guide. |
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Posts: 344
Location: Musky Country | lmao,,,, good one Jbush |
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Posts: 618
Location: Bloomington, MN | Tipping has got me sent to the dog house too many times! I'm a firm believer that a server in a restaurant/bar should get at least 15% unless they are terrible, and I will never be returning. A fishing guide is totally different. I do a minimum of 15% unless they key my truck, and swear they never want me back in their boat (never has happened yet), or I don't fish a day that I have booked, in which I've paid the full cost of the day. Most guides lock in their rate almost a year prior to the date you hire them. Look what has happened to the price of fuel, insurance, boats, etc... Most fishing guides are doing it for the love of what they are doing. If you enjoy their company, and they are and/or appearing to try their gosh darndests to provide the best fishing on that given body of water at that time, give them the credit in at least of terms $$$. Calling your guide a few days prior to going out and asking if you need anything brought up (I've never gone down..Kentucky next year??) from our "Super Stores" is more of a "House" warming gift unless it is something in the nature of a crate of Opti Max oil or a Shimano Trinidad 16N, but always a nice touch to add to the beginning of an outing. Most high demand guides are on the water for at least 12 hours and don't have the time to run from Elephant Breath, XX to get the things they need at a drop of a hat. A phone call from you vs. them paying for UPS/FedX overnight would be appreciated. I ran out of 1st Wife happiness within 72 hours, and for all the tea in China, UPS Next Day Air couldn't deliver anymore, so stuff happens even to the most prepaired! Many years ago a friend fished with a "Premier" guide that was in high demand. The first day of the 4 days booked, they told him that they couldn't make day 4. The guide still charged them for the 4 days. If the guide decided not to do his normal guiding day even with his stand in-line "blah blah's muskie guide service" at the local sporting goods center, or couldn't get a booking I would understand, but he did get clients on that 4th day(being known booked after my friend's 2nd day from the same "Members Only" resort my friends were staying at). The unfortunate factor is that their last day trip with him after being LONG term "supposedely well liked "clients was filled with gut-rot. The reason for backing out on the 4th day was a family situation that the guide had known was legit for years. There is no such thing as the "Best" guide on the lake, maybe for a day or two, or even three, but for everyday of a season..no! Tip your guide with the thoughts of what you learned/experienced/ and, most importantly what you will experience on future trips if you decide to reserve on any more.
Clark ""If" out outlive my friend, I'm hopefully being willed an un-worn circa 1979 red satin Blah Blahtail, Blah Blahtail, Blah Blahtail jacket" Anderson |
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Posts: 1529
| being ob both sides of the coin here, did the guide do his best, was he all you expected. remember its all about many things before you even set foot on his boat.. 50 -100 bucks is appreciation for a fun trip. with good groups our 6 hour charters normally turned into 8 hours. most decent guides its not a job, its a life experience.. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Just to stir the pot.
I think as has been pointed out a number of times already the analogies between guides and waiters, bellhops, drivers and such is way off base, for the reasons given.
If a guide is charging between $250 and $500, that’s between $25/hour and $50/hour IF you get a 10 hour day. All the overhead and wages for the guide have to come out of that fee.
But consider this do you tip your plumbers, do you tip your electricians, do you tip your building contractor. If you higher a self employed plumber to come and plumb an addition to your house, should you expect less service the next time you hire him or her if you don’t give him a 15 to 20 percent tip on top of what was bid, for the job? How about an electrician, or the General contractor. I doubt it, it is far more likely that we will argue with them when they ask for more money because of last minute change WE came up with and had them do and they deserve.
The last guy I hired was self employed, bid the job and charged $25/hour plus materials for extras, about half of what I expected. He has a truck a trailer, and all the tools necessary to build a house from the foundation up, plus he has to carry liability insurance. Sounds similar to a guides expenses doesn’t it. O yea and one major difference, I doubt this guy takes his truck and trailer out for a long weekend of R&R or slips away with his tool box for an evening alone with a pile of lumber. On the other hand most guides would have all the same gear and equipment weather they guided or not, as most of the time it’s that love of fishing that gets them guiding in the first place.
My point being guides should charge what they feel is a fair fee for there time, effort and expenses and should not expect a tip. I also have no problem with a guide adjusting his rate to cover the cost of rising fuel prices, if warranted. For example if I want to learn Mille Lacs and I booked a trip last year a bump in fee could be warranted. If I want to learn a local little puddle, and the trip to the lake is minimal and there is very little running while on the lake, a bump may not be warranted.
That being said the few time I have hired a guide I tipped. The first time I didn’t because I had NO CLUE that you where supposed to, it never even crossed my mind. It definitely should be performance based though. Not just fish in the boat, but over all fulfillment of the job. I consider it more of a bonus than a tip.
Just my opinions, have at them.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mike,
The difference is basically in the product offered.
A carpenter builds a deck, and has no desire to educate or entertain. A plumber fixes my pipes, most days I don't even want to talk to the person and the feeling I'm sure is mutual. I hire an outfitter or guide, and I'm expecting to be 'made comfortable', be educated, entertained, and catch some fish in the process; I want the guy to take me to his favorite eating establishment for lunch and enjoy that time as well, and I expect I'll be treated as a valued client throughout the day.
A guide is a social director, educator, story teller, comedian, cheerleader, and above all entertainer. We tip folks like that because we 'grade' the performance given, and base the tip on that grade. Social thing, it doesn't have to make sense when compared to a contractor.
If the guy building your deck stopped working and asked you to come on over to his rig and learn the fine points of hammer selection for the job, told you 4 jokes in the process, and showed you his entire tool box describing the use of each item contained, you'd think he'd lost his marbles. If Dave Dorazio asked me, however, to look into his tacklebox, and described the use of why and when of each lure therein for July on the Chip.... |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | I spoke with a customer last night who stated his buddy tipped a Minnesota guide with a LCX-114 Lowrance. That's a $2,000.00 tip. I said, "what the hell did he do that for?". Apparently the guide put him on a multiple 50" fish in a day.
Hell, I've had people try to give me a tip at Gander for helping them out.
If people feel as though they're getting more out of what they're paying for, then they tip. It's like saying, "Thanks for going above and beyond"
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Tip my guides? Sheesh I didn't even know I was supposed to pay them.
Sorry guys, I'll try to make it up to ya somehow.
S.
Edited by sorenson 5/21/2008 9:51 PM
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