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Location: Wisconsin | If a blue tick hound stratches it's ear on the left side, the fishn' is goin' be goodn'.... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Like I said, when we can ask the muskies and they can answer, we will know for sure. |
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| On my Casio tough solar watch it measures barometric pressure by hpa. The measurement is not widely used by most. What is is a significant pressure change by this measurement? Right now it's 987hpa, if it dropped to 984hpa in a six hour period would that be significant?
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Location: Hugo, MN | muskycore - 10/9/2007 5:54 PM
On my Casio tough solar watch it measures barometric pressure by hpa. The measurement is not widely used by most. What is is a significant pressure change by this measurement? Right now it's 987hpa, if it dropped to 984hpa in a six hour period would that be significant?
Thanks
Hectopascals = Millibars |
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Location: Madtown, WI | 1 hPa is equivalent to 1 mb.... so in a sense hPa is very widely used. I'd say 3 mb in 6 hours is significant but a great way to find out for yourself is to check on wunderground.com where they keep historic records for every day for every city, you can look at a graph of the pressure trends. I'd reccommend looking up a significant weather event and see how large the change is there. |
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Location: Madtown, WI | I'm sorry, now that I have some time to post a response I can't help but correct some misinformation.
muskiemetal: "Yes, pressure gradient force is a fancy way to say wind. Air moves from high pressure system to a low pressue system."
stdevos: No, pressure gradient force (PGF) is not just a fancy way to say wind. PGF describes the force that makes air move from high pressure to low pressure. Therefore, PGF is always pointing from high to low. However, we know that wind does not usually blow perpendicular to isobars but rather parallel. The formula for wind is PGF + Coriolis Force + Frictional. I'd say PGF is a fancy way to say gravity.
muskiemetal:"Fronts are not associated with pressure..."
stdevos: I don't understand how you can say this. My question would be how is pressure not associated with a front? Why is there a big L on every cold front that passes. By definition a contrast in temperatures is what a front is but even by the ideal gas law pressure is "associated". Pressure is a major reason why fronts are structured how they are (in particular the wind rotating around the L). So please explain further, perhaps I'm taking this the wrong way. The most common way of drawing a warm and cold front free hand on a map by meteorologists is by looking ONLY at a pressure map.
muskiemetal: "The low has nothing to do with the front. "
stdevos: Again, explain how a low has nothing to do with a front. There is always a big L there for a reason, and if there isn't one there should be.
sworrall: "You ignore the barometer, I'll watch it, and we both will be confident in our interpretation of what the fish should do."
stdevos: I basically agree with everything that you have written. There is no question that a moving barometer indicates a potential feeding window as well as a change in weather. Like you say though, we have no way of knowing the why and that was my initial point. I'm certain (in my mind) that atmospheric pressure does not affect fish directly. I'm on the electricity (lightning) in the air kick, which i referenced in the article by Gene Smith. It makes more sense biologically.
My only question for Mr Worrall would be, just out of interest, how large of pressure spikes are you attributing the feeding windows to?
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm not 'attributing' anything, actually. I used barograph records and Knight's Solunars to look into any possible correlation to success in my daily guiding logs. There was, at least as far as I could tell. A shift or spike like the one listed in this thread was associated ( keep in mind there may be other variables) frequently to short activity windows not associated with a solunar period.
Sometimes that spike was an upward movement in an otherwise downward trend, or the opposite. Sometimes it was a spike up or down following the trend. Many times the change was short lived, but was associated with a little wind shift. All I know is catching fish at those times was a pretty common thing, so it's (perhaps too easy) logical to assume an association. |
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Location: Madtown, WI | Thanks for the quick response Steve. I agree with you, and don't understand how you couldn't, that barometric changes are definitely associated with fish activity. This has always been a topic that intrigues me. The problem is that I just don't get enough time on the water to make any definitive theories, so I'm just going to agree with you on this. |
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| You guys are great on your defending arguements, but reading it is causing me stress. The best time to go fishing is any day that ends in "Y". |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | True enough, but there's this little voice in my head asking the most irritating question some days. That question has always been.....
Why?? |
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| That will be the first question I ask waiting in line at the pearly gates. I just hope I'm in the right place to get the answer. Unless of course, I get reincarnated as a fish than I'll have hands on experience. My wife thinks its going to be the later. |
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Location: Wisconsin | ""muskiemetal: "Yes, pressure gradient force is a fancy way to say wind. Air moves from high pressure system to a low pressue system."
stdevos: No, pressure gradient force (PGF) is not just a fancy way to say wind. PGF describes the force that makes air move from high pressure to low pressure. Therefore, PGF is always pointing from high to low. However, we know that wind does not usually blow perpendicular to isobars but rather parallel. The formula for wind is PGF + Coriolis Force + Frictional. I'd say PGF is a fancy way to say gravity. ""
Right, PGF flows parallel to lines of equal pressure. Nothing to do with Gravity at all. It is the primary cause of wind on a macroscale. Friction is the earths surface causing a slight difference in the flow of wind. This has everything to do with wind and nothing to do with gravity.
""stdevos: I don't understand how you can say this. My question would be how is pressure not associated with a front? Why is there a big L on every cold front that passes. By definition a contrast in temperatures is what a front is but even by the ideal gas law pressure is "associated". Pressure is a major reason why fronts are structured how they are (in particular the wind rotating around the L). So please explain further, perhaps I'm taking this the wrong way. The most common way of drawing a warm and cold front free hand on a map by meteorologists is by looking ONLY at a pressure map.""
Fronts are a difference in wind speed, temperature and sometimes but not always a change in pressure. A front is a replacement of one type of air mass with another. Pressure doesn't neccessary have to change for this to occur. A low pressure center does not have to be involved with a cold front. All a cold front is, is cooler air replacing warmer air. A low could have fronts associated with it due to the types of air masses it is relating to and how winds are flowing in and around it. A cut off low will wrap different temperatures and in flows of moisture to develop a system of fronts that move with it. This has nothing to do with the pressure, but the winds and temperatures. This is what you see.
Fronts are drawn on maps by looking for the change in wind direction. That is how they are decided. The temperature of the air replacing will determine what type of front it is. I drew up plenty of pressure charts and it was the change in wind direction and a change in temperature that was my indication of a front. In fact, just a few days ago, we had a stationary front set up with no change in pressure.
If you can explain how a .10 of an ounce change in the pressure applied to the surface of a lake can change a fish, please. I say, why would a fish care??? What would it mean to a fish that deals with pressures much more greater have to care about something that was pushing down on the surface with .10 of a ounce of force. It doesn't change the water or change things in the water.
If you say that pressure can somehow be applied through the water, then you would have to explain how every hydraulic system in the world works.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No one said a fish 'cares'. Anthropomorphism tied in with your description of weather system 'possibilities' makes for much more of a 'liberal' interpretation than I will care to debate.
I've directly observed fish behavior during changes in barometric pressure. I also observed fish behavior during spikes up and down during a trend, falling OR rising. Ah well, I repeat myself....
If indeed there is absolutely positively no barometric pressure change and there's a dead level stable barometer (no low or high influencing local weather with a rising or falling trend and no temporary spikes up or down) and there is a change in the weather, it's not a 'front' that would concern me much unless the skies changed dramatically. Even then if you start taking detailed records and comparing them as I did, I'll bet you will find the bite under those conditions to be flat outside of solunar period influences, dawn, and dusk.
So how would I 'predict' the weather using a barometer?
Why would a fish care when moonrise is? How would a fish care about sun/moon/earth relationships? Fish don't 'care' IMHO, but I think they react. Knowing how, when, and why a possible correlation with anything possibly effecting the pattern is part of what I do to LOOK for an overall pattern.
Sure worked for me this summer.....right, TJ?
Call it what you will, I call it all part of a pattern. |
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Location: Madtown, WI | muskiemetal:
Ok, I guess I did understand you, you are really saying that pressure is not associated with fronts. This is not a battle that you can win. You can buy personal at-home weather stations for ~$50 that forecast 24 hours based solely on pressure changes. I do agree with you that wind is a great tool for adding details to your frontal boundary but give me a 1000-500mb thickness map and I can draw you a fairly accurate boundary in seconds.
In regards to PGF, you are wrong. PGF absolutely does not flow parallel to lines of constant pressure, rather it flows perpendicular to isobars.... directly from areas of high pressure to low pressure. The coriolis force turns the wind 90 degrees to the right in the northern hemisphere, and that is why wind flows parallel to isobars. Friction at the surface can then change the wind further. Again, WIND = PGF + COR + Friction. If you really think about it, PGF is actually a result of gravity. Think of the same situation in a lake, if there is more water on one side of the lake (high pressure) than the other (low pressure), GRAVITY will cause the water to flow from the area of more water (high pressure) to the side with less water (low pressure) until the lake reaches equilibrium. Shake an aquarium left to right and watch it happen. It works exactly the same way in the atmosphere, just replace water per square area with air per square area.
I agree with you though, why would a fish care? Still, paying attention to the barometer is a great tool to predict fish activity. Is it always right? No. Do we know why? No. But I'm definitely listening to what Mr. Worrall has to say since my experience has been very similar to his (probably not as big though).
If anybody else has actually read this far, I commend you. For your patience, I wish you a fall fatty. Thank me later  |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I love discussions like this. I learned alot and refreshed old classes in the old grey cranium, thanks guys.
Sometimes a particular pattern is easy to pin down, sometimes not.
I see it like any other puzzle, keep trying to get the pieces to fit. When one fits, look it over, and move on the the next... |
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Location: Minneapolis | muskiemetal:
I think you may have confused correlation with causation. I don't think anyone has enough data to show a barometric change *causes* fish to change behavior. As you correctly point out, any atmospheric change would not be detectable under water.
I think what Steve is saying is fish behavior is *correlated* to barometric changes. Cold temperatures are correlated with snow, but snow certainly does not cause cold temperatures.
But does it really matter if the changing barometer is only correlated to muskie activity? The barometer is something we can observe and measure, if it helps us find more active fish, I'm all over it. |
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Location: Wisconsin | It was put simply, winds generally flow parallel to isos. Yes, it is equalibrium, but I wouldn't call it gravity. That is not the correct term. But a front is a change in wind direction and that is how meterologists plot them.
I have attached a current 500-1000mb thinkness and surface. Please explain how each low pressure center doesn't always have a front associated with it. Also explain how the high pressure centers do not as well. If we use your intereptation of a front, each one of those "L" and "H" should have a front AROUND it. If that is how you explain a front, then a front should be around each of those systems. Not the case.
You can also explain how fronts are across lines of equal pressure. Doesn't this also violate your understanding? You can see each of the cut off lows in the Atlantic or Pacific have a warm and cold front running across pressure lines. The pressure is the same on either side of the front.
Steve, I wasn't actually stating that fish "feel", but how would a fish react to a pressure change and how would a fish use that pressure change for feeding. Why does pressure change give it an advantage to feed or to be inactive. Fish move all the time and it can be for many reasons which the majority of them relate to food. A slight change in the amount of pressure exerted on the surface of a lake isn't going to do that. Air pressure can not transfer into the water and thus a fish can not sense it.
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Location: Wisconsin | Rpike, that is what I have been trying to say all along. pressure changes, fronts, etc bring with it changing weather patterns. Wind direction and speed and cloud cover have an effect on fish due to light penetration in the water. Just as murky water reduces visability, it is the same for waves on a lake or a cloudy day. Just as Walleyes can be caught in 16 feet of water on Winnebago on the brightest day, versus up north you wouldn't catch a walleye in clear water in the same depth.
However, fronts and visibility in the water isn't controlled by air pressure. A barometer is a tool that limits a fisherman, not helps. Fish are always biting, you just have to adjust the presentation to fit the mood. Like was said before, the best day to fish is a day with Y on the end....
Edited by Muskiemetal 10/11/2007 10:01 PM
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Location: Madtown, WI | muskiemetal:
I'll save everyones time (including my own) and not go into more detail. Fronts are definitely associated with pressure. I'm sorry that your not seeing what I'm seeing but I see pressure associated with every front drawn on the maps you provided.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Metal, you use what you want to develop your fishing patterns, I'll use what I want.
Ignore barometric pressure changes all you want.
I won't.
How many times do I have to ask the same question, and get a "LOOK OVER THERE!!!" answer?
WHAT IF THERE'S NO SKY CONDITION CHANGE, NO SOLUNAR EVENT (WHICH YOU CANNOT ACCEPT HAS ANY CORRELATION BY YOUR ARGUMENT ANYWAY), AND THERE'S A SUDDEN SHORT WINDOW OF ACTIVITY, NO WAVE HEIGHT CHANGES, NO FREAKING 'LIGHT LEVEL' CHANGES, BUT A SPIKE OR CHANGE IN THE barometric pressure (heck, I can WATCH the popple leaves turn over!) AND AN ACTIVITY PERIOD COINCIDE??????
(obvious answer, same one I have..."I don't know"... try it on!)
I used a freaking secchi disc (http://dipin.kent.edu/secchi.htm) for YEARS to collect fishing log data. Not a freaking Color C-lector, the real deal. I understand CLEARLY how light and water interact, and have a TON of information on how the different species of fish's vision systems utilize that available light. I even went to the extreme of using a spectrograph and known light penetration levels to recreate conditions underwater in VERY clear water. Other than the obvious cloudy VS clear, dawn/dark rising/falling In Fish Chart related and proven activity 'periods', you are off the edge on that one,IMHO.
'Fish are always biting'.
No, they are not. Many days I subscribe to the Howie Meyer school of thought that one should not leave big fish to find big fish. They 'move' AND 'DON'T MOVE' with some predictability, and that sir is a pattern.
I cover the best of the best fishing tournaments for up to $150,000.00 first place on the top producing walleye waters across North America, and some days the fish in general are on a VERY tough bite--- low light levels and all. When half the field zeros and almost NO big fish are caught on Erie, it's been a tough day, and these guys do this for a living. Believe me, these guys are on the fish AND the big fish and know how to make 'em bite if anyone can, so it ain't that, either. Guess what time of day MOST of the walleyes are caught during that competition, no matter Winnebago or Lake Michigan or Devil's Lake or the Missouri River? It would also amaze you the number of 'eyes caught in very clear water on very sunny days in very shallow water.....
More anthropomorphism, fish don't HAVE 'moods' as we use the term. That implies a level of intelligence that simply isn't there.
Friday I have a problem...what to do? Fish, hunt birds, hunt ducks, or bow hunt? Think I'll fish the evening, looks like a good pattern setting up.....then again, the deer will move an hour before dusk.... |
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Location: Columbus, Georgia | Everyone:
I made the original post looking to get a better handle on this subject/science. As it turned out, I had a box-seat to the "world series thread" on barometric pressure as it relates (for me) specifically to Musky fishing.
Thanks to all, and a special thanks to Steve. I have been following the thread closely now for some days, and feel as if I just got Wille Mays autograph.
The science, detail, and thought put into this subject and thread as it relates to fishing is astounding... as I see it.
Craig
Edited by cjrich 10/12/2007 7:50 AM
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Location: Hugo, MN | A Front is defined as the transition zone or interface between two air masses of different densities, which usually means different temperatures. Nothing more, nothing less. Front is a general term and can be preceded by the following adjectives: Cold, Warm, Sea Breeze, Gust, Pseudo-Cold, Pseudo-Warm, Wrapping Gust, Kata, Occluded, Polar, Stationary, Quasi-Stationary.
IMHO, the 3 things that seem effect "the bite", and wild animals in general, the most are:
Barometric Pressure
Moon Period
Sunrise/Sunset
When 1 or more of the factors coincide with each other is normally when things explode. I've read some really convoluted explanations of "weather" on this thread and to be honest most guys are making things way more complicated than they need to be. First rule of fishing is that the best time to fish is whenever you can get out because even though we all know that during a full moon with Sunset and a Front approaching is the best time to be out it still doesn't guarantee fish. If you're trying to plan around all these factors you'll frustrate yourself more than you could possibly imagine. JUST FISH BABY!!
Jason Sturm
B.S. Atmospheric Physics - University of Arizona
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Location: Wisconsin | Just explain how a fish in water can sense a change in air pressure and thus would know that it is time to feed. That is what is being stated. When a "spike" occurs, what would that do to a fish that would entice them to begin feeding?
Plus, I never said that fish never bite during bright sunny days. It is just the strike zone of the fish shrinks and the fish can be negative. Depending on the fish, walleyes and such. A slow verticle presentation is best in clear water. Fish are always feeding, it is up to the fisherman to find out what it takes.
Take Bass fishing for simplistic explainations. low light conditions will have Bass up and chasing crankbaits or spinnerbaits. However, if the sun breaks out, then you must turn to fishing tight into structure, docks, edges. This has been proven....
I agree, keeping track of .01 changes in mb's is drastic. Just go fishing....
""Never say, "The fish aren't biting." They're ALWAYS biting. There's no such thing as a lake where the fish aren't biting. They're just not biting what you have to offer! They have seen what you've presented and said, "No.""
---Al Lindner
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Location: Hugo, MN | "Fish are always feeding, it is up to the fisherman to find out what it takes. "
That's B as in B, S as in S. Plain and Simple. I have had situations where I could see muskies and threw the tackle box at them drug and dropped lures in front of their mouths and on top of their head, etc. Sometimes the Muskies just don't bite. It's a fact of life and I have no explanation for it. |
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| marine_1 - 10/12/2007 4:54 PM
"Fish are always feeding, it is up to the fisherman to find out what it takes. "
That's B as in B, S as in S. Plain and Simple. I have had situations where I could see muskies and threw the tackle box at them drug and dropped lures in front of their mouths and on top of their head, etc. Sometimes the Muskies just don't bite. It's a fact of life and I have no explanation for it.
Somewhere in these many lines, some guy said that Muskies are wierd...
I think he's right. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | First, Al Lindner is an acquaintance; I've known the guy for a very long time.. He's a great guy and an icon in this sport, but he gets skunked too.
Fish are always biting SOUNDS great, but sorry, sometimes they simply are not. EXPLAIN THAT!! PM<A demands we keep a positive position, but come on, some days just plain suck, even though everything looks great. Why?? You going to tell me that's light penetration?
Some days the bite is VERY VERY tough. Yes, someone will usually catch a fish, but it isn't because that guy had some magic, usually it's just plain good fortune to trip across a fish that triggered. And some days NO one on the entire lake puts a Ski in the boat.
Second, I'm a Bass angler first, Muskie second. I catch Bass in BRIGHT sunny conditions, and out on the flats. In fact, we did exactly that today. When the sun shows, some days I get as far from the 'structure' you describe, and on purpose. You need to follow FLW and BASS more, quite a bit of the old guard accepted 'norms' have changed.
As I asked you to explain a bunch of times about the correlation ( no necessarily cause, as was pointed out) between barometric pressure and fish activity--- YOU TELL ME, without the light thing, you are still ignoring my question and hollering "look over THERE!!!"
I don't pretend to have the answers, but I know what I see and see what I know. Something happens out there, and some day it might just be explained. Until that time, I'll watch the barometer and adjust my patterns accordingly.
I never said fish 'know' a darned thing. You keep saying that, and using it to argue with me. Please...
And Muskies ARE weird. |
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Location: Stevens Point, WI | I have one question for myself, why am I going to school at UWSP when I should be going to UW-Steve Worrall? haha. Mr.Worrall I'm thinking you have a backup career choice if need be!
I haven't had the time this past week to read all this but glad I took the time tonight. What a thread! I really don't have much to add to this but other than being on the water with Mr. Worrall multiple days with incoming front and every other weather conditions possible, I would definitely have to agree with the things Mr.Worrall has to say.
Edited by Merckid 10/12/2007 9:16 PM
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| In all seriousness, I am taking a few things away from this thread that I had not in my mind previously. The tidbits of information that have been stored by soem of you guys is great. |
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Location: Columbus, Georgia | I am quite curious as to what Doug Johnson would have to say in response to some of the points made in this thread.
Hey Doug ... can you add to / report / refute some of the highlights here?
Craig
Edited by cjrich 10/13/2007 3:14 AM
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Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Wow! Pretty interesting discussion.
"I'm certain (in my mind) that atmospheric pressure does not affect fish directly."
"A slight change in the amount of pressure exerted on the surface of a lake isn't going to do that. Air pressure can not transfer into the water and thus a fish can not sense it. "
K- I'm not a ichthyologist, nor am I a Weatherman, and I don't play either on the TV. Who would have thought that certain birds have a built in magnetic compass. This is something similar, i.e., we can't ask them. However, through field observation there seems to be a correlation between pressure changes and fish activity. So, I think fish can sense these pressure gradients (read change in pressure). What the above quoted statement's ignore is both the fact that fish have swim bladder's and Boyles Law. Given a stable temperature, there is a predictable relationship between the volume of the swim bladder and the surrounding pressure. Oh yes, don't forget about the hydraulics of water, i.e., that's how the surface pressure change gets transfered to the swim bladder.
Al |
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