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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | mskyhntr - 12/5/2007 1:50 PM
at this TIME!
Those are definitely the keys words. That's if he wants to try and find a Yammy to put on it and spend the extra cash.
Remember, he stated he plans on doing SOME trolling. I think it comes down to preference. Try the Merc out, see what you think, if you don't like, look else where. Plain and simple. I think it will suit you just fine for what your looking for. I trolled with a 115 Mercury 4stroke and it performed wonderfully for me. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | IF the dealer or person involved is willing to trade out a new Yammy for the Merc or for that matter a new Merc with the pwoer steering, then he can make the decision. As to other companies designing their own power tiller steering, that may be true, but it won't be the EngineSteer system; Honda doesn't have one on the docket, and I don't see any press releases from Bombardier yet. Suzuki is sticking with the hydraulic assist they have had for some time. Looks like Merc will have the best for awhile, at least. I can't imagine how one would improve on the EngineSteer, but I suppose it could be done.
No one should have 'trouble' using the Merc 90 HP 4 stroke either, but the power steering is pretty sweet.
You said it is YAMMY PERIOD. I disagree, so do a couple other folks.
And, I might mention to add to what you said, sure, no smartcraft or PS, and also....NO YAMAHA...unless he buys one. Door's open. |
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Location: Wisconsin | Thanks for all the info guys, I did not mean to start an argument off any kind.
The boat is a 2006 Ranger 618T with a 90 Merc. stroke, salt water edition. It is a new boat left over and the dealer will not switch motors. For the record I have a 115 Merc on my current boat which I have had for 16 years and have had very little problems with, ( uses lots of gas ). My brother has had a 60 hp Yamaha for a few years now and really likes it. I have used this boat several times for trolling and really like the way the tiller controls are set up. The boat I buy I plan on keeping for many years and do not want to be disappointed.
Everybody has some very good points, and it seems like they are both good motors, maybe just some personnel preferences on the controls. I am still leaning towards the Yamaha.
Thanks,
Tom P. |
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| Tom P - 12/4/2007 6:06 PM
I am looking at buying a new boat and was planning on getting a Yamaha 4 stroke on it. Found a Ranger I like but it has a Merc. 4 stroke on it. This is a 90 hp. tiller and I do plan on doing some trolling, so the question is this motor as good as the Yamaha as far as being smooth and quiet and dependable or should I stick to the Yamaha?
Thanks,
Tom P.
Yes, the Merc is as good, and better in some ways, than the Yamaha. It will be as smooth, and as quiet. Bigger displacement, higher output Alternator, and the ECM which controls the motor is second to none. The tiller handle debate is a subjective one. Obviously, you have had a Merc Tiller handle, and have been satified with it. They all make pretty reliable motors now.
FYI, you can get the SmarCraft Speedo for under $400. You don't have to have both speedo and tach to get the troll down option.
As for the Enginesteer system, the Patent that Mercury now holds, will prevent anyone from producing a system like it. Anyone wanting to design a new hydraulic system for tillers will have to come up with a different approach. I doubt BRP, or Yamaha will spend the bucks to do that for such a small market. So, it would have to be an individual that would design and develop it, much like Tim Mertens did. |
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Posts: 95
Location: LOTW every chance I get | I don't buy the argument that power steering is only useful for bigger outboards. It is simply required to allow the use of bigger tillers. I have never fished from anything other than a tiller, and I have spent more than my fair share of thime on the water. I presently run a 17' Lund with a 50 Merc 2 stroke. I can tell you that when your doing a 15 mile run across LOTW with a heavy crosswind (which is pretty much always it seems) having power steering would be pretty sweet, and save a lot of energy for the reason I am out there, which is to fish.
Dave |
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| Ive ran both and the Yamaha 4 stroke is (IMO) the best motor on the market. IMO reputation is everything and as far as Im concerned Yamaha will always have that over Mercury (somebody even said that some mercs may have yamaha power heads. that says it all) Yamahas customer service in my experience has been so much better (to me at least) than mercs. One of my clients this year was a guide from Alaska. he said they run a few different kinds of motors at the resort, but when it gets really,really cold they only use the yamahas. From what he said they have never had a problem with reliability.
Have I had problems with my yamaha 4 strokes? Definitely! I spend over 250 days a year on the water and troll for months at a time.I have a T8 kicker but dont even bother using it for trolling. I had a problem this year with the fuel system on my 03 115. Motor wasnt under warranty and even if it was the warranty doesnt cover the fuel system (neither does mercs) yamaha replaced the entire fuel system free of charge when it was determined that there MAY have been a problem with some of the injectors.No arm twisting was involved..I just gave him the facts and he made the right decision..
As for the power steering,Its unneccasary on the 90 (IMO).. Regardless of who owns the rights to what, its still gonna cost around 2 grand for the upgrade. IMO whats going to happen in the near future is that Yamaha will design there own steering system that will surpass that of which is already on the market.Not to mention they will make it more cost effective.
Is the merc 4 stroke a good motor? Yep. I have a buddy who has a newer 115 4 stroke merc and loves it. When we fish together we bicker about everything BUT whos got the best motor. Its never come up once. We're both just happy that our motors are running well and thats that.
No matter what 4 stroke motor you buy, if you dont let it warm up before running hard, change the oil regularly or run some sort of fuel stabilizer/injector cleaner year round your going to have problems down the road. |
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| Shep,
Im not sure that the market is as small as you think..I could be wrong though. |
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Posts: 814
| Exactly Ben I just can't see ranger not being able to put a 150 yammy tiller on a 620 because of no power steering,never happen imo. And well CS that's another issue that's not worth discussing We all know who has inferior CS. |
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| I agree.
Personally, Ive seen a boom in the tiller market lately, especialy the 18' and larger models. More people have them so more and more companies are manufacturing them. not to mention the salt water market. I have no doubt that we will see a PS system from yamaha in the near future. |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | mskyhntr - 12/6/2007 9:47 AM
Exactly Ben I just can't see ranger not being able to put a 150 yammy tiller on a 620 because of no power steering,never happen imo. CS.
The highest rated tiller on any boat is a 115hp without the assist of a power steering. Don't quote me on this, but I have never seen any tiller without the steering system that has a larger motor than a 115. I've seen A LOT of them! To be honest, it might even be a law that the steering system is the only way possible for such higher hp. I know the Coast Guard approves those things and I know I've seen a lot of tillers, but nothing over 115hp without the assist of the power steering.
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Here you go mskyhntr,
Read and weep. A 620 rated for a 150 w/Hyd. steering. I can almost bet you it's a law!
http://www.rangerboats.com/flash/specification.cfm?mid=5229&series=...
Here is Warrior's website. There also highly known for big tillers. This is there 20footer. It's rated for a 115, however, with the assist of the hydraulic steering, you can put a 200hp on it.
http://www.warrior-boats.com/series_bt/v2090_bt_eagle_tournament.ht...
One more to the list. Lund, brand new last year. The Lund 2010 Pro Guide. The boat Mr. Ron Seelhoff himself ran before anyone else had the boat. Thee proto-type. This boat again, rated for a 115hp, but can handle a 175 with hydraulic steering. Right on the link below.
http://www.lundboats.com/2010proguide_2008.html
Need I say more? Or should I say, anymore examples?
Edited by Merckid 12/6/2007 12:22 PM
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| TJ you miss understood me...what I meant was I find it hard to believe that yamaha or ranger won't't have something ready to go so guys could order a 620 or any other big tiller with their own hydraulic steering so it could be ordered with a yamaha or any other outboard other than a merc Business would definetly suffer IMO and these company won't let that happen. Do you Know how much business would be lost if big tillers that required hyd steering could only be mercs on the back? I can see it now 
Edited by mskyhntr 12/6/2007 12:25 PM
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | That makes sense. I honestly thought you were trying to say something else.
Take a look at what Warrior has already done for there rigs. I forgot about this setup. This will allow for any motor to be put on.
http://www.warrior-boats.com/video/video_ads_07/pro_tiller.html
They would lose a little business, however, if a guy wants a big tiller bad enough, they would change. Otherwise they would just figure something else out. But I agree, they would lose business. However, I think like Shep mentioned. I don't see that much of a market for these big tillers. There is some, but not like a 17-18 foot rig. The money for them and size of the boat is just out of range for many. But I have a hard time thinking other companies are going to try and build there own power assist steering. The money that would cost would probably be more than if they would just buy it from Mercury. Plus, marinas can rig these boats with 115, unless a customer wants something bigger, then I would imagine a marina would just place an order to Mercury. Very few rigs come from the factory with the power steering on them. Most of that work is done by a marina because they have a particular customer wanting that. That or they have to change out motors. That I learned first hand from working with one of the largest Ranger dealers in the country.
Edited by Merckid 12/6/2007 1:58 PM
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| My Ranger 620T is rated for a 125 without the power steering.
125s are no longer made and a 150 would be too much without the power steering. why you only see 115s that arent equipped with the power steering |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | How old is your Ranger? Couple different things, they've obviously changed the rating on a 620. I'll bet your hull changed somehow, or you got a US Coast Guard approval to put a bigger motor on it. But the fact of the matter is, there is not a 20footer on the market that can put a motor that is bigger than a 115 without putting the power steering on it now. Maybe five or ten years ago, but not now. |
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| Hey Merckid
mskyhntr is Mike Leombruni
NOT John Bette.
Get your musky hunters straight KID. |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | My bad, they looked the same.
Oh, it's Mr. Merckid, not KID.
Edited by Merckid 12/6/2007 2:03 PM
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| Ben K, you are right, in your opinion. But you make it sound as though Yamaha will cover anything, forever. Simply not the case. Certain circumstances, they will cover out of warranty. But so has Merc. And BRP, And Suzuki, and....
Reputation is important, but I tend to look at it as perception instead. Perception was that Yamaha builds a more reliable motor. Reality probably is that they have about the same rate of problems as all the brands. But no matter. JD Powers award the past two years to Merc for the Opti. Who ever saw that coming 6 years ago?! When was the last JD powers award for Yamaha? That is a Customer Satisfaction based award. Seems the tide has turned? Or is it just perception that Opti owners are more satfied than Yamaha owners?
You say that when your Alaska guide uses the Yamaha's when it got really cold. Must have older carbed motors then, because Merc's midrange have been EFI for quite a few years before Yamaha's were. No way a carbed Yammy starts and runs as good as an EFI motor in the cold. The fact that Merc used Yamaha powerheads on the 75-115 4-stroke does not say it all. It was an economic agreement is all. The past 2 years, Merc has there very own design, and it is in many ways, a superior motor. Heck, Yamah didn't even EFI their 115 until at least 5 years after Merc did.
As for Yamaha coming outwith a power assist for the bigger tillers? Perhaps. But again, Patent Laws will require them design something different from the Merten design. So, I doubt that Yamaha themselves will develop it for the relatively small market. As I said, if another system is made available, it will be by a Tim Merten type. My guess is also that if Ranger can't get the Enginesteer to put on Yamaha's at the factory, then they will go to a Warrior like system. Again. small market, and they aren't going to stick a lot of developmental money in to this. But, that is assuming Ranger, or whoever, won't be able to buy these for non Merc applications.
Also, I am not sure the Warrior assist system is actually CG approved. |
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| bn how dare you.....i think you are the one who is wrong....merckid knows everything! |
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| I can almost bet you it's a law!
i'll take that bet... 
it's not a law. read the Coast Guard regs and you'll see that they are actually "guidelines", although your insurance company would probably go along with them if there was a claim issue, and most dealer/riggers would probably be hesitant to rig a boat beyond the regs due to potential liability issues in the event of an accident. a civil court judge might do so as well if there were a personal claim filed against the operator for negligence.
tiller steering systems such as on the Warrior boats or brand-specific hydraulics such as Mercury's are good examples of "bending" the definitions as described in Coast Guard regs to enable tiller-rigged boats to be considered "remote steer" and therefore eligible for the higher hp motors on the boat's rating card.
as consumers we all benefit from this kind of innovation and outside-the-box thinking.
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Posts: 144
Location: Green Bay, WI | Has anyone seen a ransom note for this thread? hehe... |
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Posts: 7039
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Have we actually answered THIS question?
"I am looking at buying a new boat and was planning on getting a Yamaha 4 stroke on it. Found a Ranger I like but it has a Merc. 4 stroke on it. This is a 90 hp. tiller and I do plan on doing some trolling, so the question is this motor as good as the Yamaha as far as being smooth and quiet and dependable or should I stick to the Yamaha?
Thanks,
Tom P." |
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| And the reason, Merckid, why theres no tillers rated for 125s is because they dont make 125s anymore..Kinda stupid to rate a new 620T with a motor size thats not even manufactured. My 620 is a 2003. My buddy has a 04 or 05 that is also rated for a 125 without the PS.
Its hard to say whats what until you actually run a 620 with a 115 that doesnt have PS. I can run it fine with the tension bar loose in 0-2 foot waves.After that I have to tighten it up a little bit. If I were to get the PS installed on my current motor it would pretty much only benefit me while Im trolling. I spend so little time actually plained out. Maybe 10-20 minutes total in a 12 hour day.
"No way a carbed Yammy starts and runs as good as an EFI motor in the cold"
Whats your basis for that, Shep? Ive ran both motors and I wouldnt run a merc if someone gave me one for free. My yamahas have always started within a split second no matter what the temp was. Sit at the boat launch for a half hour and see who has problems starting there motors. It will never be a yamaha. Or call 20 outboard mechanics (not dealers) across the mid west and ask what 4 stroke motor they work on least. I did that before I bought my boat this year.yamaha was the second least worked on motor (Honda was first) I honestly didnt ask what motor they work on most. I asked what motor they would get if buying new and mercury wasnt mentioned. E tech was at the top with honda and yamaha. although this in know way says anything for ceartain, it does say a lot. Sometimes its not who does it first, but who does it best. |
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| Amen Brotha! |
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| Slamr, I believe I answerred the original question.
Ben K, you say.
"I wouldnt run a merc if someone gave me one for free."
First of all, that is an unlikely situation, that you could get a Merc for free. But, just for the sake of arguement. You'd spend $7K+ on a Yamaha, rather than run a Merc that cost you nothing? Really? You must be pretty well off. I get that you prefer Yamaha to Merc, but c'mon.
I almost had Evinrudes on my new boat last year. Until the memo deal fell through, and I was going to actually have to pay for them up front. If I'm going to pay for a motor, it'll be a Merc. If I get one on a memo deal, well, guess what? That motor would be on my boat. I'm not stupid. I do not like Toyota trucks. I prefer Fords, But if someone offered me a Toyota for free? I'd be pulling my boat with it, and smiling all the way!
You want facts from me, yet you provide hearsay. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Your statement that more Mercs are worked on than Yamaha's means nothing, because there are many more Mercs out there than Yamahas. Stands to reason. I've seen plenty of Yamah's that woudn't start. And Evinrudes, and Chryslers, and Johnson, and even a Honda, over the years. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the problems were caused by neglect and improper maintenance, and not brand defect. My basis is experience of 30+ years as a boat and motor owner. What's yours?
Look, as I have stated many times on this board. They all make good motors today. Pick the one you like, with the features you like, at the price you like, and I'll say congrats on your new motor. But say silly things like you wouldn't run one if it was given to you free, well, then your arguement is falling on deaf ears.
Edited by Shep 12/7/2007 9:31 AM
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| Im not exactly well off but I wouldnt take a mercury for free if I had to run it..Why? because if I was in the position to get a mercury for free I could more than likely get a yamaha for free as well..Anyone would take anything of value,but if I actually have to promote the product its not worth it.
Dude,Im not even 30 yrs old but cant how many boats Ive owned or different kinds of motors. I totaly agree with your last statement though.
All I said was thats what the 20 mechanics I talked to said. Definitely more mercs on the water and thats probably the reason why they were able to bounce back after all the recalls and power head problems.
Ive ran both motors and stated my preferences..Hardly hear say.. |
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| I am trying to change the oil on my yamaha 115 4 stroke and need to make sure i pull the right plug on the pan. can anyone offer a few tips so I can make sure I have the right one . Is it the one directly under the dip stick
Thanks spec and red |
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Posts: 199
Location: Sandusky, OH | I would just interject that I've read that Enginsteer is retaining the right to sell the non-powered, hydralic steering system for tillers, the Titan system. This system gives you the same ability to not fight your tiller handle in foul weather with only a slight increase in pressure required to turn the tiller. My impression is that this system was specifically designed for 60-90 horse tillers where the increased control is desired but the powered system is overkill. I know its available on Yamahas currently, and probably other motors soon.
Eric
PS. Didn't bass and walleye boat magazine to a 90 Horse shootout a couple years ago. Thought the John-zuki did pretty well. Don't remember anything about the Yamaha, but didn't the Merc 90 have pretty low marks for fuel economy?
Edited by bluegill 1/7/2008 8:55 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If it was a couple years ago, the Merc 90 WAS a Yamaha, I bet. |
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Posts: 199
Location: Sandusky, OH | It was in 04 or 05, so whenever the Brunswick/Yamaha relationship ended because of the anti-dumping suit would determine which head it was. I glanced at a summary on walleyecentral, and they didn't have a Yamaha in the test. The John-zuki took top honors, followed by the Etec. The Mercury 90 had the best top end, but was the loudest, slowest out of the hole, and had the worst fuel economy tested (not sure if it was EFI or carbed). They also tested the Honda (quietest) and the Tohatsu (best fuel economy, but I don't understand why they tested it but not a Yamaha). The Yamaha is a glaring ommission; wonder if it is due to the Mercury sponsorship of the magazine. Anyway, the 90 Johnson-Suzuki was the overall best finisher in all catagories measured.
More data for TomP to assimilate.
Eric
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