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| Message Subject: Guide prices | |||
Pepper |
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Posts: 1516 | The times I have hired a guide I have always had a buddy along to split the cost and then the price is only $200.00 day. Not bad considering we fished about 14 hours some of those days. Never worked so hard fishing. | ||
| bn |
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| Last time I checked musky fishing is not a cheap sport. If a guide charges $400 and can book his calendar there are reasons that he or she can do that. Most likely they are a great fishermen and will try like heck to get their clients on big fish. Like Hulbert said some people don't want to invest in the fancy boat, all the rods/reels/lures etc and maybe only get a few days a year on the water and want a good shot at some fish. Think about how many days one could hire a guide even at $400 vs. the cost of one even avg, used Fiberglass boat, a few rods and some lures...then there are those that just want to learn more about a particular body of water and want to shorten the learning curve...to me that is why I do and will hire a guide...they have put in the time and money and if I spend one day with them picking their brain all day I can shorten the time it takes to learn a body of water...$400 could be relatively cheap in that respect... | |||
| Obfuscate Musky |
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Posts: 654 Location: MPLS, MN | If a guides take home was $300 a day after expenses on a normal work schedual that's $78,000 a year. Pretty good. | ||
| Tim Anderson |
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Posts: 32 Location: Brainerd, Minnesota | On behalf of the other guides in Northern Minnesota I would say this: that I have yet to hear a really poor comment on any of them. Each seem to have their own personality and style (in fact some are quite the characters), and each seem to get the job done in their own way. It's not really my style to sit here and try to defend myself as a guide, and why I charge what I do. Seems to me, bottom line, the best way to find out if a particular guide is "worth it" is to ask those that have hired him. We've heard from several guys on this thread who have hired various guides and it seems they only have good things to say. But if you're wondering, the easiest thing to do is ask the guide for a list of references. Get some for guys that caught fish, and some that didn't. You're going to find out real fast much about that particular guides character. From my perspective, most of the guides have come to accept a more meager/seasonal income in order to do something that they love. Many of us have second jobs or businesses that help us to make ends meet. One things for sure, I have yet to meet a guide who isn't on top of his game up here. All are afflicted with an obsession (a good thing) to catch these amazing fish and to learn everything we can about them in the process. If we are doing our job, we pass on what we learn to the client, who may pick up what it took months or years to learn in basically one trip. If I'm not guiding, I'm chasing muskies with my friends, or alone if I have to, and rarely take a day off. I love the lifestyle, and wouldn't have it any other way. I'm sure it's the same with the rest of the guides. My two cents..... Tim Anderson Big Fish Hunt Guide Service [email protected] | ||
| Guest |
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| Whrere are you going to guide 260 days a year??? | |||
| Obfuscate Musky |
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Posts: 654 Location: MPLS, MN | Guest - 1/7/2008 9:53 AM Whrere are you going to guide 260 days a year??? That doesn't matter, just because you work half a year doesn't mean you should get a full years pay. Also, I'm also not against the prices just a little easy math. | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | you've got to remember too though that it isn't "personal" income but rather "business" income and there's a big difference ... "business-expenses" don't come out of personal income. to run a business with equipment, trucks, boats, motors, auxiliary equipment etc... run that math and then come back with a more accurate report ... been there and done it and it's not worth it ... the guys who make a business and lifestyle out of it ... more power to you ... i personally think you're nuts ... but then i think that's a pre-requisite too! | ||
| lambeau |
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| thanks for registering and joining the conversation Tim, welcome! you've got a great looking website. http://www.bigfishhunt.com/ this is a "delicate" topic, and the public relations risk that guides take by speaking up here is noteworthy. Mike Hulbert, Tim Anderson, Richard Collin, Shane Mason, Steve Worrall, Brad Nelson, and Jon Solberg - thanks for taking the time to share what it's like from the full- or part-time guides point of view too. it's easy to take shots at guys who charge what at first seems like a big chunk of money. instead of focusing on the amount it costs, the better question (imho) is whether a guide's rate represents VALUE. i've only been out one time with a guide who i was disappointed with, and most times i've been very happy and felt it was me taking advantage of them due to the amount of hard work they put in. | |||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | try just once having an equipment problem the night before or the day of a booked date ... that was enough for me. how these guys are able to run it as a full-time business is beyond me and the time outside of that on the water is limited and they're tired but the boat, baits, rods, reels, oil reservoir, gas tank, and on and on and on are screaming "feed me" or "fix me" ... i honestly don't know how those guys keep the pace ... i know i enjoyed a part-time thing at one time and when i was dialed in i could do well ... burn-out, passion, kids, life ... etc... took me away. for me it was post-divorce and i would rather have been on the water than anywhere at the time .... now life is a lot different. i'm imagining that a guiding lifestyle sacrifices quite a bit of personal space ... LOL ... there should be a reward for that kind of sacrifice and seems there is cause these guys keep filling their books each year. | ||
| castmaster |
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 Posts: 910 Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "you've got to remember too though that it isn't "personal" income but rather "business" income and there's a big difference ... "business-expenses" don't come out of personal income. to run a business with equipment, trucks, boats, motors, auxiliary equipment etc... " But then you also have to remember they get to deduct many of the expenses the rest of us also incur. I also have a boat payment and upkeep/repair expenses. I also have insurance, tackle and electronics etc. Now I know the prices for a guides insurance are quite a bit higher, I know a guides equipment gets more use/abuse. I also know many guides get a discount on rods/reels and tackle. Discounts on electronics, some even get discounts on boats and the option not to make a payment until the end of the year(which is why you see numerous guide boats for sale in the fall of each year, they sell that one and order next years), the difference being those expense for me come POST tax not PRE tax! Its no different than anyone else operating a business. I have about $10k invested in scaffolding and other equipment, a truck that gets 20k+ miles a year put on it, trailer to haul equipment over $2 million in liability and other insurance etc etc etc. The main difference here is that the equipment I havbe to buy and maintain is pretty much only good for work, where as a guide gets to use and enjoy his "work equipment" in his down time and throughout the reamainder of the season after he;s done guiding. Their equipment serves them while on vacation in Canada etc. So if the average guide is $400 a day and booked solid for his season(figure 100 days) he's grossing $40,000 in 3 1/2 months of work. He then has 8 1/2 months of "off" time to generate additional income. Heck I notice many guides are employed in the teaching profession the rest of the year and guide in the summer months! So I dont think they are overpriced(obviously the market will bear what they are charging) but I also dont think we should be taking up any collections for the "poor" guides! I have mroe of a problem with the idea of requiring the client to also buy lunch, and also with the whole tipping deal. To me if you are self employed with the ability to set your own prices at what they need to be to cover expenses and turn a profit you shouldnt need to be tipped at the end of the day. And to have someone pay $400 for a day of guiding and expect them to buy your lunch as well is a bit over the top to me! Edited by castmaster 1/7/2008 11:09 AM | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | CM ... so, a $40k gross business income with all the expenses required + a $25k - 30k teaching job is extreme? ... sorry, but i still don't get it. are you saying that if it's tax-deductable it doesn't become a debit and it becomes essentially free? ... send me the address of your accountant! ... LOL my guess is that you might not fit the description of the client they're targeting? i fly 400,000 miles a year ... i fly gold elite status on NW and Premier Executive on United ... could go anywhere, anytime and never pay a dime (call this my boat) ... co-workers, friends and family talk about how great it must be to have all those miles ... LOL ... (i'm drawing a corellation to your argument that a guide gets free boats and gets to play with them when they aren't working) ... what some may see as perks mean nothing if you're living the reality of it. my guess is that a guide uses their boat for pleasure about as often as i fly for pleasure. when it's your job and you give most of your life's time doing it the best thing you could have are the 21 weekends that you gave away either on a plane or in a boat for the sake of this argument. i'm sorry, but if i'm working 9 mos. as a teacher and guiding 100 days of 14 hour plus days and maintaining a life ... i'm picking something else to do on my spare time instead of cheating my clients by playing in my ranger ... | ||
| nwild |
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Posts: 1996 Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I am reluctantly responding to this just because I feel I should. Usually when someone has the idea that someone has it way to good you will not change there mind, but here goes anyway. First off let me state that my daily rate is $325, and I guide in Northern Wisconsin. My rate is higher than some and lower than others for the area I guide. The premise that a guide should work 10+ hours a day I agree with. I always try to keep clients on the water until dark, the start time is up to them. I have found that sunset is one of the most productive times on the water, and I want to give my clients the best shot at a fish. They are spending their hard earned money on me, and I want them to be successful. The premise that a guide has to work every day however, I do not agree with. I do take down time for my own personal fishing, fishing a tourney or two, work around the house, time with the wife, etc. Guiding, believe it or not, is work. If you have problems believing that, you have never done it for 7 straight days. No one (except dairy farmers), is expected to work every day for a six month period, so all of the income analysis above are skewed. On an average day I fish about 11 hours with clients. Take off the top the $100 of gas that goes in my truck and boat tanks that leaves $225. Barring any other expenses that it seems some want to discount that leaves about $20/hr. Hardly get rich money at all. Two years ago I had clients that wanted to rent a decent boat for a day of fishing. After doing some research they found that for an extra $50 a day, they could fish out of my brand new boat and be guided for the entire day. All of a sudden the guide fee didn't seem all that expensive. Edited by nwild 1/7/2008 12:59 PM | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8865 | Norm, you say you average about $20/hour... What about the investments you had to make in terms of equipment and insurance to be able to make that $20? Boat, truck, rods, reels, tackle, it's gotta add up. Because let's be real for a second... $20/hour isn't great money when all you have to do is show up at a job every day and invest nothing to be able to do it because its someone else's equipment. Then you factor in the fact that a "normal job" is 250 days a year, with paid vacation, health insurance, 401k, etc. and suddenly a guide business making $20/hour doesn't amount to a whole lot. Yes, $400 is a hell of a lot to spend for a day fishing and potentially not even catching anything. I sat down and figured out what I spent for guides over the last 4 years and I could have bought a Ranger! But this notion that full time guides are getting rich is just plain stupid. | ||
| nwild |
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Posts: 1996 Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | esoxaddict - 1/7/2008 1:33 PM Norm, you say you average about $20/hour... What about the investments you had to make in terms of equipment and insurance to be able to make that $20? Boat, truck, rods, reels, tackle, it's gotta add up. EA, I intentionally left those items out because some seem to think it unfair that I get to claim them as an expense while they don't. My Bulldawg bill alone this year was more than a days fee, largely used and abused by clients. But I won't even count that.  | ||
| happy hooker |
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Posts: 3165 | skin cancer isnt worth it | ||
| Fin-Addict |
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Posts: 101 Location: Liberty, IN (OKI Tri-State) | "Among the best investments one can make when venturing forth in search of the elusive masquinongy, no matter the waters She calls Home; the Ahab's of the Musky World - a Professional/Full-Time MUSKY Guide - cannot be underestimated!" annonomyus... following 52-inch-plus release on LOTW (thanks again Greg) God Bless EVERY SINGLE ONE of you that have the faith and endurance to follow your passion; LIVING a lifestyle that many of us fancifully imagine as a dream-come-true way of life... yet actually "getting it to pay the bills", makes you ALL, in my humble opinion, akin to the Cowboy or even Long Hunters of eras past. Free spirted men & women who give less than a 'tinker's #*^@' what the rest of us think or do as you cut your own trail! I have been very fortunate throughout my work the past few years for getting to know and spend time on the water with several of the TOP full & part-time Musky specific guides/outfitters across the whole of North America and want to testify to any reading this post that, without exception, those I know exhibit a passion and drive that is far beyond the norm for even the most passionate enthusiasts among us. They belong to & support numerous conservation efforts on behalf of this amazing fish; speak & present semminars etc. And almost NEVER watch the clock while on the water... with OR without a client in the boat! They are, without exception, by my experience anyway, like taking a college level on-the-water course. If you do your homework and let your chosen Guide 'do their thing' according to conditions... You'll be back too! Let 'em fish; especially if you want 'learn their specific specialty lure/presentation techniques' (your loss if you don't) Let 'em talk; talk about some 'characters'? Musky Guides got some serious BS .. LOL (and years of experience) Let 'em share; these folks LOVE to share their LOVE, if you let 'em (Learn, share memories,& maybe experience "THAT" fish) Don't be a hater ... this is ONE HELLUVA way to make a living and is really more likely a sign of some maddness we all share to a lesser degree than those with the HEART to commit to it's hardship vs. reward lifestyle. My hat is off .. my hopes high, Bob O | ||
| TheWaterWolf |
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Posts: 106 | Boy, this one really has two sides to the arguement I can't afford $400 for a guide but also know that the insurance and other costs are awful so I'm one of those who both hates and understands why were at where were at I'd like to thank all those who will take a guy out just to fish in there area this is the type of thing we need to do more of in the future, I've done both the offering and the taking out and really have enjoyed it. Thanks Karl Knuth | ||
| other brother daryl |
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Mike Hulbert, Tim Anderson, Richard Collin, Shane Mason, Steve Worrall, Brad Nelson, and Jon Solberg - thanks for taking the time to share what it's like from the full- or part-time guides point of view too. | |||
| Shane Mason |
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| What hasnt been touched on is what guides also give back. Most guides I know donate several dates each year on their own dime to help out where they can. Fund raising efforts, or other good causes. "Operation Muskie" for example which Norm is involved in. I think these things tend to go unnoticed sometimes. With the show/banquet season coming up I am sure there will be plenty of chances at winning one of these donated dates. Also most guides I know are pretty approachable, dont be afraid to pick up the phone or drop an email, or even say hi at the boat landings. Most have no problem throwing a guy a bone or two if asked. A phone call or email wont cost you much. | |||
| Don Pfeiffer |
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Posts: 929 Location: Rhinelander. | simple, when I have clients I ask if they want me to fish or not. I actually would rather not if two clients in the boat. I can concentrate more on whats going on and feel better about it. Pfeiff | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32959 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | castmaser, If you don't buy me lunch, I don't show you the spot in which Norm's "queen' lives. Of course expenses are tax deductible. Ob...I'm taxed at about 39% so the $275 take home is now gross income, then SS has to come out, and takes paid, and insurance paid, etc.... I BETTER have deductions. Can't guide Muskies until last Saturday May, most are pretty much done by Nov. 10 or so. Lucky ( and obviously a good guide) to be booked 5 days a week, (do YOU work 6 or 7?) so do your fuzzy math again. Weather and cancellations will eat up a day a week, etc... You can tip or not, Sport. | ||
| mikie |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | From a consumer-of-guide-services point of view: I want to travel to muskie country. I take a week off work (paid vacation, value about $1200 gross), put $200 gas in the car, pay $60-80/night for motel lodging, another couple hundred for food; then stock up on baits, gear, all that. I want a bang for my buck, so I hire a guide for the first day or two of the trip to get me started on patterns so that by the end of the week I may actually be catching fish. Guide's daily rate seems like a drop in the bucket from that perspective. God bless you all for being there to help me, m | ||
| Ob |
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sworrall - 1/7/2008 11:43 PM . Ob...I'm taxed at about 39% so the $275 take home is now gross income, then SS has to come out, and takes paid, and insurance paid, etc.... I BETTER have deductions. Can't guide Muskies until last Saturday May, most are pretty much done by Nov. 10 or so. Lucky ( and obviously a good guide) to be booked 5 days a week, (do YOU work 6 or 7?) so do your fuzzy math again. Weather and cancellations will eat up a day a week, etc... You can tip or not, Sport. Sounds like my job, Other than I don't make as much per hour. Yes I'm in Construction so sometimes I do work 6-7 days a week, I work when thiers work. When there is poor weather sometimes I don't get to work. I have no problem with what anyone charges, we live in a capitalist society. I try to get as much as I can, just think if your charging $400 a day plus most people I'd guess tip, your doing pretty good considering your doing what most of us wish we could. I never said anything about tips? I've been on two guided trips and tipped both times. | |||
| Tim Anderson |
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Posts: 32 Location: Brainerd, Minnesota | Fin-addict.......you understand! Well said. Tim Anderson Big Fish Hunt Guide Service [email protected] | ||
| Trophymuskie |
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Posts: 1430 Location: Eastern Ontario | Shane Mason just mentioned all the days and money we donate to the cause but also you have to take into account the publicity costs and website costs and even more expensive are muskie shows. You know my cost to do the Chicago muskie show this weekend is $1750 ( $600 booth, $400 Motel, $400 gas, $200 food, $150 pictures ) which I have to find someone to share some of these expenses with or I just could not afford it. And that's just one show a lot of guides do several shows. | ||
| greg m |
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Posts: 359 Location: Wauwatosa, Wisconsin | This is a very interesting thread and I appreciate all of the comments made here. As a service provider myself who charges clients for my time I am acutely aware of the pressures to balance fees with value (can you tell I'm a CPA? Who else would start out talking about being in balance?). I empathize greatly with the guides. At first blush it seems like these guys are living the dream, charging big bux for MUSKIE FISHING! Could it possibly get any better?!? But when you correctly "do the math", factoring in all of the direct costs involved and then including the overhead and indirect costs, the reality is that these guys are not making a killing. Then also consider some of the other business risks that have been mentioned: cancellations due to weather or customers, equipment problems and the downtime needed for repair and/or preventive maintenance, personal sickness or injury, relatively short seasonality. And how about the lack of a personal life during the season as these guys try to "make hay while the sun shines"? How much do they see their wives and children. Worst of all, I think of how I feel after a weeklong musky hunting trip standing in my boat casting for 12+ hours a day for 6 days, loving every minute of it, leaving feeling refreshed and renewed to get on with the regular daily grind again. After pounding for a week I'm usually ready to call it quits before my hand becomes permanently locked in that rod gripping position. Makes me wonder how much joy is taken out of musky fishing when it is your job. As correctly stated or inferred by previous writers, the economics of supply and demand will ultimately dictate the "going rates". Although I was a huge proponent of Reaganomics and the supply-side economic movement of the 80's, in this case I believe the Keynesian demand-stimulus economics model is more relevant. Musky hunting popularity has sky-rocketed and that fuels the impetus for guide service demand. Those who are experiencing "sticker shock" are likely struggling with the fact that we are not talking about one of life's necessities, but rather recreational, leisure-time spending. It is easy to understand how Joe Schmoe making $20 - $25 an hour struggles with paying a guide $50 per hour. That is a justification process that each one of us needs to reconcile in our own minds. Thus, whether or not a guide is making decent money, or not, is not the real issue here, IMO. The guides can and will charge whatever the market will bear which, for now, is being driven by demand. However, this demand will change over time because it is not based solely on numbers. The guides must provide a quality experience to extend their demand curve and achieve longevity. There must be value perceived by, and defined by, the customer. Whether it be educational, results-driven (fish in the boat), or entertainment value. There are many outstanding guides doing tremendous jobs, on the water and off - keep up the good work, boys. Conversely, the demand-driven scenario has also caused the supply of guides to increase as guys see an opportunity to make a buck, resulting in the sad reality of some lesser qualified/experienced guides "riding the wave". Gotta be careful - caveat emptor. Now for a commercial. I visit this site on a daily basis and I often wonder how I might contribute to this Muskie Community since I am not a muskie hunting expert yet. Well, it's TAX TIME - now is when I must "make hay while the sun shines", and I'm thinking I should offer some kind of tax return preparation discount to my fellow MuskieFIRSTers. I have clients throughout the country from California to Massachusetts, and especially in the upper midwest "muskie" states. I have a Masters Degree in Taxation, my own CPA Firm, and 30 years of professional experience. I will give this a little thought as to what might be appropriate if there is interest. I would be especially interested in hearing from guides who might be interested in accounting/tax services in exchange for a day on the water. Greg Martin | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8865 | Another thing nobody mentioned is what you actually get out of a guide trip. It's more than a day on the water, FAR more than that. As someone who has fished almost exclusively with guides, I have to admit that I owe most of my knowledge and skill as a muskie angler to those experiences. Everything from reading conditions, to lure presentation, understanding structure, baitfish movements, doing a good figure 8, learning a new lake... You're in the boat with someone who has probably spent 1000 days or more on that body of water chasing muskies in all sorts of conditions and at all different times of the year. You're not just paying for fishing, you're paying for that knowledge. And that's knowledge that you can get in a day, something it may have taken that guide years to figure out, something you may not have figured out on that lake on your own. I think about that sometimes, after I catch a fish. "Would I be standing here holding this fish if I weren't for the guides who have taken the time to help me be a better muskie fisherman?" The answer is usually "no". Can you really put a price on that? | ||
| bn |
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| I get a kick out of the guys that think musky guiding is not hard work, and that somehow these guys are getting paid to fish and it's all gravy...think about the countless days they HAVE to fish in a row, even the days with 30 mph winds out of the north and it's 35 degree's out but they have paying clients that want to fish...do you think there aren't quite a few days guides have no desire to really fish but they have to because they are booked..sure there are days it's 75, sunny and light winds and it's a great day...but think of all the days they put in and how many of those could be considered "fun" Anyone that thinks guiding for a living is easy hasn't fished all that much imo. The best guides earn every penny.... | |||
| sorenson |
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Posts: 1764 Location: Ogden, Ut | I think I'm gonna be a professional hockey player - man those guys have it good. Get payed to play hockey...what a life! S. | ||
| Pointerpride102 |
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Posts: 16632 Location: The desert | sorenson - 1/8/2008 10:41 AM I think I'm gonna be a professional hockey player - man those guys have it good. Get payed to play hockey...what a life! S. No offense buddy, but I think you're trying to put on the skates a bit passed your prime.....Maybe just stick to putting in those Guzzler things? | ||
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