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| Minnesota55 - 4/10/2007 6:32 PM
I would think to guide on the waters you listed that you are very experianced on those lakes like 10-15 years experiance on them, and you know there seasonal patterns and could put fish in the net.If I was to hire a guide i also would want on the water experiance.Not something memorized out of a magazine.I also would like to see results.You also as a guide have to cater to the clients and get along with everyones personalitys.
Read up the article "So you want to be a guide"Musky hunter magazine.
Mike
BE CAREFUL!!!!! I got beat up here once before when I questioned ones experience based on actual/ versus whats been absorbed from "Musky Hunter" magazine. I hate to say this, but there are alot of book smart fisherman out there. I would rather learn from someone that has attended the "College Of Hard Knocks".....so to speak. |
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| I would think to guide on the waters you listed that you are very experianced on those lakes like 10-15 years experiance on them, and you know there seasonal patterns and could put fish in the net.
i agree with the "very experienced" on the particular lake part, and knowing patterns is clearly a key.
however, i don't think it takes 10-15 years to develop that; few of the top and most popular guides out there right now have that much time on the waters they are guiding but they've got enough experience and time on the water every season to know the daily patterns, plus the fishing smarts to use them.
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | Just remember broken poles, broken reels, lost lures, new line from birds nests, people hooked, lost net when someone drops it in the water, broken parts on the boat. Remember alot of these people will have never fished before. I think it can be done but there is some hidden expenses upfront, how about right handed and left handed reels, maybe even and open face, some non musky lures for older and younger clients. Then you have your time. Just some thoughts..
pga |
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| It took two pages, but pgaschulz finally brought it up. Prepare to fish with and clean up after lots and lots of people who do next to no fishing. Having the multi-species angle/option covered will help you huge.
My $0.000002 is to ask yourself what YOU plan on getting into guiding. Are you looking to teach and help fishermen develop? Earn extra money? Earn full-time money? Get a decal for your truck, a baseball hat and a tackle company's 20% Pro-Staff Discount for selling their stuff? Meet new friends? Just get the chance to fish a lot? There's some overlap, but I don't think any of these potential reasons are mutually exclusive in and of themselves. It can abe a lot of fun, nothing but the best bud. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | the point on either being able to teach bait-casting technique or be prepared with alternate equipment is a good one. i have a spinning reel mounted on a musky rod (grind off the trigger on a bench grinder) ... i don't like to have to resort to that as an option, but have had to go that route in the past. |
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| I believe that they ought to adopt a stringent guide classification system. I work in the building trades, and when I started my career I was an "apprentice", making 60% of journeyman scale. Over three years I gained experience and the title "journeyman". I wish guides had to "pay their dues" similarly!
There should be a governing body who decides how much a guide can charge. Each winter, a guide would have to have a "review" where he/she documents every guided trip of the preceding year. Clients would send report cards to this governing body and would be of secondary importance in the review. The primary factor in deciding if a guide deserves a pay raise would be quantity and quality of boated musky. I believe this would bring more respect to the guiding industry, and increase the market considerably. My last crazy idea is that any client who is "skunked" gets a coupon for another day of his choosing(within 2 years) at half price. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I disagree. A guide can charge what he feels his services are worth. Its up to the angler to decide whether they feel that guide is worthy of that price. It is also up to the angler to do research on a guide. Contact passed clients, ask questions on message boards, talk to the guide personally. There is plenty of information out there to base a decision on. If by some chance you hire a crappy guide, you will be able to talk about that guide places and not recommend them, so in a sense they are giving themselves a bad rap and in turn hurting their business. Do your research before you hire a guide and I doubt that you would be disapointed. If you are, then dont be a sally and speak up about it. |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | Lots of great stuff brought up so far!
I want to address a few things:
About having the patience to teach newbies; Everyone I have fished muskys with, other than 4 people, I have gotten into the sport, taught them to cast, lure selection, spots, etc. Of course "stuff Happens" and things get broke or lost. Fact of life.
For backlashes when teaching a newbie to cast, I pull out 20 more yards of line than a regular cast, and then wrap the spool with electrician's tape, then reel in the remaining line. If a backlash does happen, it only happens down to the tape.
What do I plan on getting out of guiding?;
I am looking to teach and help fishermen develop, and Earn extra part-time money. As far as getting a decal for your truck, a baseball hat and a tackle company's 20% Pro-Staff Discount for selling their stuff, My two favorite baitmakers in the world already hook me up. Meet new friends? Are we all not looking for new friends? Some move away, some die, some just go their seperate ways. Just get the chance to fish a lot? If I fish, it's up to the client. I can run the bowmount from the rear of the boat. If they don't want me to wet a line, that is up to them.
a stringent guide classification system?
While this sounds reel (pun) good in theory, I doubt that fishing guides will ever be under the scrutiny of an ISO 9000 classification. If you (or anyone else, not picking on you guest) were a client of mine and you felt cheated, you would complain about me to ten peple. Whoever, if you felt you got your monies worth, you would tell maybe 5 people about me. That's human nature.
Guest, your last idea is not crazy at all. I had already thought of it, and will implement that, with some exceptions (ie: client used his own equipment after I advised against it because of a damaged rod or frayed line, his partner insisted on doing the net job and botched it terribly, etc), and 25% off if they had hot follows.
I do disagree about your statement of guides being prostitutes. Guides like Lunker Lou Eich, Howie Meyer, Steve Worral, Norm Wild, and Roger Sabota, Rich Reinhart (there are many more, just not coming to mind right now), are some of the greatest people I have met! Whether you hire them, or just ask them for advice, they always are willing to give you honest information. They may not say "go over to this spot and throw this", but they would say " look for this type of structure and work it thorough and slow with a bait that has some orange on it". Sure, some guys are just out there to make a buck and nothing else. However, they are the exception, rather than the rule.
Thanx to all so far for your input!
Edited by muskynightmare 4/11/2007 3:30 PM
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Posts: 8777
| esux, That would kill the business. First off, you'd be paying based on the lake and not the guide. Which would mean all the lakes that lack size and or numbers? No more guides to hire. And on the lakes with great musky fishing? There'd be so many guides none of them would be able to make any money.
Guides are raising their prices right now because gas is $3/gallon, boats are more expensive, trucks are more expensive, gear is more expensive...
By the time you pay for all your stuff, a full time guide is probably lucky to clear $15/hour.
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| I have been reading this post for some time now. For me personally, a guided fish I caught would not be as rewarding as catching one on my own, therefore I would never hire one. This is musky fishing, part of the excitement is the hunt, the thrill of figuring it out.
I am sorry Rob, but from reading your posts over the years, and this is trying to be constructive, you are not qualified to be a guide. How many actual fish have you caught? Again, this is not a personal attack, just the reality of the situation.
As for other guides, I am not a fan of them as guides. As people they may be great, but I think it is exploiting and ruining several of the good lakes out there, for personal gain. (financial) There really can not be any other motivation to guide then the money, and if one is given it is sugar coating in my opinion. Do you really enjoy taking people out, fixing messes, backlashes, untangling lines, answering a gazzilion questions? i doubt it. If you do, take out kids...and teach them for free. What it boils down to is the dollar.
What really bothers me, is the tendency for guides to pick up and move to a new area and start guiding right away. The movement towards MN for example. without naming names, how many of these guys had really good experience on these lakes prior to showing up there and opening up a guide business? Or how about the mn guides who are now setting up shop in Indiana and else where. Do these guys have the credentials on those bodies of water to charge people?
Take a step back and put yourself in the real world. Would you hire an investment banker to do your companies-year end audit? I doubt it.
Sorry for the rant. |
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Posts: 2089
| Prostitute???? If I have to do THAT too, I'm raising my rates for sure. Steve |
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Posts: 8777
| You really think the main motivation to guide is money? If that was the case nobody would do it, because you can make more money doing just about anything else.
As for "credentials", musky fishing is musky fishing, and a good guide is a good guide no matter where he is fishing. These "not naming names" guides who came to MN? Put their clients on a lot of big fish didn't they? |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | I am sorry Rob, but from reading your posts over the years, and this is trying to be constructive, you are not qualified to be a guide. How many actual fish have you caught? Again, this is not a personal attack, just the reality of the situation.
As for other guides, I am not a fan of them as guides. As people they may be great, but I think it is exploiting and ruining several of the good lakes out there, for personal gain. (financial) There really can not be any other motivation to guide then the money, and if one is given it is sugar coating in my opinion. Do you really enjoy taking people out, fixing messes, backlashes, untangling lines, answering a gazzilion questions? i doubt it. If you do, take out kids...and teach them for free. What it boils down to is the dollar.
Esox Junkie, I am always open to constructive critisim. I do not feel that you were trying to attack me in any way. I have been after musky long before I found this board. How many have I caught? I don't carry a number around in my head. I'd have to go through twelve or so year's worth of notes to know for sure.
As far as guides doing it for their financial gain, well, ya. It is their job. They go to work and get paid. Everyone needs money, that is why they call it money. I feel for you to say that is like saying a papermill worker exploits and kills trees.
I already do take kids out and teach them. My grand daughter is already casting her spincast rod with some accuracy (she's only three, and she is getting pretty good with her bow, as well). I taught my own three kids and their friends how to fish, as well as nieces and nephews, friends kids, etc.
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| I have read alot of your posts also and I would have to agree with esox junkie......you do not have a resume to back the profession. Keep learning, keep teaching kids and over time maybe a reputation with some backing will evolve. Sounds like you have the passion, but it takes more than that! Mostly it takes experience.....hands on.....not from what you read! |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | FYGR8:
If I was to say 25% of my knowledge was book knowledge, it would not be accurate. More like 10%, mostly right from the get-go, learning the fundementals. No one was there to show me the ropes when I first started, because I knew no one personally who did fish for musky. Time on the water over the last 12 years or so is where I gained most of my knowledge, as well as fishing with guys like K-bob and Muskymaj, my wife keeping me sharp by constantly asking questions, and sharing information with fellow club members, folks on this board, and people I have met all over the state in pursuit of this fish. Do I have more to learn? Sure, we all do. Am I saying I'm a better fisherman than, let's say, you? No, because I do not know you, don't pay attention to what you have posted as to how many fish you have caught, or anyone else for that matter. So, if you judge me by how you interpret my posts, wouldn't that be just like saying "I have read all of so-and-so's articles, so now I know everything about him?
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Posts: 52
| You know I see alot of posts on this thread getting, seems to me, unfairly malicious and I think it may be some people who have thought about guiding and didn't have the self confidence. Just because they didn't have the guts to stake their livelihood on their skill at fishing doesn't mean you shouldn't. Frankly at this point if I were you I'd pay no attention to any poster who isn't a guide, and again quite frankly I'd only pay a little more to those that were!
The only person qualified to judge you are those considering hiring you. Your reputaion and networking as a painter should give you a good client base, and you could throw in a couple customs along with a days guiding. Make it a package. Good luck to you and I hope you do it. To hell with the naysayers! |
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Posts: 52
| And another thing...
I don't like the idea that you have to be some elite super muskie ninja to be a guide. Just be upfront in your marketing about your experience level and the size and number of fish you've caught. If someone decides they want you're services they've made an informed decision. I also don't like the idea that you have to match the market as far as pricing goes. Would it be logical for lexus to tell honda "hey, you can't price that civic at 12,000$, w're trying to make a living here" a little capitalism is always a good thing...... |
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Posts: 305
Location: Illinois | It sounds to me like you really want to give it a shot. Maybe you'll struggle. Maybe you will get better everytime out. I bet there are many guys out there who regret they never gave guiding a try. Don't be that guy. At least you'll know. I wish you good luck.
Esox Junkie wrote:
"As for other guides, I am not a fan of them as guides. As people they may be great, but I think it is exploiting and ruining several of the good lakes out there, for personal gain. (financial) There really can not be any other motivation to guide then the money, and if one is given it is sugar coating in my opinion. Do you really enjoy taking people out, fixing messes, backlashes, untangling lines, answering a gazzilion questions? i doubt it. If you do, take out kids...and teach them for free. What it boils down to is the dollar. "
Maybe you should take into account the type of pressure the guides put on a lake. Look at a guy like Mike Hulbert, who catches and RELEASES muskies everyday. How many people has he and others introduced to the sport by teaching catch and release? I would rather have new members exposed to a guides version of musky fishing than just doing it on thier own and wondering what to do with that 38 inch fish. A guide teaches more than spots. A guide teachers proper release methods, proper tools, proper line and equipment. I would venture to say that guides are responsible for a great many musky anglers fishing properly. That is not ruining and exploiting but in fact a form of conservation imo.
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | I agree with Losers (even though I hate pugs). Takes a lot of guts to put yourself on a limb like this. Get the license, charge what you want, and make a go of it. If you get no takers change your tactics, get more experience, find a marketable niche.
You'll never know if you don't get off the couch. I bought a guide trip on Ebay two years ago for $65 and everyone laughed. I got there and the equipment was junk, the boat leaked....but I put my first 40" in the boat that day.
Shane |
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| since you already have a "public" face (online, etc.) you should be prepared to have lots of people having opinions about you based on very little information. people who have never fished with you, never met you in person, etc. will have and share opinions about whether or not you're qualified to be a guide. take it for what it's worth.
it sounds as if you've already made up your mind on this, and are looking more for encouragement from people and answers to some details, than a strict answer on whether or not you should be a guide.
ok, so be a guide.
be prepared to struggle filling your guide book until your word-of-mouth reputation outreaches your online reputation. if you give clients what they hope for, they'll refer other people to you. you can't replace a recommendation from a former client...so start building a reference network. as mentioned already, this may require you to charge pretty low rates to entice people into hiring you initially.
imho, many of the best guides never discuss their prowess, fish in the boat, etc. online or anywhere else. they're too smart to bother getting into defending themselves or comparing themselves to others because they know it's unproductive. they don't have to talk themselves up because other people do that magic for them. "hey look at me, i'm good" actually turns many people off, whereas, "you should fish with John Doe" really appeals to people.
and if you want to guide a lot? my advice is to be extremely careful about what you say on the 'net. be careful about the way in which you present your public face. for guides their image/reputation is their livelihood and a few cross or foolish words can ruin that in a heartbeat. think about image. is "Priaprism" the best name for your boat? these details matter to potential clients. someone who comes off as a goofball does not inspire people to give him money.
you're a valued member of the MuskieFirst family, and personally i value having you around here, but from the business end of things? familiarity breeds contempt...everyone thinks they know everyone else online and forms those unfounded (often negative) opinions.
good luck!
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Posts: 2089
| I've been following this one for a few days. Lots of good information. The question I kept asking myself is summed up in a word. Why? Do the old "Ben Franklin Close". List the pro's and con's. List the financial ramifications.If you do decide to go for it, do lots of due diligence. Go to shows and talk to people. Lots of people. Ya gotta be a little PC or forget it. I was fortunate to have learned a ton from some of the best in the biz, and ironically it wasn't "fishing " stuff I learned."When the phone rings , answer it". Business doesn't wait. How deep do you wanna go?Put a plan together, and WRITE IT DOWN!!!!!!! Write down your goals. A book could be written on this subject. It's The Dream. Fish every day and get paid for it. If it were only that easy. Here's a scenario for ya, happened to a guy I know last season.He has some equipment issues earlier in the month and the budget gets whacked to fix things.Fast forward to the end of the month when a client has to cancel 3 days due to his wife being in the hospital.$1000 poof gone. Oh yeah, the house payment is due Monday. I think you get the picture. So much left to write, but Super Tawni is paging me to the couch.I'll get some more stuff up later. Steve |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | First off, Thanx to Even and Shane for the kind words, and the encouragement, as well as the nice things said about me by Lambeau.
Is Priapism the best name for my boat? I can only offer that it is the only word in the english language that describes the feeling i get when I look at it. Should I ever get a Tuffy, I'll be at a loss. lol.
My mind was not, or still not made up. I ended the title of the thread with "questions for established guides". Alot of great input was provided by guides, as well as those who do not. I even got a few e-mails from guides and non guides offering advice, which is awesome.
I have never really been a bragger on the boards. I have offered advice, voiced my opinions (sometimes rather abruptly), but have never been a "I've caught more fish than anyone ever" sort of guy.
I am not shrugging the controversy, because I made a few enemies here (I really should not have made some of the posts that I did in the past, especialy when drinking whiskey, lol). No one here will ever do to me what has not already been done to me before I found this board.
The only guy I had a real grudge against here was Ranger, and we are cool now.
With that having been said, here is my public apology to anyone I have wronged through my words.
Anyway, if I make a go at it and fail big time, it was only going to be additional income, and not being able to share what I love with others. I'll be out the guide's license fee, and the extra insurance for that year.
But, if it works out, I'll get to give folks the benefit of my knowledge (which is huge for me) and have a couple of bucks that I didn't before. I still have not made up my mind, but, I still have the mentality that I did when I was younger. The more people say I can't, or shouldn't, it only makes me want to do it all the more and prove them wrong! |
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Posts: 157
Location: Wausau/Phillips WI | I'd say follow my Grandpas sage old wisdom. He told me that he'd rather hear me tell him stories about what I had done than what I wish I had done. Sounds like you've got the itch to do it so go ahead.
Maybe change your boat name. Market yourself as a guide that will teach people how to fish until you get a reputation for putting fish in the boat. I'm sure there's people out there looking to learn the ropes but don't want to spend a couple of hundred dollars, but would hire a guide (teacher) for a more reasonable amount. Raise your fees as your client base and reputation grows.
I never officially guided but years ago when I fished heavily in Vilas County I kept getting asked to take friends of my parents out on differant lakes. I probably took out about 30 over about a 4 year period. Most were really inexperienced and just wanted to catch their first muskie or only have a follow. A few were really good muskie guys that wanted to learn some of the lakes I fished a little better. These experienced guys I really enjoyed in that they learned from me but more importantly I learned some stuff from them too and we had some real success.
What made me stop was when I took a husband and wife out for an afternoon trip from 1 to 5. At 1:45 the wife had to go to the bathroom so I got out the TP and headed for shore. She refused to go in the woods and this is a lake with no cottages or resorts. Her husband insisted I pull over to the landing and take her to a Bar 4 miles away. I tied my boat to a tree and locked up my tackle and we jumped in my truck to make what I thought would be a 15 minute run. BIG MISTAKE! We got to the Bar, she headed to the can, he ordered drinks. Then she ordered some more. Then some more. I couldn't get them to leave so at 4:00 I left them there and went and got my boat. I got back there at 4:45 and tried to get them to leave and finally at 8 pm I gave up and went to my parents place. At 1 AM they called for a ride and I hung up the phone.
Good luck!
Buddy |
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Posts: 117
Location: Northwest Wisconsin | Life is too short, you only get one shot at it. If you have the dream and desire to pursue guiding, by all means give it a try. If it works out, great. If not, at least you tried. When you are on your death bed looking back on your life at least you won't have any regrets about it. I say go for it and best of luck! |
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | Do it |
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| I think I heard that Joe Bucher's father told him not to be a Guide because he wouldn't make it!
The rest is History. |
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| You can get your money's worth and then some on TEN fishless muskie days with a good guide on certain water. You'll learn his spots, why he or she does what they do, see the right gear to use and learn a lot about fishing for muskies in general. It's all entirely relative to the type of water. You pay a guy three hundred dollars to walk you around a stocked lake that's measured in acres and he can't get it done, that's one thing. You hire a guy on a huge, complex, potentially dangerous patch of trophy water where densities are low and timing, spots, safe navigation and other tougher nuts to crack are in the mix, that's totally different. Establishing client expectations+goals at the outset is important. Some lakes out there anyone can be a musky ninja on (too funny ha ha!) others, you're investing $$ in a lot more than simnply setting the hook in someone else's boat on someone else's spot. The point about the hunt is also very well taken. Never used a guide, never had any remote desire to. I'll try and find them, I'll try and figure it out. I have no problem with my learning curve the way it is. Success is that much sweeter when it happens, and I lose nothing when I strike out. Maybe a bit of boat gas. Paying to fish another guy's spots??!! I'll pass. In no way am I saying that guiding's bad or people who fish with guides are bad. Different strokes, different folks is all. I hope you get up and running well if you decide to take the plunge, muskynightmare. Great thread from all the contributors, many good angles. |
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | To be honest some people just rent the "BOAT" not the guide........If you don't have a boat it is worth spending some $$$ to get on the water if you do not have buddies with a boat.... |
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Posts: 350
Location: WESTERN WI | Why not?
Anyone who has made a lot of mistakes, in a very specific line of work is considered an expert in their field. We have times in our lives were we put ourselves in a vulnerable position. When we do that, regardless of the outcome you come away being a stronger individual. To date some of my greatest acheivements in my life thus far, (professional and personal) have come when I stuck myself into the line of fire. More often than not the reward was reaped. There is a lot than can be offered to this sport as a guide, and I feel your arsenal would generate guiding business for you. I think you already know what you would like to do Rob and I commend you. As gtaggart mentioned, the worst emotion to live with is regret. Good Luck!
"There are risks and costs to a program of action, but they are far less than the long-range risks and costs of comfortable inaction.” – John F. Kennedy
Edited by Got Esox? 4/12/2007 9:00 AM
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Posts: 5874
| I've been sitting here reading this thread, and I have a few observations.
To esux angler, I totally disagree with your union perspective, and controlling guide fees based on some subjective standard. If Rob decides to start guiding, his fee will be what the market will bear. That could be $100 or $400 per day. It will all depend on how busy he will be.
As for having an appreticeship program to lead to a journeyman guide status? Well, let me just say that my house was wired by a union contractor. They used the absolute cheapest materials, took longer to do it, and the work is subpar. Journeyman status doesn't mean quality. I wish my GC had used an independant, like the other trades he used.
As for those who have determined that Rob is not qualified? You base that on what? His posts on here? The fact that he has somewhat objectionable name on his boat? That because he only caught 4 fish or whatever last year? I don't know Rob that well, but I probably know him better than most commenting here. Here is what I do know. He's a genuine guy, that would do anything he could to help a person out. He has a passion for fishing, and appears to love kids and showing how to do things. I don't have a clue how he is in the boat, or if he knows anything about guiding for muskies, or walleyes. But what does it matter?
If Rob wants to start up a guide practice, I say go for it. As mentioned, don't be one of those that wished he had tried something. He will either be successful, or not. He will grow his business on his abilities to teach, his personality, and then his success on putting clients on fish. His reputation will spread by word of mouth, like most guides, more than on how many fish he catches. There is more to guiding than catching fish.
As for how busy he will be? I remember when Capt Extreme began guiding. He wasn't real busy, and didn't charge what I thought was enough. He gave away free trips if a client didn't score. He beat himself up about this, but he endeavorred to perservere. In a short couple of years, his schedule got busier and busier, he was able to charge a fair(to him, and his clients) price, and he has a very successful guiding practice today. It's hard to get out just to fish with him anymore! Through it all, he never lost faith in his abilities, learned his home water better than anybody, improved his boatside manner, and now, his clients pretty much all say great things about him.
So this is why I say go for it Rob. You'll either slowly build your guide practice up, or you won't. It all in your hands, for the most part. Do the little things you talk about, be personable, and learn as you go. No guide ever started out knowing everything. If you're smart, you'll learn as you go, you'll improve, word will get out, and you'll be OK. Or not. But either way, you'll never say I wish I would have tried this.
Good luck.
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