|
|
| They all count for me. If they ever quit counting I quit fishing. |
|
| |
|
| Pikespawn,
If the answer to the question was "No, they don't count..." I would have not been able to count the first 16 muskies I ever caught. Because I didn't have the knowledge, equipment, BOAT, etc., I decided to turn up the learning curve in my favor....QUICKLY ! ! IMHO, one of the greatest muskie fishermen to ever live, now owns a large fishing resort in Canada. I would book him 8-12 days per year, in my first two years of muskmie fishing, and at least that for the next 6 until we bought AML....this depended on my vacation schedule, and his availability. I needed to learn about these massive, toothy critters quickly. Having been born and raised in Southern California, I was accustomed to fishing....I was fishing large party boats for tuna, yellowtail, bonita, mackeral, and anything else that swam, by the time I was 5. I feel like I was, at the age of 19, a fairly accomplished fisherman....but not in the ways of the muskie. I had been fishing Monona, in Madison Wisconsin for bass, when this LONG, UGLY, spotted beast attacked my spinnerbait at the Law Park dock...I was hooked, even though the fish swam away, unscathed, and unharmed....good thing my heart was strong, or I'd have had a heart attack it happened so fast!!!
So, after learning some important stuff from Herbie, it became about location, location, location!! I learned that the techniques I'd learned from Herbie, coupled with some good spots, I was going to produce some fish. I was taken under their wings by Kevin Wegner, Gerard Hellenbrand, and a slew of others in the Cap City chapter of Muskies Inc. Did I catch fish with these guys? Of course! Did they count any more because these guys weren't being paid? I think not! Am I glad I spent $2,000-3,000 with a guide for a couple of years before I bought a boat, and started truly going for Mr. BIG?? You betcha!! When I caught a 53"er, with a 26.75" girth, back in 1994, when Herbie & I were running AML for our first season, did it count?? I didn't pay him anything, because he was my partner. and we had a day off. What is the difference? He was still the muskie fishing guru....but he was now my partner, friend, & GUIDE!!
Now, if the guide hooks the fish, hands it off to YOU, and you reel it in....you will have *** all the way! You were with a guide who hooked a fish, and handed HIS fish over to you. Same thing with trolling....first of all, DON'T set the hook....set the drag correctly!! (Just MHO! ;-)), lIf he grabs the rod out of the holder, ays back on the rod, and holds the rod for a short time, this may not make for a catch that could/should count, especially if it is your PB.
So, now that I've rambled for way too long, hope this makes sense Pikespawn....great question!!
Donnie  :-) |
|
| |
|
Posts: 331
Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Guide or friend, if someone shows you a lake and how they fish it, if you catch a fish you catch a fish. I know some lakes better than my buddies and they know certain lakes better than me. If I fish with a buddy on a new lake in order to learn it or I hire a guide to learn the lake, what’s the difference? Think about it? Really what you are saying is that unless you yourself learn a lake any musky you catch from a lake that someone showed you, guide or not wouldn’t count. What does money have to do with it?? A guide or friend that shows you a specific technique or lake is all about learning and catching fish means you have accomplished something you set out to do.
Ed
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Donnie and ED,
Great posts. Maybe its the culture each of us is brought up in. Not alot of guides in Penna.
Maybe when two people are in a boat, someone is being guided. I never really looked at it like that, but maybe. I also always thought that fishing or sharing information with a good friend WAS different, maybe it IS NOT. I don't know.
The only thing i do know, is that if i caught a monster muskie with a guide, it would diminish the accomplishment for me because i didn't do everything. This is just me. Would i have fun, yes,
do i like catching big fish, yes, would i learn a heck of alot, yes...
Now, I also do not care what others do. I am not Judging anyone. This is just a question that i have heard a million guys talk about, and i thought that i would throw it out there. Great Discussion. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 568
| Pikespawn --think a better way to phrase the question would be to ask "is it more satisfying and should you take more pride in a non guided fish VS guided " Of course it counts , it's not like it did'nt happen, if you bag a big one while on a guide trip there is no "taking it away" ? Alot of people seem to think (from their responses) that you are suggesting it really does'nt count , like never happened ? If I ever make it up to the Ottawa or Niagra I'll hire a guide , have to , don't have the time to learn the waters , maybe very well a one time deal, if on that trip I bag a PB I'll be happy as heck BUT that fish will always have an asterisk for me, B/c I did'nt do it myself. Good Thread MD |
|
| |
|
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Dan,
You are right, "Count" was probably a bad choice of words.
Gentlemen, Please refer to MD's above post for definition of "count"
|
|
| |
|
| Pikespawn,
This is the beauty of muskie fishing....there are lots of answers, not just "specific" answers. The reason for this board, is to show different views or aspects of the AWESOME sport of muskie fishing.
With that said, I'll make another point....so you realize I've had a large number of 50+" fish in my boat since 2000? Not many people know that. Do you know I can't guide in Canada, because it's against the law? I fish with a number of close friends year in and year out up on Eagle. I'm not gonna be the one to tell the recipients of my hard work, their hard work, showing people big fish, catching BIG fish, that they can't count them...this is somewhat an odd sense isn't it??
Secondly, what it seems you're implying, is that the only way you can count ALL of the fish YOU catch, is to fish alone. Are you gonna allow the guy in the "back of the boat" (of which I only fish out of the back...can't figure out how to run my boat from the front) to count his fish, or not, because YOU'RE running the boat? It is nice to see all of your hard work come together, and boat a nice fish or two. It is neat to see how you're information gathering has turned into a great day for EVERYONE ! ! So, think about counting ALL of the fish you catch, whether guided or fished with by someone else. It would be somewhat close-kinded not to count them...if you didn't, I think you'd be robbing yourself of some nice catches with guides.
It is OK to change your thoughts after reading much of what others have to say. LOL....just kiddin'!! I hope you understand my thoughts surrounding "counting" fish you catch while running the boat, versus "not" running the boat!!
Donnie  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Donnie,
I see your point loud and clear! See ManitouDans post. "Counting" was probably (was) a poor choice of words. "personal satisfaction", "sense of accomplishment" maybe better.
You hanging out fishing with your circle of friends (muskie addicts / accomplished anglers) is not really what i was discussing.
ManitouDan, (who i don't know), "gets" what i'm trying to talk about, "discuss".
Donnie, if i go to Canada with my group of friends and catch a 40#er, it would be different (to me) than if i went to Canada and hired Richard Collins or Mike Lazarus (2 great guides) and caught one......... Thats all i'm saying. PS |
|
| |
|
| EXACTLY...well put...what about your friend who caught his biggest fish ever, out of YOUR boat?? I was playing Devil's advocate in this scenario, although I'd never be an advocate of that poor ba$tard.
Yes, both GREAT guides!! And I knew exactly what you were saying from the getgo. Thanks for starting an awesome post!!
Donnie |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2076
| Andrew,
Get a guide! no better yet get 3 or 4 different ones! This sport isn't cheap it will be the best $1200 you ever spent.... ask questions, learn seasonal patterns, and on and on... Learning curve will be shortened like you cant believe! No substitue for time on the water..... so if you fish with 3 guys that have a combined 30 years on the water well hopefully you getting my point,..... then go out and apply what you have learned!.......Pikiespawn how many guides have you hired?? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 331
Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Pikespawn,
This is a good topic and often on these boards people ask questions in an attempt to confirm a theory or opinion they might have. Sometimes people have a tendency to take an opinion and turn it into a personal attack. Glad that this post has remained nice. With this type of discussion it’s hard to say who is right or wrong but we can at least learn to appreciate each other’s views. I think you should feel good about counting any fish you boat with a guide. I say this because I have hired guides in the past and have caught fish with them. I hired guides because it shortened the learning curve on a specific body of water I wanted to learn. I also have hired guides because I wanted to see how they “fish” in comparison to how I fish. I learned that all musky fishermen have something to learn from each other. I have found that there is not much of a difference between a guide and an accomplished fisherman. I will say that a guide will typically know the specific patterns on the lake your going to fish because they have been actively fishing that body of water. I will say that the biggest complaint that a guide has about clients is their inability to cast properly or how they fail to convert on hot fish. But if you hire a guide and you’re an accomplished angler who catches a fair amount of fish, why feel less about any fish you boat? Just because someone is a “guide” doesn’t mean they are a better angler. I think there is a point in our learning progression as musky anglers where we realize that we are on common ground with guides. We have paid our dues and have caught our fair share of fish. When we venture to a new body of water we sometimes hire a guide to accelerate the learning curve because we might have limited time to fish that body of water. No shame in that fact, and no shame in catching a fish when fishing with the guide. Often time’s guides have asked me questions on my technique and they learn something new from me. We have so much to learn from one another and there is so much we can learn from one another. In the process of learning we catch fish whether it’s with a guide or a buddy, be proud of any fish you catch! Remember that there are no guides that can guarantee you a 50-inch fish! If a guide shows you a big fish spot on a lake but you do not catch a fish with him and then return there a week later by yourself and boat a 50-inch fish, do you give the credit to the guide or yourself? It’s almost like saying that any spot that you catch a fish on but was shown to you by a guide, the fish should not be counted. Kind of silly if you think about it?
I hope your season is going well and the best is yet to come!
Ed
|
|
| |
|
| Musky fishing is a "team sport". I've been at it long enough to know that sometimes there's no ryhme or reason as to which lure a Musky will decide to hit. When someone in the boat gets a fish, it's a "victory" for everyone in the boat.
Hiring a guide makes sense on new waters, big waters, or for people who only have limited time (like one week of vacation) and want to maximize their time by being "on the pattern/spots" instantly. |
|
| |
|
| The goal is to catch muskies, and it is enjoyable to catch muskies alone, fishing with family, fishing with friends, or fishing with guides.
The more you have to do with the catch the better in terms of personal satisfaction |
|
| |
|
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Thanks Ed, the best to you also!! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 194
| This is a great topic. It's something I've had to define for myself over the last 3 years I've dedicated my fishing time to Muskies. I fish with Scott Kieper every September in the Hayward area. Great guide, even better guy. I have learned a ton from him. Much of what he taught me has shaped how I fish today. First time out with him 3 years ago, "We" caught 6 fish. One I hooked myself casting. I definately count that fish AND take great satisfaction from doing so. It was 39". Next, my regular fishing partner got one on a sucker (30"), then me on a sucker (41 1/2") then him on a sucker (36"). All of the sucker bites were set and handed over by Scott. Two others came that Scott hooked on lures. I reeled in one(43") and my friend reeled in the other(37 1/2"). The two fish I caught that were "Handed" off definately count as numbers in my book. I still had to fight them right. I hear all the time from Guides how this client lost this or that fish by screwing up like this or that. However here's where I draw the line. these hand-offs were both bigger then any other fish I have caught before or since. I don't call either one a PB. That's just me. The next season there were 3 fish put in the boat, but the rules had changed. We, as clients, did not want any hand-offs. We also wanted to learn the ins and outs of Sucker fishing. We either set the hooks ourselves, or Scott reeled in his own fish. We didn't break any PB numbers fo size, but the fish we got on Suckers that day were more satisfying. This year we went Hawg Hunting and got skunked, but saw the biggest fish at boatside we'd ever seen and learned some new water. It was one of the best Muskie fishing days I've ever had. The reason I hire Scott is first he is a world-class guide, but more importantly, he has become a good friend and I "Like" fishing with him. BTW, I'm here to tell you there ARE big fish in WI. But back to the original topic as redefined later. I "Count" every fish I've ever brought to the boat. No matter who hooked it. I feel very "Satisfied" in doing so. I choose not to call the only 2 "Hand-offs" in my log as my PB even though they were both bigger fish then I have caught on my own. I think if someone casts to it, hooks it, fights it to the boat, has it netted, photgraphed and released(Hopefully). It doesn't matter who is driving you around the lake or how much you did or didn't pay them. You did everything you were supposed to do, under the circumstances. I don't feel like hiring a guide should take anything away from the experience or feeling of satisfaction. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Any fish counts in my book! Guide or no guide, fishing for them or not. A fish in the net is success!
Mike |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | Ok so you're fishing in your buddies boat and catch your personal best. I guess it doesn't count as it's like been guided.
What about catching your personal best on a spot and with a lure you were told to use, I guess that's like been guided as well even though you would be alone in the boat.
I'm a trophy muskie fishing guide, guys come from far away to fish with me to catch their personal best and most do. Sure the fact that we are fishing some of the best waters in the world and that I may just be good at finding the fish and knowing what gets them going ect ect. This does not mean the fish should not count, the guy still needs to cast, set the hook and reel that fish in or even when trolling he still needs to fight that fish and get her to the net.
There is no way that a guy's personal best should be disqualified because he was guided.
Maybe I'm just bious as I would be out of work if they didn't.  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Of all the fish that came to my clients in the past years I would bet that all of them are counted as fish they caught.
Trolling, casting, or live bait these fish all still have to caught and landed by the clients. If they loose it, is it the guides fault or the clients? I see the faces of these clients who catch these fish every day. Trust me they are very happy to score and learn the whys that go along with the fish they caught.
I had an elderly father that has never got a trophy by his standards. His health is bad and he hired me to run the boat and put him on a big fish. The weather took a turn for the worst and he couldn't cast because of his legs and back problems in rough water. Long story short I got him a 50 1/2-incher trolling. He was so proud and happy he got a trophy to put on his wall. The fish was released and a replaca was ordered. Now, should that fish not count?
Should he not be happy to have battled and caught this big fish. Yes, I put him on the fish but he caught it all the way. If he cant count it should I be able to count it as mine?
This brings up a new question: Should guides beable to count fish that clients catch whie trolling, hand offs casting, or sucker fish?
I see some guides that put up some huge numbers and they are booked every day. How can they register so many fish while working every day?
Every fish that a client touches is not a fish I can register. Muskies Inc rules I am talking about. Now I see plenty of guides that must count client fish. Should these count because the guide did the work or did the client?
Who caught the fish?
Guided or not, who's fish is it?
Clients all the way!!!
Thats my thought........
|
|
| |
|
| A most appropriate question dude...one would had to have missed his/her meds to find malice w/in the wording...at any rate, I too lean toward finding more satisfaction in doing a personal recon on catching or harvesting various forms of fish and game. I enjoy the strategy of locating quarry on land/lake/sea and then seeing how I fare from me observations; I've failed more times than I've succeeded, and the learning curve at times has been excruciating, but in the end, well worth the effort, regardless of the end results. I think guides are of the utmost importance, as they provide a much needed service for a vast variety of reasons, and enable folks to experience that which they seek in a safer more stable enviroment, giving them confidence when they strike out on their own. Only guides I've ever fished w/ are Crash/Justin Mullins and Charlie on Cave Run, and enjoyed every moment of each time, as I view catching an actual fish secondary to the overall experience. If I ever get to the point when the only satisfaction I get is from catching a fish or nailing a deer/turkey, then I'll get rid of me rods/guns and walk away from it...I'm friendly to all but "tight" w/ only a few, and value can't be placed on personal relationships w/ yer pals, as they can't be caught or bought...
I guess in summary, from a catch or kill perspective, I personally would feel more accomplishment in reaching me goal from personal experience, rather from being led or shown where to fish/hunt etc., but find nothing at all wrong w/ others whom chose guides to help them, especially in this fast paced world we call home; in fact, the safety factor alone is extremely important, whether it be fishing or hunting. The older I get, the more emphasis I place on memories and friends, and try to forget what could have been or should have been...in the end, I gotta be happy w/ what I did and how I treated others along the way... |
|
| |
|
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Richard,
I know you are a very talented musky fisherman. Your waters are the finest musky water that I have ever personally fished. I'm not advocating that anyones catch with you be disqualified.As I said before, "count" was a lousy choice of words. This boils down to each individuals sense of accomplishment. From reading these posts, this is an individual thing, and a complex thing. I apprecitate all the opinions on this subject. I also appreciate that this discussion has not turned ugly. That says alot for the fisherman on this forum. We all love musky fishing. We are all addicted, or we wouldn't be on this website. When someone has a different opinion than you do, it is easy to attack or make jokes of it. This certainly was not my intent. I have benefited from some of the other perceptions on this thread. (Steve, Donnie, and others). I feel it is important to think, as we all "think" on the water.
I wish everyone the best of luck this fall, and as someone else said " I hope the best is yet to come." PS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Sponge,
I couldn't of said it better than that......... That is exactly how i feel. You crushed it. |
|
| |
|
| Hence the reason I posted grasshopper; though me eyes be nigh sightless and milky white, one must still be able to snatch the sucker from the palm of the hand before leaving the temple...now fetch me a bowl of rice... To truly understand the content of any post and the following responses, one must print the wording, run the printed material through a shredder, then piece the paper puzzle back together, blind folded and sitting on a reed mat; complete comprehension soon follows and the mind expands, much like the belly of a stray cat that happens upon a saucer of milk on a porch...MORE OVALTINE PLEASE!!!
One thing I might caution against, and that would be not to become addicted to anything, whether it be feesh, fowl, fins, women, etc...when something or things take place over anything/everything else, then there is loss of control...having experienced severe withdrawal from the aforementioned and other things over the years, I am close to getting me diploma from the school of HARD KNOCKS, and hope that others might follow a path of lesser resistance; a healthy approach to one's chosen activities and such allows for maximum enjoyment, thus increasing the level of pleasure, while lessening the level of pain to a greater degree...that being said, I no doubt will screw up at home or office this week and experience pain to some degree, so I guess the level will depend on me...all in all, a balance should be sought daily, and may each find that which they seek... |
|
| |
|
Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | The old records that are still standing were caught without the use of electric motors, todays detailed maps or locators. So should it count if you used either of those? A caught fish is a caught fish regarless if caught with the help of a guide. I agree with steve on that.
Pfeiff |
|
| |
|
| I'm with the guy that posted earlier: stupid question. Turning a muskie into "number 5" is a disgrace to the fish and the sport, and ultimately to yourself.
Unless you're fishing in a tournament, there are no rules about fish "counting." I strongly suggest you pick up a book by Thomas McGuane called The Longest Silence: A Life in Fishing. My comment about the problem of turning fish into numbers came from that book. Read the foreward (Some Remarks) if nothing else. This book was suggested to me by one of my good fishing friends, and I'm very glad I took his advice.
John |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8849
| Does it count???
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
We're trying to make something black and white that seldom is in my opinion.
I fish with guides pretty regularly, and I can tell you that for me, every fish ranks a little differently in how much it "counts".
Let's say you're trolling, with a guide, in his boat, using his equipment. You get a fish, the guide grabs the rod and hands it to you.
You reeled in the fish, but you're participation level was what exactly, other than being in the boat? Anyone who was there at that time would have "caught" that fish.
Now let's say you're fishing with that same guide, (let's call him Bob) and you say "Hey Bob, what do you think about hitting _______ point? The wind's blowing in there for a couple days, and we're seeing a lot of bait on the edges this morning..."
So you motor over to ________ point, on the way you clip on lure X, and when you start your drift you make that perfect cast right on the inside turn, and WHACK there's a fish...
While you weren't running the boat, you suggested the spot, you picked the bait, you put that bait right on the spot-on-the-spot, and you managed to catch a fish. Short of the guide netting the fish for you and the fact that it wasn't your boat, what role did the guide play in that particular fish??
Or lets turn it around -- lets say its your boat and you're on one of your favorite spots... You tell your buddy to throw a black suick and he catches a fish -- did YOU catch that fish ir did he? Or supposed you're on that same spot and he looks off the other side of the boat and says "ooh, look at that" throws a cast using a bait that he picked and catches a fish?
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | Things the Guide does for you...
1 Picks the spot
2 Picks the Lure
3 Provides the proper equipment to get all of this done
Things the guide doesn't do...
1 Can't ensure 100% that every cast you make has a proper bait "presentation"
2 Is Not setting the hook for you
3 Is not fighting the fish for you
4 Ignoring #2 and #3 often will ensure your fish will never see the net
I actually have never landed a fish with a guide, 0-4. However, If I would have, you can be sure they would have "counted" for the reasons above.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | Does it count when your fishing in your buddies boat?
I'd rather catch one by myself but your #*^@ sure I'll count a guide fish.
I've only been with a guide once. Didn't catch a fish but he stuck a 46. The reason it was well worth the money is because I learned how to fish a lake I was new to and also picked up some good pointers on boat control and using an "0" over an '8' on bigger fish. |
|
| |
|
Location: Contrarian Island | I think Ed, (Muskytime) nailed it...
of course fish should count with a "guide" and they should feel good to the person who caught them....with a guide, with a friend, with a guide who's a friend, alone etc etc...they all should make you feel good that you caught them...though I do see your point.... I got my WI personal best, fishing alone, last nov. on a lake I learned completely on my own...that was a good feeling..but so was my hog a few weeks ago I got with a friend who does some guiding...they all should make the angler proud...we all are guided to fish one time or another...even if we didn't have to pay the "guide"...
|
|
| |
|
| Hey Pikespawn --do ya wish you would'nt have used the word "count" ? how many people keep answering this thing from the perspective of you saying a fish does'nt count ? Folk's he clarified that about 20 response's ago --He does'nt mean it does'nt count only less personal satisfaction ! Read the whole thread Peace MD |
|
| |
|
Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Brad and Dan,
I appreciate your posts. Some people will not read, or just fly off the handle. That is their option. |
|
| |
