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| I think it will have little to no effect...fishing in the northern half of the state can be tough as it is depending on water temps etc ON the normal opener which is a 3 day weekend for most people to get away and go fish...I don't think this new C&R season will change peoples annual trips on Mem. Day weekend to go fishing...
imo.
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | VMS,
To answer your question, not much.
Shane,
Please show me where we disagree. By the way, I'm a 'guide up north' too. |
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Posts: 272
| Steve-
You must have some special word scrambling filter on your end that turns my posts into violent actions or something.
If you look back, I have maintained through this entire thread, that this information may be in the interest of anglers, so they can make informed decisions on where/how/who they spend their money with.
Where's the bash? Who's throwing stones? Stating a fact, that someone did something, is not throwing stones or bashing. Its called the truth, and sometimes it hurts.
I get this feeling like you're seeing me as the tazmanian devil uncontrollably spinning my way north to flatten the city of Eagle River. For the life of me, I cannot figure where that is coming from.
I never asked you or M1st to publish ANYTHING about this. I asked why names haven't been mentioned by anyone. It seems that this is stuff that in this day and age should be....would be... "out there" and I was wondering why it wasn't.
Edited by muskie-addict 1/3/2008 11:55 AM
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| VMS my old buddy i'll try to answer your question.
i am opposed to the catch and release season. i am very upset at how it got passed and very upset at the 2 guides in ER that put their own personal pockets in front of the fish.
sled, neither one of the 2 people that i believe are responsible for getting Meyer to push for it in the budget bill have any trouble getting potatoes for the table at all.
i am greatly opposed due to the biologists not being consulted and a study done on its effect to the fish. i am also worried about unethical people going into the shallows and snagging fish that are spawning with lures. i can see that happenning.
as far as "what if "when it comes to the GB coalition. i too would pull out if its not done right.
the original 54"resolution was proposed and pushed before VHS was discovered in WI and in lake michigan i believe.as stated so many times before, the resolution passed more than 3 to 1 in 25 of 26 counties it was proposed in. then it got shot down in the great lakes committee. definitely not the will of the people. now the variables have changed with the possible onset of VHS . an emergency rule needs to be put in til we see whats going to happen.
but anyway back to the question.
i think musky fishing early in the season relates to success or lack of on water temps. i have fished the open season lakes in april several years in a row. when we do well, it seems to be warmer. 1 year we caught a musky that had been caught about 3 weeks prior. so my guess is it will all relate to water temps.
warm should equal good fishing. but if it warms to fast like it did in 2006, then its almost like a cold front to the fish.
hopefully the early season catch and release season is overturned.
but thats my opinion.
dannyboy
dannyboys guide service
musky crazy
laona,wi
715-674-2061
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'There is no "rumor or innuendo" in KNOWING who it was behind this. Wouldn't the readers on here like to know who it was that pushed for this so they could choose for themselves whether or not to support the guides and/or their brick and mortar businesses as well?'
'No offense, but sure seems obvious there was a muskie angler lobby behind this. After all, the bill allows for a new, longer musky fishing season......and this very topic was brought up, by guides, with the CC and spring hearings and shot down at least twice.
To answer your last question, the motivation would be to inform people, so they can choose to avoid spending money with the guides and business people behind it. Otherwise, they win, without consequence, and "we" take it in the shorts.'
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The intent here, sir, is pretty obvious.
Good debate, actually, and I do so love a good debate.... |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | dannyboy ... i heard he was selling everything and moving to florida |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | O.k...QUESTION...
How has the fishing been on the Border lakes with Michigan? (please elaborate too...)
Reason I ask is if memory serves me correctly, Michigan, and waters bordering it open the first weekend in May. So...if being open is law in another year, (aye or nay for having it) will it make a HUGE or significant impact on the fisheries?
Lastly, and let us all be honest with ourselves here please...how many of you WOULD take advantage of the C&R season?
I can honestly say I would not since those first weeks are spent getting a MN cabin up and running for the summer, along with the traditional walleye opener. Then, a weekend off to get things prepared for muskeis before memorial day in Boulder Junction area. I am not for it either...guess I grew up with fish being protected during spawn.
DannyBoy!! Good to hear from you!! And thanks for the response!!
From what I can tell...this was a backdoor deal. Definitely sounds underhanded to say the least, but what do we expect of special interest groups and politicians? Seems to fit well with what we all see in most areas of the political arena.
Steve |
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Posts: 8856
| Is there any verified research out there that shows fishing during the spawn really poses a threat to the fishery?
I don't know where I stand on this one honestly. My inclination is to believe this won't amount to a hill of beans in terms of the fishery. If it means a few extra rooms booked, a few extra meals served, etc. than I can see some value in it. The resort/guide/tourism business ain't a goldmine up North, and the prognosis for it suddenly turning into it is not good.
We can argue until the cows come home about how the process is flawed, how politics shoudn't play a part in decision making, how such-and-such-a guide was in favor of the proposal or not. (Is it any wonder that the guides we all wish would participate here avoid these forums like the plague???)
What I am asking is pretty simple:
Is this a cause for concern? Yes, season openers were designed to protect spawning fish. But that legislation was imposed during a time when fish caught were fish eaten.
If someone can demonstrate legitimate scientific biological reasons why this is an issue we should concern ourselves with, I'd like to see them. Otherwise I have to ask:
Is this worth our time and energy? |
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | Your point about the Michigan border waters is something I feel people are forgetting about here. I know quite a few anglers jump up there at the opportunity to fish early. They don't seem to have a problem with that season open earlier, but have a problem with this.
I can say I definetely would take advantage of it. For me, it might be nothing more then getting the boat out earlier in the year and making sure all the equipment is functioning properly while tossing a few musky baits. I don't think that this is a very big deal like some do. I think people have a legitimate gripe about how this law was enacted, but I just don't see the doom and gloom to the fishery that some are projecting. |
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'll probably do some fishing for the post spawn fish on the sand in the shallows if the law stays in place. Sight fishing using a small creature, used to do that alot when the season opened same day as the WI opener. The fish I caught were to a fish spawned out and on the feed, if that matters, and were usually the third week of May and a bit later. I fished walleyes and Pike earlier than that, most years.
Michigan waters bordering Wi waters are really very good, in fact, extremely good muskie fishing.
I think the overall biological impact will be small. I'll wait for a fisheries professional to say otherwise and explain why, and defer at that point. I know studies on spawning Bass and a C&R season were done, and some states opened a C&R season after the studies indicated no real harm done to the fishery. Since bass are nesters, and do not broadcast the spawn and get out of Dodge, it seems to me that a near impossible to catch spawning female would most likely spawn first, and get caught later. Perhaps the stress of capture added to spawning stress would increase angler related mortality...to what extent?
Anyone who would try to snag a spawning muskie wouldn't much give a hoot about a season, anyway, it would seem, since intentionally snagging muskies is very much illegal. |
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| hey sled let me know when they're headed out of town and we'll go pop a tab and wave goodbye!!!!!!!!!!!!!ha!ha!!!!!!!!!!!
VMS the michigan season always opens on May15 not our first sat. in may fishing openner. i havent fished those lakes at that time but some on here might be able to answer that.
as i stated on another board, i will not guide on the C&R season except on the open season lake upon request. i will continue to put sound biology and the fish first.
as i stated at the headwaters meeting last evening, i talked to about 50 of the 250 in attendance at the GB coalition meeting and not one was happy about the new C&R season. my guess is almost everyone in attendance is also against. but i cant prove it. something needs to be done.
dannyboy
dannyboys guide service
musky crazy
laona,wi
715-674-2061
www.dannyboysguideservice.com
[email protected] |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i hear ya dannyboy ...
after reading this it's interesting to see people who agree and continue to argue with each other ... seems like displaced frustration over the "how" this was handled rather than disagreement amongst fellow anglers with a conservation mindset.
for what it's worth i'll definitely be out on the water but likely will be there to get the boat and all of the stuff working and make sure that i'm ready when the fish start to actively feed ... i tend to focus on water temps., weed growth and active fish and tend to pass on days that i don't think it's going to be worth it to fish ... so, if the water temps. are still really cold i'll hit the river and if it sucks i'll skip fishing altogether til conditions suit me and my style and do something else like catching big crappies in the wood ... or playing golf ...
i agree with above in that it's not going to be that disruptive so why put the energy into being so argumentative .... now, if there's a bunch of snaggers out there that would get my ire up ... of-course it would be illegal though and i would hope be treated as such. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | A couple of observations and opinions.
I HATE the way this was made into law, yes it’s part of the process, but it shouldn’t be. Politicians live by the sword they should die by the sword. The system is in place and everyone is told that is what we have and we have to live with it. There are many items out there that the biologist want to get done, but they can’t because of the spring hearing process, and here biological changes are made without even consulting them after they are clearly defeated in the spring hearing process for a number of years in a row. You think fishermen are upset about this, I bet the DNR professional Biologists are fit to be tied and they have to remain restrained because of even more politics.
As far as will this affect the fishery, I sure hope not. The good thing is nothing has come to light that says it will.
Regarding the border Lake opener, we have been taking the day off working and fishing May 15th for probably 5 years now, some years are great some not so much. Best year numbers wise, 3 guys fishing out of one boat caught 9 fish. We also had 11 fish between two boats with one over 45 inches. We also have been skunked. It’s like musky fishing any other time of the year.
I also agree with Steve if people are going to snag fish they will do it regardless of a C&R season. They can’t legally keep it anyway. If it could be kept there would probably be more cases of snagging.
As far as extra tourism, I don’t see it and that’s were more opinions would have been nice. First off the C&R season opens the same day as the southern opener. Chances of a consistent bite are better the farther south you go that time of year, so my guess is most avid musky fishermen will continue with there southern opener traditions. Some who live north and normally don’t travel south might not travel which would be a net loss for the state. Most of the people that will be fishing this C&R season will be people that normally stick around for the walleye opener anyway, now we can cast for musky during the day rather than try and find deep walleye.
Considering the fish will see pressure starting the first Saturday in May there will be NO reason for southern musky fishermen to make the journey to Northern Wisconsin for that shot at unpressured fish on Memorial Day weekend. Again net loss in tourism dollars, though it’s hard to see that dollar because so many people are coming north for other recreational activities at that time. But I bet it will be there, there is no incentive for the pure musky enthusiasts. Especially considering this is the first big weekend we have to start sharing the lake with jet skies.
If this early season comes to pass, I will fish muskies. Unless it’s proven to me that the C&R season will hurt the fishery. The openers are traditionally good because the fish haven’t been pounded for 6 months. By not choosing to fish during May, I would be giving up that one, small though it may be, advantage. I will however still do the traditional family walleye opener, which will cut into my normal musky opener hours. The good thing is we fish walleyes on awesome musky water.
I have traditionally had three BIG fishing trips in May. The Northern Walleye opener with family and friends. The May 15th border lake musky opener and the Memorial Day Musky opener. With this new rule my family life gets easier as I don’t have to lobby for an all day musky trip on Memorial day weekend, like I have in the past. It’s just another weekend, in fact one better served by avoiding the lakes and all the not to smart people that come out of the wood work on that weekend.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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In lakes with natural reproduction, this could have a dramatic effect on successful spawning.
Pre-spawn fish are much easier to catch than post-spawn. Large females can drop eggs prematurely if exposed to stressful situations, it even happens when capturing fish for hatchery purposes. Fish will dump eggs just from being handled by DNR before they can gather them.
Pre-spawn muskies can be very aggressive, as Bob Strand found on Leech. He used to get them to swim towards the boat by splashing the water with a paddle.
We aren't talking about bass, pike or walleye which are much more numerous, and by the way are also protected during spawning in MN and Canada, and I'm assuming WI?
I for the life of me can't understand why any fishermen would question the relevance of protecting fish during the spawn.
Seriously, what doesn't make sense about that?
John Skarie |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | john skarie - 1/3/2008 3:43 PM
Pre-spawn fish are much easier to catch than post-spawn.
John Skarie
isn't that speculation john? ... where do you fish pre-spawn? ... what kind of numbers do you catch then vs. otherwise, what baits or tactics ... or do they just charge the boat?
there are always some incedental big fish caught here early by walleye anglers but it's not like they are trying to devour anything and i've been doing this long enough to have an opposite experience when confronted with muskies in spawning mode and its correspondind cold temperatures ...
does anyone else find it as easy as john to catch fish in pre-spawn conditions? ... and by this i mean casting and retreiving which will be the case ... not snagging or spearing them on the banks where they're laying ... |
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Posts: 170
| Hey Sled...how ya doing?
I must say that John Skarie is as close to my thoughts as possible on this whole mess. Not to say "how" it came about...that's the part that really reaks!!
Why disrupt the spawing? WI continues to strive for "positives" when it comes to muskies, and now this? |
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| john skarie - 1/3/2008 3:43 PM
In lakes with natural reproduction, this could have a dramatic effect on successful spawning.
Pre-spawn fish are much easier to catch than post-spawn. Large females can drop eggs prematurely if exposed to stressful situations, it even happens when capturing fish for hatchery purposes. Fish will dump eggs just from being handled by DNR before they can gather them.
Pre-spawn muskies can be very aggressive, as Bob Strand found on Leech. He used to get them to swim towards the boat by splashing the water with a paddle.
We aren't talking about bass, pike or walleye which are much more numerous, and by the way are also protected during spawning in MN and Canada, and I'm assuming WI?
I for the life of me can't understand why any fishermen would question the relevance of protecting fish during the spawn.
Seriously, what doesn't make sense about that?
John Skarie
John I presume you know a lot more about this than I do. After reading that I have a few questions:
- You say the effect on spawning could be "dramatic". Do you expect that a significant number of pre-spawn females will be caught during this time? Significant enough for the effects to be dramatic?
- Has anyone determined whether its both the males and females that are agressive during this time, or is it just the males?
- What percentage of the time can we expect to encounter pre-spawn conditions during the time period in question?
- What about DURING the spawn? Are the females really catchable, or are they driven by other biological processes that would prevent them from chasing and eating a lure?
Obviously, catching a female a day before she's ready to drop her eggs isn't going to do her any good, but how likely is that particular scenario? Will enough people be out there that it REALLY matters?
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Location: minocqua, wi. | pre-spawn and overly agressive just haven't been something i would put together ... i'd love to learn otherwise if it's true ... this is the first time i've heard of such a situation truly.
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | So much of this debate hinges on when the fish spawn. Many years that process is in play by the time the regular fishing season opens in the North. In my experience, many more times than not by the first Saturday in May the fish are in the middle of or past that point. By the second Saturday, most of the lakes I fish the spawn is about done. Now if we have ice the first week May, that can be different, but usually the water warms very quickly then, and the process accelerates. Personally, I liked the idea of the Muskies spawning unmolested, but have no real basis for that emotional response.
My question was if there will be any significant biological impact on the overall population. I bet there are some creel numbers out there as to catch rates, etc from the past. I'm hoping that we can get an answer from one of the many biologists that visit here. I'd be happy to take the answer via emial or PM, and post it with total anonymity.
[email protected]
And don't get me wrong, especially Mike, I agree that the change in regulations is wrong---- not necessarily because of the science (don't know enough about it)-----but because of the method it was acquired. The system is flawed.
That said, if the system works that way, in a Democracy one can expect folks will use the system to get what they want. I won't hold anyone in Eagle River responsible except the lawmaker and the guy who signed that legislation. The rest of the blame goes right to each and every one of us Wisconsin voters for accepting this system in the first place. Think we are in the majority complaining about it?
It's ironic, so many folks on one hand are openly critical of the DNR and encourage all sorts of oversight including that of total laymen when it suits them (remember the big debate last year and the year before?), and then cry foul when that very exercise is successful and results in an action that is not what they would expect or desire.
Ahhh, the old 'be careful what you wish for' adage again... |
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Posts: 170
| Good questions to John...
I guess my thought process that I'm stuck on, is sure, there probably is not "much" data to support it, but wouldn't common sense dictate that if a muskie (male or female) chases down a bait...or in spring, just coils up and eats and or lazily inhales the bait, that this would put "some type" of stress on the fish during the fight at a very critical time? I would think yes... How about one that eats, and gets off? Stress??? I'd think so. Now how about the one that get's caught...lifting for pictures with eggs ready (or almost) ready to drop?? Not good. The list of "what ifs' could go on for quite a while...probably from both sides, but I would rather error on the side of caution...it's only a few extra weeks...let the girls do thier thing! |
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| depends on how "pre" you are talking though really...look at indiana/illinois/iowa waters where there is no closed season and you can get into some good action on feb/march and even april Pre Spawn fish...now the days before leading up to the actual spawn and into the spawn good luck getting females to eat...you can get some males to eat but mostly they are the 28-36 variety...seems to me we are wasting quite a bit of talk over this subject, it is what it is, and unless it gets changed we can't really do anything can we? to me I don't see this new C&R season as all that big of a deal...as stated, we have the southern waters that open 1st saturday in May and typically are going to be better fishing than northern C&R waters. I just don't see a mass exodus to north of highway 10 to go look for pre spawn or in most cases I would imagine spawning fish which are very hard to catch. For those living up there will they go out and try to catch muskies, probably some, but muskies aren't exactly easy to catch pre spawn, during the spawn or the days shortly there after....seems like a waste of time to bicker over it at this point....imo. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | there should be plenty of numbers available from the dnr project lakes in saynor that are open regardless ... any way of having their numbers published steve? they are in a hand-written book on-site and i've seen them but never looked or tallied anything in relationship to this statement of more aggressive fish. |
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Posts: 444
| I still dont see the harm, yes it was done in an incorrect manner but that's how it works in this country. I beleive it wont have an ill effect on the overall muskie population, look at salmon and trout, when do you fish for them? When there in the river, Why are they in the river? to spawn. Each year i see more salmon/trout fisherman and see more trout and salmon each year. Also the DNR doesnt set the seasons for a state, the state legislature does.... |
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Posts: 999
| Heck if we want to keep the tourism up year around in the northwoods why dont we keep the walleye and northern pike season open year around, that outta bring up a few fisherman during the closed season!
Mr Musky |
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The walleye 'season' up here doesn't do much for tourism anyway. Who's going to Vacation in Rhinelander to fish walleyes with a limit of 1 over and 1 UNDER 14" or similar? That's a large part of the problem; muskie angling is growing in popularity, while not near as many folks fish up here for 'eyes. There is some pretty good Pike fishing to be had, but that's not a big tourism draw either. Plus, much of the 'closed' season takes place when safe ice is history and open water not yet a reality. Also, I bet if the season was extended, the daily bag would fall even more. |
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Posts: 999
| I agree with you totally Steve! I guess what bothers me so much about this early season is that yeah everybody is like well big deal the fish will be inactive, probably wont bite but we'll get the boat all ready to go and whatnot until they do become active. Well for me I look at the Musky opener the same as the Gun or Bow opener! The anticipation the getting ready the big Memorial day 3 day weekend. You know some lake is going to be hot! The muskys haven't seen a bait all year, the past few years they've been active on the opener! To me their taking the tradition out of it. Those musky's that are dumb on opening day wont be so dumb anymore because their going to have seen so many baits before they decide their up to speed enough to feed. Whether that may be the first Sat in May, the second week, third week who knows..... It just doesn't seem right. I hate change especially this kind of B.S. change because of a politician.
Mr Musky |
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | For a whole bunch of years opener was opener. The later opener really is a fairly recent deal. Anyone remember when it went into effect? Hardly anyone even mentioned the C&R Bass season.... |
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Posts: 999
| The Memorial Day weekend (Sat) opener for the northern zone has been in effect for at least the past 15 years. As far as I can remember. I dont think that bass season was mentioned because that was recently changed to what a June 14th opener or something? It use to be the first Sat in May just like walleye/pike. What was the date on that change?
Mr Musky |
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Posts: 999
| As long as we are on the subject of season date changes Steve, what is going on with the proposal to keep the musky season open until 12/30 in the southern zone? Why isnt' there more talk about this on the boards? I think we should support a longer season with extra days at the end then at the beginning. How could this have any negative effect at all on muskys?
Mr Musky |
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Posts: 285
Location: NE Wisconsin | MN
1) Late Opener
2)High Size Limit
3)One Line Limit
4)History of Limited Sucker Fishing
5)DNR sets Regs
6) Numerous 50+ inch fish caught annually
Ontario
1)Late Opener
2)High Size Limits
3)One Line Limit
4)History of Limited Sucker Fishing
5)Ministry sets Regs
6)Numerous 50+inch fish caught annually
WI
1) Early Opener (2009)
2)Low Size Limits
3)3 Lines per Angler
4)History of Extensive Sucker Fishing
5)Bureau of Tourism sets Regs
6)Comparatively few 50+ inch caught annually
Coincidence??? I Think Not!!! 
But apparently many here like the regs like this?????? |
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