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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | The MN DNR has always held that a "penned" fish waiting for a judgeboat counts as possession under the 40" regulation and I would assume the ruling would be the same when it goes to 48". That is why you can't register a sub 40" fish in ANY tournament in MN.
That's the DNR's view as has been stated to me by various people in the St.Paul office. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I must have missed a post that got edited or deleted that was apparently bashing the MN DNR about the 48" thing. The MMA and Muskies Inc Chapters in MN PUSHED the MN DNR for a 48" min on many of our lakes. We have seen an increase pressure (both instate and out) as well as an increase in fish getting thumped. Many of us wanted a higher limit, but were told that the 48 would pass easier and could be a stepping stone for another increase down the way. Will adjustments in tournament formats have to be made? You bet! Even our MI tournament is going to have to change some things to comply. I don't think anyone will mind if it makes the resourse better in the long run.
The MMA and DNR didn't do this because they're against tournaments. From what I've gathered, neither organization cares much either way if tournaments exist or not. Nor are there any pro tournament XYZ and anti tournament 123. What these people are for is protecting and improving the MN muskie resource. If you can't get behind that then what are you really for?
Edited by Muskie Treats 12/26/2006 12:30 PM
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Posts: 172
| Sorry Jason, but I don't agree. Here is your catch ratio per boat for the 2006 PMTT.
Eagle River 39%
Fox Chain 22%
Cave Run 15%
Vermillion 13%
Petenwell 12%
Per boat the Fox Chain gave up the 2nd most fish in one of the toughest months there is to fish it. Yea, I know we can get into a conditions battle, but congrats to the guys who caught fish on the Fox Chain. |
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| Could someone help me out with this. Seeing that I have fished in some local tournaments and nothing major, I do understand some laws and why they were created.
Size and creel limits were/are set by the DNR office to allow for the safe "HARVEST" of that fish to not hurt the population and help support a balanced and healthy fishery.
The "possession" laws were put into effect to, for the most part, eliminate culling and transporting of fish.
If I am not mistaken, judgeboat tournaments do neither. Why would someone have a problem with a fish at any length, being measure in a judgeboat format? Don't you have to measure it to know it's undersized. Aren't they basically doing the same thing, but just having someone else measure it for them. Is it against the law to have someone else measure a fish for you? Heck, I don't even think the judge measures it, that they are just there for verification. If you are saying that keeping the fish in a net at boatside is reducing it to possession, then again refer back to why the possession law/definition was put into place.
Wouldn't you rather have these organizations working for/with you on larger size limits instead of battling with them. If I am not mistaken (but I may be), the other places that the PMTT has held events in the last few years; Chippewa Flowage, Shelbyville, Petenwell, Chautauqua, Pomme de Terre, Madison, Fox Chain,etc have not made special changes for them. Because they are not keeping or transporting a fish and you do not know it is undersized until it is measured. Why were they able to do this in other locations but Minnesota will not allow this?
I for one would rather have no organizations fighting against anything that would make any fishery better. I would think fish being mis-handled by the everyday Joe's that accidentally catch them or the beginners mishandling them would be of much greater concern then some fish being kept in the water in a net for a few extra minutes.
I just don't see the big deal.
Tom Lejack |
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Posts: 3163
| Ive had a Minn dnr rep 'twice' tell me that tournaments would have to adhere to the 48' minnimum in fact the last time they told me was less then two weeks ago and their was a very well known tournament angler standing right next to me hearing it too...like I said it would be intresting to hear if the pmtt has gotten any clarification on this and what kind of formats will be allowed if any?????
Edited by happy hooker 12/26/2006 2:55 PM
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Location: Watertown, MN | I was there when Hooker was talking to the DNR, and it was their interpetation the fish under 48" would not be allowed to be measured. That was his interpetation of the law. So it is up to them to make the ruling, we are just looking for the final ruling from the State of MNDR on this law. I don't think anyone has an issue with the PMTT judgeboat format just how they will rule on the new 48" limit and it impact on events.
Backlash, interesting numbers but to say the Fox kicked out the 2nd most fish is a big overstatement is comparing apples to oranges. Take Weather conditions of each event into consideration, and size limits.
Cave- 19 fish 130 anglers--3 over 40", 6 under 34"--Weather severe coldfront, post tornado, freezing rain, temp drop 30+ degrees, my bowmount was frozen in the bracket
Petenwell- 13 fish 113 anglers-- 4 over 40", how many 30-34" that could not be registered, Major cold front, Lowest Barometric pressure reading in the Month of May in the History of WI
Eagle--54 fish 140 anglers, atleast 7 over 40", how many 30-34", severe storms kept most of the water the first hour
Vermillion--15 fish 120 anglers, 14 over 40", 1 over 50", how many caught release from 30-40", cold front, high winds
Fox- 11 fish 50 anglers(The TOP 50 of the Trail), 3 over 40", 2 under 34", first event with stable weather, yes toghter time of the year
The big thing about the Fox that was mentioned above, is the lack of structure, very boring lake to fish, crowded with only 50 boat, put another 75 and it will be like 10 boats trying to fish a swimming pool. I am guessing the lake in the early season will fish smaller than late fall, with the lack of open water trolling going on(not sure, just a guess). Just my opinion that it is not a great choice for event this size, I like to see the field a little more spread out, and room to fish. For the 2 days of the event you were always fish with atleast 2 boats in casting distance of you. Where the winning team caught fish, had 10-20 boats fighting for the same spot, now add 75 more boats. Plus there were not event boats out there, and I would suspect in the spring you will see more non-event angler, due to warmer weather, also WI not being open.
Troyz
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Posts: 172
| Troy,
We could go back and forth on this for a while. The Fox Chain only had one fish under 34 inches in post turn over. (Kevin Nash) I agree, not a real pretty place to fish. Ratio of over 40 inches was as strong as 75% of the 2006 events. Spring conditions will be different and a lot of anglers who know the Chain will go south and yes it still will be tight, but no more then 75% of the field on Catfish in Eagle River or Lithia Bay in Shelbyville. Spring will bring a lot more options. Weeds, breaks and open water. As I said before, not a great place for the Championship, but it will turn some numbers and some size for the opener. Our spring club tournament has alwas had some very nice fish caught. Don't get me wrong, it's not Tonka, but we can't fish there in the spring. |
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Posts: 172
| My mistake...2 fish under 34 |
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| So, let me get this straight. The contestant/judge measures a fish and it is not 48", you cannot count this? The fish was measured and it is over 48" and this counts. Besides size, what is the difference here an out, besides jotting some info/details down on paper after the release? I don't get it.
Tom |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Tommy, bring it up with the DNR as nobody here has the power to do anything about it. I think their answer is that they expect that most anglers know if that fish is legal before the judge is called over.
If you look at any of the walleye tournaments in MN you'll see that they all have to abide by the slot limits as well and it's on them if the fish doesn't measure. In fact in the PWT, if you bring in a fish out of the slot I think you get DQ'd and a citation is written.
Edited by Muskie Treats 12/26/2006 3:57 PM
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Location: N Illinois | I wont debate whether the dnr interpretation is right or wrong. I personlly dont care. I have a hypothetical question. The way I interpret this blog, is if a fish is under the legal size limit, it is considered possesion if one measures a fish. So if I am on my yearly vacation to minnesota, and i catch lets say a 38 incher ( I know, there arent any this small in minnesota) and it's obvious that this fish is not 48 inches. If I net this fish and measure it that would be possesion. That is how i am interpreting this. The rule must apply to all, not just someone fishing a tournament. Lac Seul is mentioned. That lake is total release. With the same mentality, any fish netted and or measured should be considered in possesion and deemed illegal. Just my 2cents worth. |
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| I have fished lac seul 4 times and we always net, measure and take pictures of the fish and I have never once thought of that as somehow being in violation of the C&R law?
I wouldn't think measuring a fish then letting it go would be interpreted as somehow in my possesion? maybe not? anyone know for sure? |
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Location: Watertown, MN | Musky99
Possesion is not netting, photo release. they are considering it possesion I believe when a boat has the fish in the net, and the angler is calling and waiting for a judgeboat. The fact that the angler is not immeadiately releasing the fish, and holding it in their possesion, this were the DNR consider it possesion. Like shawn said this was interpetation from DNR to us, and we are waiting to see what the decision has been made.
Troyz |
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| If judge boat tourneys get an exception on the 48' Im wondering why didnt they go for it first time around on the 40' and try to get sub 40' fish to qualify like in other states |
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| I applauded the MN DNR for being progressive in terms of less fish handling and it gets deleted! You guys are funny! LOL |
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| With regards to the posession issue I think that Troy is about the fish being in posession while in a net awaiting a judge boat. The obvious solution to this is require the pictures on a bump board like the Hartman tournaments do. This is fast, efficient and very reliable.
Mark |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Cfollow,
You said more than just that. As with any subject here at MuskieFIRST, no personal bashing, no rude or overtly aggressive commentary, etc. will be published. If you wish to applaud the MNDNR, please do! |
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| Might as well hold every muskie tournament in Minnesota...  |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Guest hit it....it's not that every fish that hits a net is in possession, it's holding (penning) the fish to wait for a judge boat that constitutes possession. I too see nothing wrong with the MDNR's regs if that's the case. My question to the PMTT is this. Why isn't 2 fish a day good enough to determine a winning team? |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | I'm not looking forward to being CROWDED on the fox chain again in 2007, and that is whats going to happen.... 125 boats in such a small area can't be good.
Cave Run in oct. isn't a bad place to be unless you live in MN.
Madison Chain I've never fished but sounds like alot like Tonka with out the bigger fish.
Cass Lake, well its Cass and WILL crank out the bigger fish of the trail.....
As usual it will be a challenge and a great time for sure, later
Jerome |
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Location: Rhinelander. | Is there a law that says I cannot a measure a fish I catch unless its 48 inches on this lake? NO!!!!!! I can measure any fish I catch as long as I don't take poss. of it if its under 48. I don't think any d.n.r. can stop you from measureing a fish> they may not give you a permitt again if you ran a tournament against what they would like to see.
I don't think puting a ruler to these fish in the tournament has much of a bad impact on the fishery at all.
The d.n.r in wisconsin and minnesota need to wake up and realize the muskie clubs and anglers are doing their job for them> We raise hundreds of thousands dollars for stocking and lake improvements. Most tournament anglers belong to a club> If they they get enough of these anglers and clubs upset with them they could certainly lose that support. In wisconsin with the d.nr wanting to collect tournament fees from anglers they have gotten close. The d.n.r in both states is darn good at shooting themselves in the foot!!!!!!!!!
Pfeiff
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Posts: 1636
| Gander Mt Guide - 12/27/2006 3:27 PM
Why isn't 2 fish a day good enough to determine a winning team?
I understand after a team catches there two fish in Wisconsin they are done fishing the rest of the tournament... correct?
If so... say a team is on the water for a total of 20 minutes and already boat two fish. They have to quit...? They have time to put more fish in the boat. Instead, they have to sit back and watch two other guys win it by putting two bigger fish in the boat with 20 minutes left in the tournament.
A lot of people say a muskie is a muskie... so how much better is a 44 incher than a 42 incher? I think the number of fish is just as good as how long the fish are.
Time to sleep now... forever. Then wake and and go fishing!  |
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| Looks like kill tournaments are the only option in Minnesota! They are still legal. |
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The new law doesn't prevent you from measuring fish, just keeping it in your possesion until a judge boat comes.
Perhaps the digital formats will be the way to go in this case. Hartman has used them with great success.
Don, you hit the nail on the head. If you don't like tournies, don't fish them. If it bothers you that you can't register a sub-48" fish in a tourney, than don't fish it.
It was a great victory to get these size limits increased. Tournaments will just have to adjust, or go somewhere else.
Besides, why not have a 48" minimum tourney, it just makes it tougher.
Maybe some people don't want the challenge!
JS |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Funny how the only people complaining about MN's new reg's are people that don't live in MN. Hmmmmmmm........ |
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Location: Watertown, MN | Reelwise,
You can register more that 2 fish in WI, unless it is a transport tournament like the WMT. WI rule consider it possesion when you place a fish in the livewell and transport it to the registration station. PMTT winners on Eagle had 6 fish.
Don
Like John said the law does not stop you from measuring fish. But in MN, holding a fish in the net waiting for a judgeboat is considered possession under current laws or interpatation of it, They make the rules we must follow. The DNR is not worried about events coming to MN, the money that comes into the areas has very little impact on improving the local fishery. The MN chapters are all for the higher size limits to keep the fishery in current state, we do not want to see overharvest, and see a decline in our fishery. 300-500 anglers participate in the PMTT each year, in the Twin Cities chapter we have almost twice the membership. Based on the our member that fish the trail, less than 1% participate, so not a huge influence when you look at it that way.
Troyz |
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Posts: 3163
| Has anybody thought about the positives,,if the 48' means that tourneys have to switch from Judege boats to digital think how much money will be saved by not hiring Judgeboats,,you could spread that money out over the contestants payouts or a contribution to the local resource or a combo.somebody better mastermind something because size limits are not gonna go down but up,,I can see a push for 54' on the big lakes in the future |
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| Digital?
I want to believe it can be run in such a way where it's not possible to cheat, but considering the payouts, someone will find a way.
I think most are glad to see the 48" size limit passed, but it still presents a lot of challenges when it comes to tournaments. The PMTT is either going to have to change the way they structure their tournaments, or the DNR is going to have to make some exception in what constitutes "posession" for judge boat tournaments.
Somebody has to bend on this one, or MN will have to be somewhere you don't have the PMTT. How do you calculate standings, or structure payouts when there are only 2 legal fish caught? Or no legal fish caught at all?
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| The issue of whether or not a fish suffers in the net waiting for a judge boat verses if the fish is suffering being taken out mearsured and photographed has been beaten to death. But I fail to see this vast difference between to two formats. If 48" is the minimum how can you verify it?? The Hartman Metro format seems to be the worst format anywhere. Since you have to get another boat to verify the length. How do you do that if there is not a boat in shouting distance?? Many contestants transport the fish to the closest boat or call someone they know is on the lake and have them run over and verify the fish.
Isn't that the worst possible format?? Won't that be Illegal in 2007. They also have a catagory for fish under 40"'s, isn't that illegal?? These contestants are measuring fish under 40"s and photographing.
It just amazes me how one format is a fish killer, and a photo tournament is just fine. especially when the photo tournament does not verify that the fish survived.
I say get rid of all the tournaments. This thread has proven that tournaments do nothing but hurt the resource, the money contributed in so small that nobody needs it, and it brings additional preasure to already over crowded waters. Camera, judgeboat, honesty rules, it's all doing nothing but hurting the resource so get rid of all of them.
If you have camera tournaments every year instead of judgeboat tournaments, what difference will you see on the water??
If anything, you will have more tournaments because the main reason the PMTT does not visit Mille Lacs, and Leech is because of the possible waves conditions that judge boats would have to battle. If a camera tournament is OK by MN DNR standards, It opens up everything!
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| Troyz. - 12/28/2006 9:43 AM
Reelwise,
You can register more that 2 fish in WI, unless it is a transport tournament like the WMT. WI rule consider it possesion when you place a fish in the livewell and transport it to the registration station. PMTT winners on Eagle had 6 fish.
I figured thats what GMG was pointing towards, the WMT tournaments. |
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