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Posts: 101
Location: mn | I think muskies become conditioned to boats not baits. I do think fisherman are conditioned when it comes to what lure to toss or buy ect. I think its more about how hungery or how angery the fish is at your bait for being there. Weather, sun, moon, ect......opportunity feeders. I read an article a few years back about bass becoming conditioned To topwater. Not sure what I think of that either. Just opinions not facts |
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Posts: 1168
| esoxaddict - 2/22/2008 5:07 PM
Here's something I've noticed that maybe some others can comment on... When I am fishing the Yahara chain (Madison), I never have fish follow more than once.
Just a wild guess here...perhaps they see you, think you're funny looking, then go back to their friends and laugh at your expense. hehehehehe. |
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| we as muskie fisherman are only changing baits or colors because the fish have becomed conditioned. If not we would always throw the same bait.
take tonka for example. pressure, pressure, pressure.
two years ago you had to beat fish off with a stick if you were throwing dc10's.
more pressure, more cowgirls over the next season and the % of fish caught on cowgirsl goes down.
We as anglers have become conditioned but only becasue the fish did first.
Another example would be day vs night fishing. Some lakes are just better in either situation. why? some of the lakes in the metro have so much pressure that if you want the BEST chance at catching a big fish you better be out at night. again this shows how we as anglers adapt to the fish adapting.
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Posts: 41
| Fish can't be conditioned. If they could, no one would ever catch a 50+ fish on a bucktail. DC excluded since they are so "new". With the popularity of topwater baits, wouldn't fish tend to stay deeper in the water column and not eat on the surface? If so, you wouldn't be able to catch fish on topwaters.
Edited by JZDANK1 2/22/2008 4:31 PM
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| no. |
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Posts: 101
Location: mn | good points maxey. |
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| You know something, you might be right! Funny, but the girls act the same way in the more pressured urban establishments compared to the more remote places, especially the further North you go...  |
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| heck yah they do...not sure if the right word is conditioned or what but they do adapt, change behavior etc over time, getting caught, etc...
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| If you want a serious online 'chat'!!!
get in touch with the doctor of animal behavior that works for Berkley/purefishing
hes done all kinds of tests in fish tanks on how once a fish 'bass" get caught, on how its attitude changes and how they also will shy away from preveious negative experiences,,
weve tried to get him has a speaker for our Twin Cities Muskies inc chapter but he only speaks a couple times a year, he was recomended to us bt one of Berkleys pro staff,,Id love to hear what he has to say |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | esoxaddict - 2/22/2008 4:33 PM
You know something, you might be right! Funny, but the girls act the same way in the more pressured urban establishments compared to the more remote places, especially the further North you go... ;-)
hey ... if you're seeing "girls up north" ... they are on vacation and what happens on vacation ... ah, the ever-popular girls weekends.
oh, and muskies ... yeah, if you pound em they change behavior |
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| A couple guys have nailed it already: we condition each other and thus how WE fish and then try to pin it on the muskie! Fishing pressure where I fish in basically nil, but I think that fish---even the dumb, big, wild ones---can get hip to the game. On a couple spots , we've had serious attemepts from big ones. Their effort drops off significantly after we've had them up a few times. Your best shot at them will be those first couple encounters. There's a real heavy one on the French River that shows up more and more every trip but never as hot as those first coupla times. On all baits, at all times of day, under all kinds of conditions. Just when we think she's been clubbed, she'll show up for us. She will make a mistake...that's why we fish the spot so much. I think the discussion re: crowded, smaller lakes in the US is a whole other can of worms. I can just imagine the pounding they take, and I think new presentations and new scheduling would make all the difference in the world in many cases. You guys have so much more innovation intackle etc than Cdns because I truly beleive that fish do see and feel the whole catalogue on some lakes. New stuff gets bit, and switching gears becomes all the more important. Big water is where I have always fished and I'm nowhere near as turned off or intimidated by it as I am high-pressure lakes. Especially with muskies, high traffic and high pressure just seems to make a tough climb even steeper to me. Not to mention wear and tear o the fish, handling etc. |
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| happy hooker - 2/22/2008 5:53 PM
hes done all kinds of tests in fish tanks on how once a fish 'bass" get caught, on how its attitude changes and how they also will shy away from preveious negative experiences,,
Studies done in a controlled environment...a tank. How controlled is a lake, river, reservoir, etc?
About how many times through the course of a year is a 50 inch muskie caught? I'm guessing not many. So with so few times being caught how would that fish relate that as a negative experience? Even a smart dog has to have it's nose rubbed in it's own crap a few times before it gets it and is conditioned.
Not all good night lakes are that way because of pressure. One that I am familiar with is virtually untouched, awesome night bite out there, leaves alot to be desired during the day. Go about 5 miles down the road to another lake that gets hammered with recreational traffic and pressure and it is consistently good during the day but is tough at night.
Perhaps "conditioning" is a misleading term to use when "adaptation" would offer more flexibility. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | The first of 26 definitions of “Life”:
“the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.”
Maxey said it best, if conditioning didn’t occur we would only need one lure. Every thing smaller would be considered food, because there would be NO survival instinct. If there was no conditioning to the environment there would only be the instinct to survive.
verb con•di•tioned, con•di•tion•ing, con•di•tions
7. Psychology - To cause an organism to respond in a specific manner to a conditioned stimulus in the absence of an unconditioned stimulus.
As I stated previously, I doubt it’s as simple as “O…..NO the green suick again” It is more likely that there is some stimulus connection with the colors, the sounds, the feel(lateral line) or some combination. And it all depends on MOOD, meaning whatever they have that triggers them to feed or not to feed. A strong feeding mood will override the smaller conditioned survival instincts. Which is why we can still catch them after being caught many times. You will never convince me that the more they get caught doesn't make them harder to catch.
Muskies small brains are pretty much geared 100% to survival, what are they most likely to remember? Negative experience!
Nail A Pig!
Mike
Edited by MRoberts 2/22/2008 5:20 PM
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Posts: 41
| Fish have to eat. If a fish relates eating with a bad experience and chooses not to eat, it dies. If a fish relates a pattern or color to a negative experience, It would also die. What colors do we fish with? Perch, bluegill, crappie, sucker, redhorse, etc... Does a muskie see a fish and think, Oh, that's type/color of food is bad? I don't think so . I think these fish are being given WAY to much credit. If they were half as smart as we think they were, we would catch them a couple times and that would be it. How big is a muskies brain? The size of a peanut. No matter how many times a fish is caught on a bulldawg, it will bite again. EVERYONE throws dawgs in IN for muskies and there aren't too many muskies around. If fish could be conditioned, I would sell all my dawgs. |
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Posts: 366
| So if fish are not conditioned then, two lakes with similar population and forage bases, as well as structure and water clairity. One that gets pounded all season long, and the other never sees a boat. Both lakes will produce the same probability for an individual to go out and catch a fish. The whole notion of Canadian lakes being easier to catch fish has nothing to do with the drastically reduced number of fishermen pursuing them. |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | I think we still need a good definition of what "conditioning" is. When i get a lazy follow on my topraider i don't ever throw the topraider back out on the next cast, because they are not likely to hit that bait. Very few of us would throw a prop bait back at that fish. But that's not "conditioning," is it? How long does it need to last to be considered conditioning? Maybe that fish will be caught twice this year on a topraider, just not today. What does it take for it to be conditioning? Do they need to never be caught to be considered "conditioned"? |
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| Do muskies become condtioned? I believe they do, but with a twist. In my opinion, "reaction strike" fish become condioned over time, at what point, I don't know. These same fish, when actively feeding, I think will strike under any condtions. I guess, i am trying to say fish seem to have two modes, neutral/active. Fish when neutral, will over seasons stop reacting like it once my have when in "neutral" and active fish, no matter what the condtions, become un-condtioned for a period of time until they revert into neutral mode.
You can see this happening thru the course of a season. There are some lakes, during certain times of year or weather condtions that are just "on", regardless of pressure. These fish are active. Then there are times you go to these same lakes and the fish are "neutral", it is tougher fishing, but you may hit a fish or two - reaction strikes. Not really sure if any of that makes sense, but that is the way I see it in my melon.
Interesting Topic. |
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Posts: 273
| Jordan Weeks touched on something similar to this when I heard him talk about his telemetary study. He had several fish that he could find in the same spots almost always. These fish were caught by anglers and proceeded to move out of the area for and period of time.
To me this is a type of conditioning. The fish had a bad experience being caught and for a certain amount of time changed its pattern.
Jeff |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | How do you know the capture was a bad experience? |
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Posts: 273
| TJ,
Maybe bad experience is the wrong choice of words.
If myrtle the muskie lives underneath the same log jam all her life until she is caught by a angler. After being released myrtle is found roaming over open water for the next week wondering WTF just happened. This is not her style hanging out over open water, she lives in the log jam. To me I "assume" that myrtle being caught had a negative effect on her lifestyle.
Maybe my assumption is wrong and I am giving a stupid fish too many human characteristics 
Jeff |
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Posts: 311
| Having hooks in your mouth is a bad experience. I need to find fish that enjoy the taste of metal, sure would make fishing easier. |
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| 12gauge - 2/22/2008 7:20 PM
When i get a lazy follow on my topraider i don't ever throw the topraider back out on the next cast, because they are not likely to hit that bait. Very few of us would throw a prop bait back at that fish. But that's not "conditioning," is it?
Yeah it is...in humans. hehehehe. Why wouldn't that bait work as a throw back? Is it because we've read over and over and over again to throw a jackpot, jig, bulldawg, etc back at them but seldom read about throwing a prop type bait back at them? One thing about muskie fishing...there are no (or very very few) absolutes. If it moves it's food. Pretty simple.
The studies that show that a muskie will leave an area after being disturbed is more of an immediate temporary flight response. The key here being temporary.
Dorsal fins on a perch probably don't feel so good when a muskie's mouth gets stung by them. That has to be a negative experience for the muskie but yet they aren't conditioned to avoid eating perch or any other prey that has a spiny dorsal fin. So if this isn't conditioning them to stop eating spiny rayed prey, then what makes chucking baits at them nonstop all day something that will condition them? |
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| Merckid - 2/22/2008 8:20 PM
How do you know the capture was a bad experience?
TJ,
I simply feel compelled to ask....in your opinion, from a fish's point of view, what makes an experience of a fish being captured good or bad? |
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Posts: 273
| Haven't studies shown that a muskie diet is made up mostly of soft scaled fish like suckers, and not of spiny fish like walleyes. Isn't that condtioning? Just because one fish does it doesn't mean that the next isn't condtioned to a certain situation.
Jeff |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | My point here has probably already been mentioned (didn't read through every post), but it's simple:
2 identicle lakes, same size, same number and size structure of fish (c&r only). One is completely closed to fishing, one gets pounded heavily over many years. Which lake is it going to be easier to catch a fish on?
Sorry I killed the debate, now you all have some spare time to maybe start a book club, shovel the walk, research some lake maps, or bake some cookies......
JS
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| J.sloan, I think they are both the same. I fished the fox chain of lakes for a long time and numerous 10 plus fish days. I also caught my second 50 plus incher there. It is the highest pressure muskie water there is. You just need to fish different. Not because of fishing pressure...Just because the lake is different. People go to LOTW because they have a better chance at a larger fish. Which is because it is a larger system with better habitat for larger fish. Many people, most people go there and catch very few fish. The numbers produced there on average and probably no different than anywhere else. Take the eagle chain in WI...huge amounts of pressure, but lots of fish caught because it is a numbers game. Take a look at tournament trail numbers from MN, IL, WI...average size might be different due to what the body of water produces, but average number of fish caught will be similar. People think too much. The fish are not smart...People do not do better in Canada...they go there to have a chance at bigger fish....Ben |
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Location: Kronenwetter, WI | There once was this dude named B.F. Skinner....look him up...a little thing called 'operant conditioning'...behaviors that lead to a positive reinforcement (meal) increase the liklihood that that behavior will be repeated in the future (eating tulibees). Behaviors that lead to a negative consequence (being hooked) decrease the liklihood that the behavior will be elicited in the future (eating things that move in a certain way or project a given vibration such as a bucktail) MTC |
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| Take a moment and compare the size of the brain that Skinner used with his animals to that of a muskies and your point is really does not seem on point. The fish brain is tiny...
Edited by BenR 2/22/2008 9:54 PM
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Location: Kronenwetter, WI | Ben--Actually, I would say that goldfish are able to make an association more complex than basic operent conditioning that Skinner established....what they are doing by approaching the glass at my appearance is actually Classsical Conditioning...(associating two previously unrelated stimuli...for Pavlov it was food and a sound or light....for these fish it is food and my appearance at the glass) linking two stimuli is more complex than simply conditioning to one stimuli...therefore, I happen to think my point is on point...if a goldfish is capable of being classically conditioned, then a musky is capable of being operantly conditioned.... |
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Posts: 271
Location: davis,IL | With out a doubt! Although I will admit that certain lures always seem to produce a fish or two. Think about it, if you see the same car tearing down the street every day, you'll probably look twice before crossing the road. |
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