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| I consider trolling a constant movement to keep a bait active. Anyone else? If a warden was to consider using a trolling motor to move around a lake with LIVE bait out, trolling.... If your live bait doesn't swim, better put a live one on!
All the fish I see caught as classified "flatline trolling" I do not consider a catch, I just don't. That takes so less effort than the 10,000 casts! Yes Mr. Worrall I will be back! less aggressive of course, but I have a mind set on issues such as trolling, or spearing..and hopefullly you can learn from me and I will learn from you. That's all I have to say, thanks. Trolling is trolling, it isn't fishing. Spearing is spearing, it isn't fishing? Catch my drift? |
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| But, I guess I got off subject..I think a sucker is less effective when "dragging" it, rather then letting it swim out on its own on the rig. As slow as I've reeled one in before I noticed the sucker just LOOKS less effective, and always was. I've had best action on suckers letting them do their own thing, and moving them 10 feet every minute just seems to take the liveliness out of them. So no, I do not think that dragging suckers should be considered trolling.
Aside from that, the sucker bite is on people! We had 3 boats out on a lake less than 200 acres this past weekend, with incredible action and 6 or 7 fish boated maybe (I don't remember it all, there was high lifes involved) and I know we lost 6 or so more. I lost one of the biggest fish I've ever had on too...it just goes to show, the sucker bite IS ON! A majority of our fish caught and lost as well, were all on XL suckers. Watching a 30lb fish inhale a sucker is amazing, I'll tell ya that much! So...
Drag em slow and keep castin,
Andy |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | He's not trying to prove his point, I believe Mr. Worrall is trying to explain what the law states. I also believe so was Brad, Norm Wild, and Shep. They all stated the very same thing. I know Norm Wild goes through this discussion with people every year, and I know he's talked to the wardens a lot. He spends a lot of time sucker fishing, probably the most time of anyone I know. I do not believe he has been fined for what he is saying is position fishing. Now, I understand some wardens may see the law a different way. However, I think all the guys I stated above, were simply trying to state how the law should be interpreted. Just my thought.
Edited by Merckid 10/23/2007 10:34 PM
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| Andy - 10/23/2007 10:12 PM
All the fish I see caught as classified "flatline trolling" I do not consider a catch, I just don't. That takes so less effort than the 10,000 casts!
And plopping a sucker over the side of the boat takes more effort? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Andy,
If you are not moving much, and your line is mainly vertical, you by WI law are not trolling; you are position fishing. Trolling, as far as what a warden interprets WI Law, is what it is according to that warden, not me or you. O
Of COURSE trolling is fishing, and takes a tremendous amount of skill and knowledge to do very well. I follow the PWT and FLW for WalleyeFIRST, and see some of the best out there; it isn't as simple as one may think. Ask The Extreme One, or Shep, or any of the others here who have learned the technique. If one isn't fond of a technique, that is fine, but that doesn't make that technique less skill oriented.
Spearing has nothing to do with this issue.
Chuck, if you get a citation, sounds like yours might just be a 'test case' to clarify this murky and IMHO silly law.
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| Got nabbed for it 2 weekends, and this was moving extremeley slowly with the boober rod behind the boat, it took as three hours to cover about 300-400 yards on the water because there was no wind. This past weekend the the wardens were out there again, even came out on the water this time instead of waiting at the launch for us. We were runninng 4 sucker rods straight down with 1.5 ounces of weight. Checked us for everything, even tryed to accuse us of trolling a black and orange regular bull dawg because he saw us from shore pulling up big black baits, we were using XL suckers. If he couldnt tell what we were using, why did he try to say are lines were not vertical in the water? He even said that he rigged the suckers up after seeing him on the shore. He even measured the length of the boat because we didnt have the throwable out, the boat measures out according to him at 15'-6 and i know that. He even tryed to accuse me a trolling a bucktail i had on the casting rod i was using because the bucktail was still a little wet but the line was completely dry because it hadnt been in the water for 30 minutes at least because we had just caught three fish. Sorry for the rant but we had to argue with the one warden for over a 30 minutes before he figured out that we werent doing anything wrong. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, Musky Central, USA | Steve, THIS BLEW MY MIND... about an hour after I caught my fat 45" pig today, we were wind drifted down the shore to a point where some old guy was casting off his dock while leaving a bobber out. The wind was decent, but we still used the trolling motor to keep the boat perpendicular to shore. The old man says "HEY WHEN WAS TROLLING ALLOWED ON THIS LAKE"...all our captain could say was "we are drifiting". It's a touchy subject I guess! If we can do it with slip bobbers for walleyes in the srping, why can't we do it with suckers for musky now? I had a laugh, thinking back to this post. I've a lot to learn I spose:) To our surprise the old man left to go up to his house..while his rod with the bobber was still out on his dock and in the water. All we could do was laugh!
to go a lil off subject, as I like to do:
A lot of the wardens up here are...explitive deleted...sorry to say it! I believe in their jobs, but I came to this conclusion after a couple of underage drinking tickets handed out a couple of years ago...They were more concerned about us at the campsite we stayed at, rather than the jet-ski pullin a tuber without a second person watchin the tuber...get this... AFTER SUNSET...and on a few other occassions they seemed more worried about issuing "other tickets" rather than checking up on the people that were fishing or flying around a tiny lake with boats that weren't even registered.
I'm glad I'm too old for underage drinking tickets, I guess! It is SUCH a toucy subject, I guess it just depends on what DNR guy you encounter.
Edited by Andy 10/24/2007 9:46 PM
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Location: Rhinelander. | I was told it makes no difference if your line is vertical or not. If you do more then just reposition your boat you are trolling. I know that I drag one one also when casting and ever so often hit the electric to move a small a distance. I'm carefull not to move far but I think even that is pushing the law. You need to be caught when the warden is in a good mood.
Pfeiff |
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| "..... if we can do it with slip bobbers for walleyes in the spring, why can't we do it with suckers for musky now? ....."
You can't do it with a slip bobber for walleyes in the spring. That's just as illegal as doing it while musky fishing in the fall.
There are always those who think they are 'above the law' simply because they don't agree with a certain regulation, don't see the harm in it, or have trouble respecting law and authority. See the several examples of those type of people on this thread alone for proof.
The trolling regulation whether viewed as good, bad or otherwise is there to be followed. Anyone breaking it is a violator and should be ticketed, plain and simple. There are those who are good stewards of the resource and follow the regulations irregardless of their personal feelings, and those who aren't and take advantage at every possible opportunity.
You don't have to agree with the regulation, you just have to follow it.
1-800-TIP-WDNR
Edited by esoxcpr 10/24/2007 10:55 PM
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Location: Contrarian Island | i was thinking the same thing Chuck... I wonder if we looked up your record on the net if you have any speeding tickets or other violations EsoxCPR!!?? 
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Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:51 AM
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Actually every law is up to interpretation, but the officer, and the judge.
That's why laws are challenged all the time in court.
I thought this discussion was about the law, and what is legal, not about who breaks what laws.
We saw a boat fishing two lines last weekend here in MN. Two suckers and out, and two guys casting. After being told by a couple of other fishermen that it was illegal, they kept on doing it. We called TIP, don't know if they actually got a ticket or not.
Sure I've broken laws in my life, but you bet I'm going to turn guys like that in, especially after given the chance to quit doing it after others told them it was illegal, and let them know we saw them doing it.
Call it hypcritical, but everybody has certain convictions or whatever reasons, and breaking some laws bears more weight than others in everyones mind.$
JS |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Thanks, John, for another 'point on' post.
Esoxcpr didn't SAY he did or didn't have a speeding ticket, etc, did he?? He made the same point I did, it's law and if you decide to not follow the law (in the eyes of THAT warden at THAT moment) and do so with your eyes wide open knowing what you are doing can be deemed illegal, you deserve to get a ticket. A speeding ticket or violation like that isn't criminal, though, so let's keep context in mind, please. That being said, to take his point a bit further; if you are doing so to challenge and perhaps change a stupid law, I'd be with you all the way.
Is it winter already?
The law, IMHO, is ridiculous. I don't have the time or money to challenge it, though. If someone else does, GREAT! I'd like to see trolling allowed up here, personally. |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | I'm glad I live where trolling is allowed. Maybe this is a stupid question. But is there a "reason" given as to why they make it legal to row troll, but being propelled by an electric motor while dragging a lure or sucker is made illegal? Seems as though trolling with an outboard engine is the kind of trolling they want to be illegal. So why not word the regulations that way rather than have the "positioning" grey area. "Trolling is permitted by row trolling or with an electric motor only." No more grey area and trolling is still pretty much not happening. Or they could make it really easy and just legalize trolling.
Like I said though, I'm glad I live where I can go out and troll if I want!
Aaron |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Straight answer?
Tradition. |
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Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Not to throw a wrench in the discussion, but interpretation can make you or break you. I spoke at length with an area warden one day about this very subject. He agreed with me that under the “position fishing rule” you could use your electric trolling motor momentarily while dragging suckers with or without bobbers. He did caution however that amongst the wardens at an annual meeting much debate takes place around this very subject. If fact he said heated arguments break out between wardens on how to interoperate this rule. Unfortunately there are those who abuse it and this opens up every musky fisherman to scrutiny.
In a conversation with a fellow musky hunter and buddy today, he made mention of a possible solution to this problem. Allow trolling with 2 lines per angler between September 1 thru end of the season. You would no longer have the high volume of water traffic to make trolling an issue, casters would have all summer to enjoy the lakes in peace and quiet without dodging plainer boards, and in the fall you could cast and drag a sucker! Food for thought?
Several years ago I tried to change the wording of the “Position fishing” rule to be a bit more clear in its interpretation. I even had the help of a state senator and his staff to help with the re-write. Boy did that turn into a giant cluster! The fascinating thing was gathering suggestions from fellow musky fishermen. Would you believe that of the 50 or so suggestions I received, each one was different! I gave up after becoming very frustrated.
Ed
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Ed,
I'm with you. but look what happensd when something close to your suggestion is put out there...
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=37...
Like I said, Lord help anyone trying to mess with 'tradition' here, even when it makes some sense to some. |
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| Reminds me of our duck hunting opener here in MN. Tradition had it start on saturday at noon of all things. They had no biological or scientific data that said that we needed to open at noon, just tradition. Make a guy wonder why we are paying biologists if we are going base things on tradition. Now we open at 9 am, just in time for bloodies and beer and the blind. |
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Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:52 AM
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| The bobber has nothing to do with it being illegal. What the line is doing above the water means nothing. The rule states " vertical where the line enters the water" as long as the line is vertical from the bobber to the sucker, this is vertical. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | Call me crazy, but think of this. I mostly fish Polk County lakes where motor trolling is permitted and you are allowed 3 lines (heavy rec/fishing traffic lakes, too). What would the reasoning be to only allow one line or not allow motor trolling on some lakes? The reason for the gray area in both Minnesota and Wisconsin, I believe, is because of the potential it has to earn the states some money in the form of citations (IMO)
Would anyone be against a $2 raise in the price of a fishing license? It would give the DNR those additional funds and let everyone do what they want to do instead of having to tip-toe around the law while trying to do something positive that they enjoy. That's my 2 cents. |
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Location: north central wisconsin | Ed, that is a much better idea and not even in the same zip code as the other proposal on the link above. I would whole heartedly agree with your proposal and be willing to help you pursue such if you were going to, even though I feel it probably would not pass due to tradition as Steve mentioned. The problem with the mentioned proposal, is the attempt to eliminate or greatly curb the use of live bait period, by reducing our line allowance to one. Again, your friends idea holds alot of merit and they might just have alot of people who agree with them. I think it would allow the people who hold the livebait fishing technique dear(and the people we refer to here) the chance to fish the way they always have, while allowing the trollers their chance too. It would have to be looked at under lake size discretion(still not sure I want dudes rocking past me with 3 planer boards behind them on my little 120 acre potholes...), but good stuff nonetheless!
Edited by Reef Hawg 10/25/2007 4:47 PM
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | Now, if what former warden says is right, which I believe is. Then interpretation is the wrong word. If the rule says "vertical where the line enters the water", then I don't know how much more clearer one can be? That's pretty clear to me. However, with that being said. I was out this weekend and I was able to turn my trolling motor on and off to help maintain a position but with a vertical line pretty easily.
However, if your fishing with a bobber and that line isn't vertical where the line and the bobber meets the water, then your not within reason. That's how I look at it. In my opinion, if your lines aren't vertical and your under power, then your trolling. Your trolling motor is set too high then.
Chuck, we were out together that one afternoon on a local lake, you saw what happened, do you not think of that as trolling? |
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Location: north central wisconsin | TJ, I was told by a local warden once that one has the 'right' to reposition the boat along the structure if the boat blows off course etc. and that the line may move from a vertical angle for a few moments. Isn't it nearly impossible to maintain a completely vertical line, even while drifting at times?
Not trying to knit pick, actually agree with those above that say the law is really 'crappy' as stated, and should be changed/discarded. Really, it causes alot of stress on people nowadays when fishing in a manner that was historically 'ok', but within the past few years has become viewed upon by many as breaking the law.
Edited by Reef Hawg 10/25/2007 5:04 PM
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Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:52 AM
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| A well-settled and fundamental legal tenet is that ambiguity is construed against the drafter/state in the enforcement of regulations, statutes, etc.
The motor trolling clause/proviso is the epitome of ambiguous.
My money is on a would-be defendant (like C_Nelson). |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, Musky Central, USA | If I went trolling and caught a nice musky, I'd feel the same way I did when I caught my 46.5" fish at the rainbow flowage dam.. I guess it's just personal preference. 8 different fish were caught in 2 hours the next day, people were casting over each other. I got the 2nd largest, the biggest was a 49" 33lbs pig, my dad got the mount. It didn't feel right. Fish of 10,000 casts people. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, Musky Central, USA | former warden - 10/25/2007 3:53 PM
The bobber has nothing to do with it being illegal. What the line is doing above the water means nothing. The rule states " vertical where the line enters the water" as long as the line is vertical from the bobber to the sucker, this is vertical.
a nice big weight will solve anyones problem, unless your sucker is "tool lively" (no such thing!) VIVA LA SUCKERS! |
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Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | But the whole crappy thing about it is this, how can a warden see whether or not the line is vertical under a bobber when watching the angler from shore? I have used my trolling motor to re-position my boat with suckers out behind the boat yet still had a big slack bend in the line leading to the bobber. So if you’re going to ticket me for that I'm at a loss? I too fish without bobbers when fishing deep clear lakes and will say from experience that maintaining a vertical line without bobbers is at times harder than maintaining vertical with bobbers. When you guys are fishing in PI this weekend I wonder how many of you will be looking around at fellow MF guys and thinking, "hey that guy is breaking the law"! LOL
Ed
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| I like the comment about the wardens heatedly arguing about this rule. They can't even agree amounst themselves!
Common sense says this law needs to be stricken from the books. Experience says it won't. |
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