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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | gosh we go through this every summer. yes it sux but we must put up with it. here in indiana everybody is going bonkers becouse of the water temps. there are many ways to look at it. we all have our views of it and know the consaquences. anyway who are we to say anything for a fisherman who has paid there fee for a liscense and has the right to fish. are we to go out and potrol the lakes and tell them to get off the water. i think not... all we can do is teach nicely then look away.. just my 2 cents....bill |
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Posts: 314
Location: Bristol, IN | That 48" I caught was @ 8:25 A.M. in 75 degree water. She was landed quickly and released promptly, too.
I do believe that some fisherpersons do not release them properly. There is a right way and a wrong way to revive/ release these fish.
#1 Wrong way is to push/ pull the fish...this equals DEATH.
#1 RIGHT way is to keep upright (like a surfaced submarine).
Thank you in advance,
Mike "MuskyTaleMike" Albright
R.V.P. Chapter #49
Edited by MuskyTaleMike 6/26/2007 2:51 PM
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| wow! there's some brains around this forum. I've yet to catch my first muskie but I pledge to be very careful always release and to educate myself right here as much as possible. thanks guys! |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | Amazingly -- we still see the pros on many of our DVD's pulling/pushing the fish in an effort to revive them. What's up with that ???
I agree with Musky Tale Mike -- this drowns the fish.
Craig |
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Posts: 8865
| cjrich,
Ideally, water flowing over the gills through the mouth is the best way to reoxygenate a fish. Recent research suggests that the gills are far less efficient at absorbing oxygen through water flowing the opposite direction. If you push the fish forward, you have to pull it backwards to push it forward again. There is some speculation that water flowing backwards over the gills can damage the gill filaments, as well, so now the trend is to sway the fish from side to side...
Why do people still do it the other way? Because someone taught them long ago that that was the way to do it, and nobody has ever given them any reason to believe otherwise.
Is it something we need to worry about? Not in my opinion. As long as people are putting them back and making an attempt to put them back healthy, I see no cause for concern.
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | "In all out-of-water handling options, the loss of the protective mucus layer that protects fish from waterborne bacterial and viral infection is an additional concern. This is especially true during the warmer water temperature months when the populations of these organisms are at their peak. So, if you really want to impress me with a photo of your catch, then minimize your handling and show me that fish in the water!"
Very well written article!!
The quote I posted above from the article is a major problem for salmonids in my part of the country. When you grab a fish by the caudal peduncle (narrow part of
the tail) which we all do, you inadvertently rub off all the protective slime. This isn't a problem in cold water temps but when the water is in the 80's it becomes a prime location for bacteria/infection to begin. In some years we see a high percentage of "pre-spawn mortality" on chinook and in nearly every case you can see where the problem started....right at the tail where the fish was grabbed. These fish die before spawning, not a good thing.
Before you grab a musky by the tail wet your hands and although a glove is nice for the fisherman it probably does more damage than good.....particularly if the water is warm.
This article makes a strong arguement for keeping the fish in the water at all times and really the pics if done correctly look as good or better in-water!!
Thanks for posting the article link.
Jed V.
Edited by RiverMan 6/22/2007 12:39 PM
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | I try not to even sway the fish from side to side. When you are holding onto the tail and moving the fish in any direction, you are rubbing off the protective barrier on the fish where you are holding it. A fish will breath (suck in water by opening/expanding it's gill plates) on its own. |
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Posts: 27
Location: Bargersville, IN | Good point Vince. I once caught a 42" 6 days after releasing it. I know it was the same fish because it had a cut in its back from rolling in my line. Upon releasing it for the second time I noticed a palm size open wound on its tail from me holding on to it the first time. Lessons learned, 1 don't handle 'em with dry hands and 2 don't move 'em around as Vince mentioned. |
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | esoxaddict,
Thank you for your explanation. On occasion (seriously) ... I will bow to science. This is one of them.
Craig |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I agree wholeheartedly about keeping the fish in the "livewell"...that Big Kahuna net you've got hanging over the side of the boat. I see no reason to take a fish out of the water, as long as a person can safely unhook the fish while it's in the net. The slime layer is a crucial issue--especially in the summer months, as has been pointed out.
I *completely* understand how people take the utmost care to avoid dropping the fish when they are posing for a picture with it, but I still don't like the "cradle hold" that you see people doing. Just think for a second about the surface area of the fish's body that is in contact with the anglers dry, absorbent clothing. Seems like a good way to take the slime layer off one whole side of the fish to me... And in a lot of these pictures you can see the slime all over the angler's shirt.
That's gonna leave a mark.
TB |
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| indiana musky fishing was designed for fish not to live long, maybe ten years ,for fish to be caught all year long .and to get people on the water. this is not the holy land for musky and never will. all the indiana lakes together add up to one medium sized lake up north. they are overly stocked and continuing to hammer them will never hurt their numbers. the sad truth about many people commenting here is they fish for them when they spawn. even though the musky dont reproduce, they spawn . the males are beat the hell and the females are highly stressed. the eggs in webster are harvested by dnr to grow remotely are return later. theses same fisherman still hammer this fish underminding the whole system. dont tell the half truth tell the whole truth. indiana musky lakes should be fished all year. |
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Posts: 8865
| wholetruthindiana - 6/26/2007 2:14 PM
indiana musky fishing was designed for fish not to live long, maybe ten years ,for fish to be caught all year long .and to get people on the water. this is not the holy land for musky and never will. all the indiana lakes together add up to one medium sized lake up north. they are overly stocked and continuing to hammer them will never hurt their numbers. the sad truth about many people commenting here is they fish for them when they spawn. even though the musky dont reproduce, they spawn . the males are beat the hell and the females are highly stressed. the eggs in webster are harvested by dnr to grow remotely are return later. theses same fisherman still hammer this fish underminding the whole system. dont tell the half truth tell the whole truth. indiana musky lakes should be fished all year.
According to the people who study fish for a living, fishing for them when they are "highly stressed" and "beat the hell" really has no detrimental effects on the population.
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34...
But fishing for them in waters with very low dissolved oxygen levels due to high water temperatures apparently does lead to increased mortality.
So who is really "underminding" the whole system??
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i just know from experience ... i was on a back bay at LOTW about 7 years ago and it was putrid hot and miserable and the temps. and o2 levels must have been low ... caught about a 39" fish and never took it out of the water and it was stone dead rolled over and just wouldn't go ... we tried in the livewell for over an hour and only took solace that an eagle would eat, but the feeling sucked and i'd rather not knowingly contribute to killing a nice fish again if i don't have to ... there are other things that can be done to take a break when one is warranted whether i have the right or not, i do have a brain and the ability to choose right from wrong based on my own belief ...
so, that being said ... of course if people want chances at big fish continuing into the future they might make plans that effect the chances and if people want their own interests served they have the right to do that too ... it makes a statement about who you are to make a choice to do the right thing for others or the resources and it's defined by a word called sportsmanship ... |
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| my statements are in regaurd to only indiana waters. and yes hammering these fish during spawn does have a very negative effrect on pottential population just as abortion does. ive seen people with spilled eggs in their boats i witnessed the terrible egg counts this year. i wish people would just accept that these indiana waters are awesome pay ponds and thats it. a "super fish" in indiana is 50 inches and most never reach 30 pounds. a monster up north will reproduce for 10 to 15 years and may live up to thirty years. not the case in indiana. 10 years of life is about it.hence , we stock the hell out of these lakes. i dont fish these lakes this time of year , but i am so sick of the bashing, name calling and half truths. the purpose of these dnr stocking regiments is to get people on the water . saying that hammering fish during spawn doesnt hurt the population is a good argument for all open seasons everywhere. but we all know that is plain crazy. |
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| Question? Why is it that there is so much discussion about warm water in the southern states, but it doesn't seem to scare certain guides from these same states off of the lakes in Minnesota when the water temp here goes over 80 degrees? Don't want to kill fish in your home waters, but no problems killing them out of state? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Answer:
Most years water temps on the big Minnesota Waters don't get high enough to be dangerous except for the first foot of surface water or so. Last year some of the Guides over there DID curtail activities for a couple weeks when it got ridiculously hot. Another answer; certain Minnesota Guides keep right on fishing as well; I know because I was over on Mille Lacs during a couple of the heat waves. No, I wasn't fishing, i was working.
Pretty unseemly accusation, J.
As far as closed seasons during the spawn,I personally believe that Dave N hit it dead on. Social issue more than biological. Opening the season with the rest of the gamefish really has little or no effect on the muskie population. Most southern states allow sight fishing BASS on the beds after finding no detrimental effects from the practice, and bass tend a nest. Muskies simply broadcast the roe on the (hopefully) correct substrate and move on, to later feast on their own young if the opportunity arises. |
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| Rude or not, its reality. We regularly see guides from the southern states, including some well known ones fishing here during the hotest periods of the summer. especially last year when the water temps were reaching into the upper 80's. Rude would be naming names, or posting pictures of trucks at the boat access. How is this any different than someone from northern MN taking a trip to fish the "nice warm waters" of Indiana right now because the fishing here hasn't heated up just yet? The point being, fishing during hot periods is just as destructive no matter where you go. Just because you go north, it doesn't make 85 degrees any colder. It pains me to see people who make there livelyhood out of musky fishing having so little respect for the fishery by justifying fishing during hot periods by moving somewhere that it is "only" 86 degrees instead of 90. |
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Posts: 8865
| You have to look at the dissolved oxygen levels and the water temps below the surface to really get the whole picture here. You're talking about completely different lakes, different depths of water, different kinds of vegetation, and different strains of fish between MN and the Southern waters. Saying there is an equal danger to the fish in both cases, without taking all the other factors into account is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. |
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| i was set and ready for my first minnesota musky fishing expereince last summer, when i got a phone call from my traveling guide buddy who was in minnesota for the summer, telling me basiclly forget about coming it was too hot and he was layin off for a while til temps cooled down. so for what it was worth i know of at least one weekend of fishing that was cancelled last year first hand by a out of state guide. guest your the same guy who has been making bold statements on another board but you never seem to want to back your talk with your name. what gives???? |
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Posts: 8865
| And I suspect that in many cases it comes down to "If I don't fish, I don't get paid, and if I don't get paid, I don't eat."
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Lots of ways to say something and get your point across without attacking, and singling out a specific group of guides and painting them all with a broad stroke when MOST kept fishing no matter where they live in the winter is unseemly. Not disagreeing with you that there are times when the guides should curtail activities, and like i said, I know of a few from 'down south' who did just that when it got too warm.
Addict has an excellent point about the water quality, dissolved oxygen levels, etc.
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Posts: 827
Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | Not every guide from down south is guiding Mille Lacs, some are guiding on our smaller lakes and others are guiding our brood stock lakes all summer long  |
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Posts: 8865
| What difference does it make where those guides are from? |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | So? So are the Guides who live there all year long. We have the same thing here in Wisconsin; $40.00 and you are a guide no matter where you hail from. used to be one had to be a resident, but that changed a few years back. Don't like out of state guides? Have your Legislature change the law and forbid that practice. But don't single them out and attack them when it's clearly an issue to be addressed by ALL muskie anglers and ALL Muskie Guides. |
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Posts: 827
Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | esoxaddict - 6/28/2007 4:29 PM
What difference does it make where those guides are from?
Because these guides are leaving home waters because they are too "warm" just to guide on waters that still get too warm.
Edited by Phish Killer 6/28/2007 4:42 PM
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Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | sworrall - 6/28/2007 4:31 PM
So? So are the Guides who live there all year long. We have the same thing here in Wisconsin; $40.00 and you are a guide no matter where you hail from. used to be one had to be a resident, but that changed a few years back. Don't like out of state guides? Have your Legislature change the law and forbid that practice. But don't single them out and attack them when it's clearly an issue to be addressed by ALL muskie anglers and ALL Muskie Guides.
No problem with out of state guides at all, lot's of them out there on Mille Lacs...cool, that pond doesn't get all that warm. I just don't like guides in general guiding our small/brood stock lakes that's all. |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes, the tendency is to are oversimplify when 'marking territory'. Many years the surface water temps in WI and MN don't get over 75 degrees. I guarantee the temps in some Southern waters reach over 90 degrees every summer. And, I might point out, many guides are not headed to MN because the water is cooler, they are headed there because the guiding opportunities are better in the summer because it isn't 97 degrees every day and the Muskies are bigger and more numerous and the tourists come to MN to fish during that season, and not so much to the South. Age old example of supply and demand. Seems to me I see a few Yankees guiding on the Southern waters in the winter, too.
The point still is EVERYONE should exercise caution when water temps get too high. Wasn't that the point? |
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Posts: 8865
| Killer, they're leaving waters that get too warm for weeks or even months out of the season in favor of waters that get too warm for a few days here and there. More importantly, they are going where there is a demand for their services. For someone that relies on guiding to put food on the table, can you blame them for going to guide where people want to fish? Because lets be honest -- water temps aside, and home states aside, everyone is guiding in MN during the summer because thats where all their clients want to fish. If you want to be a musky guide, you have to do it where you can find enough clients to make a living at it.
It's no secret. Read all the magazines, watch the TV shows, look at the internet. If you want to go musky fishing, you go to MN. Any guide with half a brain knows that you gotta guide where people want to fish.
Edited by esoxaddict 6/28/2007 4:50 PM
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Posts: 1636
| I've been looking into this a lot more the last 2 weeks. Thanks to all that have replied to this thread.
So when temps get up to 80 degrees in Minnesota do you guys up north stop fishing? Do you cancel your fishing trips? I can recall a guy ("guide") rambling on and on and even insulting people for fishing in Indiana when the water temps were in the 80's, yet he was fishing himself in Minnesota...where the water temp wasn't any less and the fish much larger.
"guest" does make some good points. Pretty strong opinions, but some are true. SOME
Edited by Reelwise 6/28/2007 7:00 PM
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This thread was about whether or not higher than average surface temps are harmful and stressful to Muskies caught during the warm water periods, and what temps should cause concern under which conditions.
There seems to be disagreement as to what is 'too warm', and at what point each body of water has reached critical mass for water temps. There seems to be disagreement as to what 80 degree surface temps mean when it's 71 two feet down.
Pointing fingers at people and complaining anonymously won't get us anywhere with the debate.
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