Muskie Discussion Forums
| ||
| Moderators: sworrall, Slamr | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 5 Now viewing page 2 [30 messages per page] More Muskie Fishing -> Muskie Biology -> 54 inch limit on bay |
| Message Subject: 54 inch limit on bay | |||
Old Goat |
| ||
| Hey Steve, Do you think if the taxidermists in any state, would put a restriction on accepted length to mount.. Wouldn't that generate some awareness as to kept fish?/ Quite a few mounts at taxidermists in N. Wisc sure have a lot of small fish put on styrafoam and $ tags on them... Have you checked with the Taxidermists in your area?/ Just a thought... I'm still trying to catch a good fish not a "Medium" size fish... Don't break the toy... | |||
| Guest |
| ||
| if any of you 100% release guys think you haven't killed a few just by simply fishing you are fooling yourselves. Truly fooling yourselves. Don't want any to die, don't fish. | |||
| sworrall |
| ||
Posts: 32885 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Tomcat, Mike typed: 'It's like saying, I am against domestic violence, but if my neighbor wants to beat his wife that's cool. I might not agree with it, but I am not going to think less of him.' No, it isn't, that's bull. Give me a break. Mike should know what an analogy is. | ||
| muskellunged |
| ||
 Location: Illinois | MikeHulbert - 1/24/2008 10:32 AM I personally believe you are either 100% Catch and Release or you are not. You can't say, I am 100% catch and release but if a guys wants to keep one he can. It's like saying, I am against domestic violence, but if my neighbor wants to beat his wife that's cool. I might not agree with it, but I am not going to think less of him. or I am against drunk driving but if you want to do it, that's toally cool with me. I won't think less of you. Either you are 100% Catch and Release or your not. When you tip toe around it, that means you think you are, but if the opportunity presents itself with a monster fish....who knows what will happen. I'm shocked you would equate a legally harvested fish with illegal acts like domestic abuse or drunk driving. That's quite the outlook! So, because I won't belittle every person who keeps a giant fish (legally), I'm not 100% C&R. Well, Mike, I respectfully disagree with you. If I release all of my caught muskies, and encourage others to do the same, then to me, I'm 100% catch and release! I just strongly believe that people should be allowed to make their own choices. While I hope others will release all their fish, I will not persecute anyone for not agreeing with my ethics. In your opinion then, what percentage C&R am I- so that I can know!? Mike Witowski ps-I applaud your passion and sticking to your guns. No disrespect meant! | ||
| jonnysled |
| ||
Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | commonsense-less ... and ill-logical ... Steve ... this is precisely what i was talking about. amazes me to this day that grown ups can miss the point and continue to argue the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again as if it were the first time... there should be an idiot button for such things ... or maybe it's just that it's the howevermanyith days of -20 deg. that's makin' me crazy!!! | ||
| teddy b |
| ||
Posts: 158 | Mr Hulbert, I am 100% CPR, but your analogies are off in my opinion, drunk driving and domestic violence are illegal. I have seen people keep muskies on some lakes I fish and it does get me steamed up but I don't fly off the handle and yell at these folks. If there comes a time that a meeting with the DNR about total catch and release happens in my area I will attend and voice my opinion. Mr. Hulbert please don't take this the wrong way, I respect the heck out of you and understand how many muskies return to the depths from your hands, but until legislation prohibiting keeping a legal fish there is not much I can do about the clubbers out there. I am just gonna keep releasing and casting. If someone keeps a 54 out of Green Bay I certainly don't agree with his/her decision to keep it but I will not rip them up for it. Ted Bisbee | ||
| MikeHulbert |
| ||
Posts: 2427 Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | Sorry for posting such an analogy... Didn't think people would take it so seriously. And no, the 55 incher didn't die. I was right back out there in the morning. If it was floating, it would have seen it. Trust me. Let me guess....you were the ONE walleye boat that right beside me when we caught it right?? You were there, right??? You were there the next morning at 5:30 am right beside me....right?? I didn't think so. Sorry to start such a huge fight. Just stating my opinion, which is once again obviously wrong again. | ||
| AWH |
| ||
Posts: 1243 Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | So let's say a devoted christian says they won't judge people with other religious beliefs, are they being hypocritical? Just another analogy.... I'm definitely 100% catch and release. I don't care how big it is. If I know someone that is out to keep a musky for the wall, I can guarantee that they won't be fishing in my boat. Nothing against them personally, but I am not going to be a part of that. I wish we had higher size limits across the board. I wouldn't mind total catch and release regulations. But rather than complain about size limits that are too low, we need to get out there as musky anglers and do something about it. My hats off to those that get out there and make a difference. Aaron | ||
| sworrall |
| ||
Posts: 32885 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Your opinion is fine, Mike, I get what you are trying to say because I know you. Others, who don't know you, might misunderstand. Thus I pointed out the foibles. | ||
| MikeHulbert |
| ||
Posts: 2427 Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | Worrall, I appreciate the fact that you understand what I am saying. I guess that's one problem with typing things and not actually hearing the converstaion or knowing the person personally you are having the conversation with. I guess that is what makes America so great...if all we have to bitch about is keeping a fish...then we must have it pretty good! | ||
| muskellunged |
| ||
Location: Illinois | It's alright, Mike- you should speak your mind! It's a credit to you that you'll speak out for your beliefs. I can't count how many times I"VE put my foot in my mouth or said things the wrong way! I understand your point, about it being a cut and dry issue. I knew deep down what you meant, but reacted bullishly anyway. My bad! Can't we all just get along??  Mike Witowski | ||
| sworrall |
| ||
Posts: 32885 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Guest, The fish was released. Everyone knows there is at least a 5 tp o 10% mortality rate from CPR. Is this an example? Maybe, but one thing for sure, if Mike had bonked that fish it wouldn't have had ANY chance of survival. So maybe one of the locals released that fish, maybe Mike, maybe it just plain died. That happens too. Would it have been more acceptable if an 'in state' guide had been out there and released that fish? Enough already, let's get back to the topic at hand. | ||
| New Guest |
| ||
| I have heard estimates that delayed mortality kills maybe even as many as 10-20 percent of the fish released. Of course proper handling only helps to reduce these numbers. And experienced and commited CPR anglers are likely to be on the low end of these numbers. But fish die even when released by the best. One other thing, a dead fish does not always float... | |||
| tcbetka |
| ||
Location: Green Bay, WI | In one study done in 1980 (Beggs, see reference below), there was mortality as high as about 30%. However, in this study the fish were anesthetized and moved to a lab some distance away, surgically tagged, transported back to the water, and then released. Casselman (2005) also mentioned another study done on Tigers that indicated around 9-10% mortality. He also mentions (in that same report) that the true incidence of delayed mortality (although essentially unknown) is probably lowest amongst experienced musky anglers. I am not aware of additional studies, so if anyone knows of some...I am quite interested. Please point me in that direction. After literally hundreds of hours of researching this, it appears to me that no matter who you read, more education regarding CPR and the causes of delayed mortality goes a LONG way to minimizing death of the fish after release. I have an article published in the current issue of "Muskie" (January 2008 MI magazine) that talks about this very thing, and about some ways to minimize delayed mortality in these great fish. Finally, for those who don't belong to MI (what the heck are you waiting for, btw ?!?), here's a link to an article I wrote for one of the local boat dealers' newsletter: http://www.mroutboardsnewsletter.com/tips/dec07.html The plan here is education, pure & simple. It doesn't matter WHAT the size limit is, nor does it matter if it's total C&R or not--if the fish aren't handled properly, all the regulation in the world won't help much. TB References: Beggs, G.L., G.F. Holeton and E.J. Crossman. 1980. Some physiological consequences of angling stress in muskellunge, Esox masquinongy Mitchill. Journal of Fish Biology 17: 649-659. Casselman, S. J. 2005. Catch-and-release angling: a review with guidelines for proper fish handling practices. Fish & Wildlife Branch. Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. Peterborough, Ontario. 26 p. | ||
| esoxaddict |
| ||
Posts: 8775 | Ok, so now that we're apparently done attacking each other... The laws, whatever they are in your area, ARE. There's a segment of the population who will take whatever is legally theirs to take because their license entitles them to do so. We can argue until the cows come home over whether legal = acceptable, and we can preach here all we want. Neither is going to accomplish a THING. So what can we do as C&R advocates to encourage others to reconsider keeping that trophy before they even catch it? I suspect all of us at one time were in a place where we would have kept a really big musky. What changed YOUR mind? How did YOU get to be pro C&R? And more importantly, how can YOU (or how do you) help promote C&R in a way that actually WORKS? Here are some ways that I will use when talking to people about muskies: - People always look at my pictures and ask me "do you keep them" or "did you eat it"? I will usually say something like "no, they're fun to catch but they're no good to eat" or "no we release them all. There's only about 1 musky per acre of water, so they're pretty scarce as it is, might only be a couple hundred in the whole lake..." - Sometimes I'll tell people about the fish down here on the Fox Chain that's been caught three times that I know of, or just mention how many muskies die before they get big. - Even a simple "nah, I'd rather let someone else catch it." or "if we kept them, a few years down the road you'd be lucky to see one in a week of fishing" can make people think. - Sometimes I'll mention that they don't reproduce sucessfully because of shoreline development, or tell someone that a big muskie might be 20 years old, or what it costs to stock them... Instead of bickering, why not focus on what we can DO. So lets hear it -- anybody got any bright ideas? | ||
| tcbetka |
| ||
Location: Green Bay, WI | Well, let me tell you what we are doing in Green Bay... 1) A "signage" campaign is underway, to create appropriate signs for display at the local landings. 2) Efforts are also underway to explore ways in which we can indicate to receptive anglers (either at the landings, or on the water itself) which boats they can approach for *non-confrontational* assistance with unhooking, measuring, handling, photographing (or whatever) muskellunge. While there are many guys out there who are targeting muskies directly, there are also MANY "incidental" musky anglers that are catching these fish while out for walleye, for example. Given the potential size of some of the fish we have seen, we feel that many of these anglers will benefit (and would welcome) assistance in handling these magnificent fish. In fact, this very thing happened with a 48" fish caught by a walleye angler during the 2007 Best-of-the-Best tournament in October. One of our MI judge boats was kind enough to assist the angler in successfully netting and releasing the fish...a great outcome for all involved. 3) I personally am participating with Steve Worrall and MF in the educational campaign mentioned in the "Musky Research" portion of the forum. While I do not practice as a biologist, I do have training as a fisheries biologist, and I do practice medicine. So I know a bit about the physiology of living things, and this is quite helpful as many of the responses to stress seen in fish are very similar to those seen in humans. 4) Finally, we are trying to reach as many non-forum anglers as possible. I have written an article that appears in this month's MI magazine, as well as an article in the newsletter that I linked to in my first post. Other guys in our coalition are speaking to the public at the musky shows and on their shows (Pete Maina, Joe Bucher); and MANY other guys are just trying to get the word out to everyone who'll listen about the values of C&R for maintaining the fishery. The number of folks in the musky coalition is well into the hundreds, so everybody knows someone that will benefit from this information. So while there are certainly other things that can be done, and *will* be done in the future, the folks in the Green Bay Musky Coalition have realized that it isn't JUST about regulation. We are all trying to put our money where our mouth's are, and show some incentive to get things going in a positive direction. But the most important thing that has been done so far is discussion! By raising these issues and brainstorming with a group of people, great ideas are generated. Eventually these ideas propagated into action, and the ball is in motion. Keep in mind though, that the effort (at least in GRB) is in its infancy...so there are many things that need to be accomplished. TB | ||
| sworrall |
| ||
Posts: 32885 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | TB, I guess the discussion here made the papers in Rhinelander yesterday. Anyone see that article? | ||
| muskellunged |
| ||
Location: Illinois | esoxaddict - 1/24/2008 2:10 PM So what can we do as C&R advocates to encourage others to reconsider keeping that trophy before they even catch it? That's a good question. I believe the answer is to begin a marketing campaign that documents the economics of getting a skin mount. By appealing to people's common sense and educating them about reproduction mounts. I think many folks don't think about a musky sitting in their freezer while they figure how to afford a skin mount. In reality, they don't have to have a muskicle all that they need is a good photo. Distributing a pro-repro message to the public is step #1. Encouraging repros over skin mounts of all species, not just muskies. Advertise this message in multispecies and other species magazines. How can we get the ball rolling? Make a proposal to our musky clubs. See if we can't come up with a clever advertisement and the funds to buy ad space in places where they will make the most difference. Mike | ||
| MUSKYLUND1 |
| ||
Posts: 203 Location: Germantown, WI | I've gotta say I pretty much agree with Mr. Worrall on this one. As a rule I release every musky I catch and encourage others to do so also. Having said that I also realize that there is no reason for a 100% Catch and Release limit statewide in Wisconsin. There are some waters that are over populated by small fish that would likely benefit from more harvest. The comments Steve made about Cave Run regarding predator vs prey balance make sense to me. I think the biologists and fisheries managers are in a better position to make informed decisions than the average fisherman about things like that. The original post was about the 54" size limit on the waters of Green Bay. I'm sceptical about world record possiblities from these waters. It may be possible, but there is way too much talk about it. The current regulation is 50", which is a huge fish anywhere. I just read the article by Jordan Weeks in the latest issue of MuskyHunter in which he discusses whether increasing size limits is the silver bullet to managing our musky fisheries for trophy potential. Jordan basically says that they jury is out on whether this is really the silver bullet that many think it would be. The stories about a few individuals harvesting more than a few muskies over 50" from Green Bay in the past few years is saddening. It does not, however, mean that the population is in crisis or that imposing a 54" limit would help the fishery in the long term. Unless we make the fishery no harvest (catch and release) we can expect that there will always be some harvest. If GB is the next great up and coming trophy fishery then wouldn't increasing the limit just put off the inevitable for a couple more years for those few fish that will be harvested? Just about all the studies I am aware of indicate that current harvest rates are very low for muskies statewide in Wisconsin and harvest rates have continued to decrease. Many of us diehard musky fishermen get a sick feeling when we see or hear of a large musky harvested by a someone fishing for panfish with a worm and 6# line. Part of that is concern for the fishery and part of that is most probably envy that we didn't catch the fish. We should all be aware that focusing more and more attention on GB, especially if we succeed in raising the size limit will ultimately lead to more not less musky deaths. Delayed mortality will likely increase as fishing pressure increases, i.e. the more muskies that are caught the more that will die. It's unfortunate and we need to educate on proper catch and release, but it's a fact. I fear that increasing the limit to 54" will cement the idea of musky fisherman as elitists in the minds of many. Remember that we share the resource with all residents and license holders regardless of whether they fish for musky or not. In my opinion 50" is enough. I will release what I catch. If I am priviledged some day to catch a fish over 50" I will get a graphite reproduction "if my wife says it's OK". If I catch the world record, I will hope that I do not have a heart attack on the spot. Whatever happens after than is hard to predict. Just my opinion. Tom Ramsey | ||
| Justin Gaiche |
| ||
Posts: 355 Location: Wausau, Wisconsin | Wow I just wrote something really long and deleted it all. My head hurts. Don't attack people, get along, promote the sport, preserve the resource, trust biology, educate. The negativity during sub zero temperatures is depressing. Everyone wants to catch more and bigger muskies. The fishing is the best it's ever been, let's preserve and celebrate. | ||
| Cowboyhannah |
| ||
Posts: 1451 Location: Kronenwetter, WI | I DON'T GET KEEPING A FISH 1. REPLICAS WILL BE ENJOYED BY YOUR GREAT GRANDKIDS, WHILE A MOUNT WILL ROT. 2. YOU MAY CATCH THE FISH AGAIN IF YOU RELEASE IT. 3. BIG FISH GENES PASSED ON MEANS MORE BIG FISH. NO BRAINER. | ||
| Mr Musky |
| ||
Posts: 999 | I agree with Steve, there are plenty of lakes in Wisconsin that harvest would actually benefit the lake! So 100% C&R across the board does not always make a fishery better. There are many lakes that need higher size limits and there are many lakes that lower size limits then 34" would benefit the fishery. Mr Musky | ||
| john skarie |
| ||
| It's very difficult to study the effects of size limits, and other regs and how they impact populations. In MN, they banned spearing for a period of years on Cass Lake. The intent was to see if the muskie population would benefit from it. In the end they could not come to a conclusion about it because during the time of the study ,more and more anglers were practicing C&R. The adult population did increase, but they couldn't prove why. There are so many variables out of control of the Biologist, (fishing pressure, predator-prey relationships, how effective is sampling on a particular body of water, habitat destruction, etc. etc.) that many theories are not held up with concrete evidence. Common sense conbined with training and experience in the muskie world is what regs are made with more often than not in fisheries. Canada went C&R on Lac Suel, and it's been a huge success. Surely delayed mortality occurs, but the lake still has one of the healthiest trophy populations in the world even after 20 years of fishing pressure. The question really becomes how much improvement is realized with higher limits and even C&R. I really don't think you can argue that improvement won't occur, but is it significant? JS | |||
| sworrall |
| ||
Posts: 32885 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Spot on, lambeau and John. | ||
| Don Pfeiffer |
| ||
Posts: 929 Location: Rhinelander. | Thank you for all the really good replies to the post. I had a long reply all ready to go but decided against posting it. I will say this I don't buy it for a minute when anyone honks there own horn and says they are 100% c&r. If you catch alot of fish your going to have one that simply won't make it. You may have put it back into the system but it is just as dead as if in the bottom of your boat. On big fish say 54 and over I believ I am told delayed mortality is much higher then smaller fish. The fight of a bi fish so much more stressfull. Could it be thats why some of the fish are kept? An angler can see they won't make it so its kept. My thought on reproductions is its a reproduction. They are nice but not the real deal. As I get older I can't help but feel if I get my fish of a lifetime the real deal is going on the wall. It won't rot. They do require a little more tlc. Keeping the fish of a lifetime should bring congradulations and not be looked down on. I think the word elitists came up again and its unfortunate to think any of us have come to that or even close. Pfeiff | ||
| Cowboyhannah |
| ||
Posts: 1451 Location: Kronenwetter, WI | As far as will I come down on someone who legally takes a fish. No, but here's a story... I was at work when a guy comes in who I know fishes skies to pick up something...he was out with a buddy trolling and they picked up a 48. He said it was in the boat in the parking lot, did I want to look? No, thank you, I said. Not b/c I wanted to 'dis' this guy, but because I would not be comfortable even looking at the dead fish. I reminded him of replicas and he said they tried to release, but it was badly gill hooked and pumping blood...didn't make it. I took him at his word, congratulated him on a nice fish...but still was not interested in looking at the fish. | ||
| esoxaddict |
| ||
Posts: 8775 | I could see "it died" being used as an excuse to pacify the C&R nazis when someone is afraid to admit they kept it because they WANTED to. I can also see how any one of us here could easily have a 54"+ musky badly hooked, or fought for a long time, and just plain croak. When serious anglers have to worry about what we're going to tell people because we caught a big fish and the fish didn't make it, I think we've got a real problem on our hands. That problem is US. If you believe the odds, we've ALL killed muskies. And this 100% thing... Are we STUPID? "oh, I am 100% Catch and release!" like anybody is going to claim anything different? "Not me, I am 94.625% C&R!" But I still get an A in muskie release ethic, right? Do 'ya wonder why multi species anglers think we're a bunch of __________'s?? You know what I am? I'm just a guy who loves to fish. I do what I can to make sure the fish I catch swim off, unless I plan to eat them. I encourage others to do the same. I am a Muskies inc member, and I support the club by making regular donations. I also try to be a steward of the lakes and the land, leaving it no worse off than it was when I got there. I treat the fish and the environent they live in with respect. I treat other anglers and other people with respect. If I ever catch a really big fish and it ain't dead, I will take great pleasure in watching it swim off. If it doesn't, I'll decide from there what to do with it. If that ain't enough for somebody else out there, well... I don't give a flying *#*#, because if you got a problem with that, you got a problem. And that's all I got to say about it. | ||
| lambeau |
| ||
I could see "it died" being used as an excuse to pacify the C&R nazis when someone is afraid to admit they kept it because they WANTED to. I can also see how any one of us here could easily have a 54"+ musky badly hooked, or fought for a long time, and just plain croak. a) please use terms such as "Nazi" with extreme care. i'm inclined to remove posts that use that kind of incendiary language because it emotially shuts discussion down instead of rationally moving it forward. on the one hand we're talking about not berating people who (unfortunately) choose to harvest a fish. let's not berate those who advocate 100% release, either. agree or disagree and explain why? yes. call them names? no. b) any of us could "easily" have a 54" muskie croak? lol...good thing they're not quite so easy to find and catch than that! If that ain't enough for somebody else out there, well... I don't give a flying *#*#, because if you got a problem with that, you got a problem. And that's all I got to say about it. ironically, this is exactly the attitude that many people here (including you) are accusing the 100% release advocates of adopting...the "i don't care what you think" approach is unhelpful from people with either point of view. i personally think we can all benefit from listening to each other, considering the points of view, and discussing them. that doesn't happen if we stick our fingers in our ears just because we don't like what the other person is saying. | |||
| esoxaddict |
| ||
Posts: 8775 | Mike, as usual you failed to see the point I was trying to make... "C&R [...]" is a term that should make all of us think. That's why I used it. Not to make light of Hitler and his atrocities, but to get people to take a step back and think about how we come across sometimes, telling people what is and isn't an acceptable practice in fishing, DESPITE what the laws and biologists may say, completely ignoring logic and reason, condemning those who might choose to keep a fish... I've even heard someone say "so and so should be shot" because he kept a fish. Look at the criticism Tom Gelb got here for keeping that big fish, a fish that despite his desire to revive it, did not survive... There ARE people out there who read these discussions and think "#*^@ C&R [...]!" And that sort of alienation that we've created, when we've gone THAT far in pursuit of what is essentially a good thing? It's not a good thing anymore. It's extreme to the point of being counterproductive, and it defeats our cause. The term "[...]" IS offensive. The fact that it exists makes me think sometimes WE are offensive, and in being so are our own worst enemy. Again, as stated above, we ARE all playing for the same team here. Perhaps its time to act like it? At the risk of being deleted for using another poliitically incorrect analogy; "C&R Jihad" isn't going to win us any favor. When we cross the line from passion and enthusiasm, and cause others to use terms like "Nazi or Jihad" in reference to us and our efforts, what chance do we have at ever seeing our efforts succeed? And my last statement -- easy to dismiss, isn't it? Because of the "I don't care what anyone thinks" attitude I (intentionally) conveyed. You fell squarely into the trap, MIke. And thank you for that. Illustrated perfectly how "extremist" attitudes and statements can people to react, even people who essentially agree with us. | ||
| john skarie |
| ||
| It's interesting how people who practice and advocate "100% C&R" are labeled as "extremists". You don't have to look very far to see how effective, and neccesary 100% C&R can be. You guys think muskie fishing has pressure problems? Look at what happened to trout fishing in the 80's. Fly-Fishing was the fastest growing sport during that time. Rivers were jam packed, even the wilderness areas had drastic increases in pressure. Populations were decimated very quickly due to harvest, and delayed mortalities (trout are very sensitive to warm and low water conditions). 100% C&R saved many rivers. It didn't stop there; no live bait, barbless only and restrictive seasons and even hours were common. Because of that populations have rebounded back to being better than they were in many areas. Many of you may think it's extreme, but to others it's very sensible. John | |||
| Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 5 Now viewing page 2 [30 messages per page] |
| Search this forum Printer friendly version E-mail a link to this thread |
Copyright © 2024 OutdoorsFIRST Media |