|
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | There was an excellent presentation by the WDNR at the symposium that addressed the single hook issue and mortality, and I assure you the WDNR doesn't approve of single hook rigs for C&R and Muskies.
Bottom line? If you want them outlawed in Wisconsin it will be an uphill battle, because the law would have to be SPECIFIC to muskies and enforceable as such, somewhat of a nightmare for conservation officers and lawmakers alike.
I think patient education and 'pressure' applied on retailers who still choose to sell them is the most effective option open to us at this point. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1270
| obfucate, That book is like 20 years old. I don't think it's fair to compare it to todays musky fishing.
South Bend is the one selling the Tony Rizzo musky rigs, I doubt that Tony even has a say in what they use his name on.
bnelson, Single hooks do not kill EVERY fish they catch! If the hook is swallowed I am sure that most of them die but just because it was hooked with a single hook does not mean it will die. Do you also think that we should outlaw single hooks for walleyes, bluegills, etc. after all they must kill every fish they hook also.
As for the study you refer to do you have any links to it? I remember one study from the Chip that, IIRC, was flawed and biased. Is there an independent study that supports you claim? I'm not doubting you but some proof would be nice. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes, look to the International Muskie Symposium, there was an excellent presentation there on mortality and single hook SWALLOW rigs done by the WDNR, I believe. I'll see if I can locate the title. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Baldy, it must be going into effect in 2007 then. I don't know the time-line of events of how it went down. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2378
| Muskie Treats - 9/28/2006 7:59 AM
Baldy, it must be going into effect in 2007 then. I don't know the time-line of events of how it went down.
It's about time we get that rule changed. Hopefully they word it clearly enough so there isnt any grey area |
|
| |
|
| As for the study you refer to do you have any links to it? I remember one study from the Chip that, IIRC, was flawed and biased. Is there an independent study that supports you claim? I'm not doubting you but some proof would be nice.
he's not referring to the Chip study.
a different study run by the DNR (independent and scientific) showed that single hook rigs kill muskies nearly every time if the muskie is allowed to swallow the rig...not all muskies died immediately, but practically every fish died relatively soon after release. this study was performed in a controlled environment in a DNR pond.
see the write-up in Musky Hunter Magazine, Oct/Nov 2004, "A Killer Tactic" by Terry Margenau.
|
|
| |
|
Location: The Yahara Chain | What was flawed with the single hook phase of the Chip study? It seemed pretty cut and dry with me they caught some fish on single hooks, put tags on them and then they died.
The WDNR did two studies, the first one had bacteria issues hence the second one. Their single hook fish died, also. |
|
| |
|
| Lets outlaw live bait fishing for Muskie!
I have used circle hooks with 100% catch and release with every fish hooked in the corner of the mouth. I am not talking about 1 or 2 fish here either.
Education on how to use them is the key.
I am not starting a fight about it but I am so sick of everyone being such an expert on the subject when they have no quantifiable evidence to support what the heck they are talking about. Show me the information on circle hooks that supports them being banned. A ''kill rig'' in my eyes is not a straight shanked circle hook.
Don't forget the more rules you want to see inforced may also hurt you in the long run. Whats next take away my bow and arrow?
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Big difference between a swallow rig with a big old J hook which penetrates the stomach and eventually kills the fish after the angler cuts the line leaving the hook, hardware, and leader in the fish and proper use of a circle hook where all that is removed with minimal or no damage. Rick is correct there.
What was flawed with the swallow rig 'study' on the Chip was the methodology, not the obvious results. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Bytor,
The resolution got hung up in the warm water committee, as the size limit proposal i put forth for the WI River did a few years back. Luckily I was working with the chairman(Steve Oestreicher at the time), and he got it back on the ballot. If one gets their resolution passed on the local level, they really need to follow it through the C.C. and resource board proces as well. The people that wrote and took the resolution to Hayward, should have gotten an invite the commity meeting. It should be attended. It could have been as simple as time had run out in the meeting so they circular filed it. That happens too, with some resolutions.
Rick, I have had less than perfect luck with circle hooks myself, even the perfectly inline ones. Hooked a few fish in the throat. That said, even if my success was 100% I would sacrafice their use for the greater good. I got more hits with circles too, but was just dissapointed in the ratio of throat hooked fish to fish hooked in the mouth(2-3:12 or so with several different types and riggings). I watched one lake go downhill directly related to single hooks, and that was Butternut lake. That lake had a great population of bigger fish, and after a few articles written about the great livebait bite in the late 80's into the 90's, I saw more people dragging single hooked meat out there than any lake I have ever fished. The lake did not suffer from poor genes as some said, and the overpopulation(if there truly is/was any) resulted somewhat from taking alot of the big fish out of the system like that(kept and delayed mort.), and openning the door for more predator biomass. We tried to talk to people about it, but quite often were scolded as do gooders or elitists. I agree that education will work and can, but it needs to be addressed somehow so people all see it, agree to it, and adhere to it. As Steve said, maybe getting them off the shelves is the first step. Anyone have luck with this?
Edited by Reef Hawg 9/28/2006 9:51 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8865
| The problem with that, reelman is that you don't know if that musky is of legal size until after you've killed it using a single hook rig.
And the reason for any fishing regulation is usually the same: Preservation of the resource. Be it size/creel/slot/bag limits, closed seasons, rules regarding spearing, shooting, etc, single hook rigs, live bait, gamefish as bait, it all boins down to making it so you have a chance at catching fish instead if sitting in the bar complaining about how great the fishing used to be.
Why would you want to use anything that you know is likely to kill the fish?
Not much different than shooting them boatside is it?
Edited by esoxaddict 9/28/2006 9:45 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | We use circle hooks alot out here for sturgeon with dead suckers, shad, etc., and I will agree that they very rarely hook a fish deep. However, to be honest I was very suprised to learn that live bait can be used for musky. Live bait has been outlawed in the west for decades.
RM |
|
| |
|
| If you are truely wanting to save the fish outlaw live bait. I have seen quick strike rigs kill fish too.
I have seen Lures kill fish . Should we outlaw them too.
Lets make more rules.
Lets stop tournaments.
Lets stop Hunting
Lets not allow guns in the home
Lets allow only 1 line per person.
Lets not use dynamite (Oh wait there already is a rule about that)
If you want or don't want circle hooks I really don't care. It won't stop me from fishing.
Its to bad some of you have tried circle hooks with bad results. I know a guy who new a guy that had bad luck on quick strike rigs. How many guys you know had a bulldog get swallowed and kill fish or a live action.
Lets outlow Jig fishing!!!! Single hook isn't it. Steve, you love jig fishing .Say good by to it if this law should pass.
How about those swim baits . Single Hook ,say goodbye to it.
This is not about single hooks or whats right or whats wrong. Quantify your findings and think of how it will effect the rest of your rights before starting a witch hunt.
I m done with this subject.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Riverman, when you use bigger suckers for sturgeon, do you lip hook them? Rubber band them? Bread bag tie them? I tried all of the above, and never set the hook, just reeling when struck/swallowed and would throat hook a fish now and then(was able to get it out, but was not fun). I use circles for catfish all the time and never have a problem, even when actually setting the hook. I thought it was the bait size that weas giving me problems, or maybe the rubberband snapping and sending the hook shooting up and to the side. Wish I could have gotten a sure thing going with those circles, as there were places that they sure were prefferred over quick sets. Finally gave up on em'. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8865
| The idea isn't to outlaw everything that can or occasionally does kill a fish, but I think most of us can agree it's a good idea to stop using the stuff that has been proven to kill them a lot of the time.
And if you're calling this a "witch hunt" I'd be curious to know how you feel about size limits, duck stamps, deer tags, closed seasons, etc.
I'd rather not have so many rules, regulations, and laws, but you know what? We NEED laws, because people are selfish, ignorant, they don't care about anyone other than themselves, and if we didn't have laws to regulate their behavior they'd %&#$ up everything for ALL of us.
You'd have guys out there shooting deer and leaving them to rot because their freezer was full. You'd have guys out there trolling with a dozen rods, the boat would look like a porcupine. You'd have guys keeping every fish they catch and letting it sit in the freezer for two years until they decided to throw it out.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | Reefhawg,
we thread the 100# Nylon leader along the sucker..you run the 11/0 circle hook in the back starting at the tail of the sucker. You pull leader through and hook it again a little closer to the head, pull throuh leader again, and finally hook the sucker right along the back just behind the head. When you drop the sucker down in the current the bait sits with the head facing downstream. I don't typically worry about waiting on the hookset...I let the fish pick it up, wait until he's got a good hold of it and has started to swim away and then set the hook. I have never hooked one deep in this way but I have missed a whole bunch of fish. It's strange how an 8 foot fish can have a bait and is swimming away with it and you set the hook and feel nothing!
RM
Edited by RiverMan 9/28/2006 10:25 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Lets outlaw Jig fishing!!!! Single hook isn't it. Steve, you love jig fishing . Say good by to it if this law should pass.'
Not even close to what we are talking about, and I didn't say I was in favor of a new law for single hook rigs. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | If you fish with a single hook and set right away, what's the difference between that and a jig? Letting fish swallow either circles or "j" hooks for 15-30 minutes is what's killing fish IMHO. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | GMG, exactly. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 454
| Agreed.
|
|
| |
|
| Jigs get swallowed sometimes fater than you can blink your eye. Don't tell me it doesn't happen.
Bulldogs get swallowed on the drop when casting .Don't tell me it doesn't happen.
Lets outlaw them!
Doesn't sound so good does it now.
I agree kill rigs should be outlawed and not Circle Hooks.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8865
| Rick Hess - 9/28/2006 11:46 AM
Jigs get swallowed sometimes fater than you can blink your eye. Don't tell me it doesn't happen.
Bulldogs get swallowed on the drop when casting .Don't tell me it doesn't happen.
Lets outlaw them!
Doesn't sound so good does it now.
I agree kill rigs should be outlawed and not Circle Hooks.
How often do bulldawgs and jigs get swallowed compared to how often single hook rigs and circle hooks get swallowed?
|
|
| |
|
| there is scientific evidence saying that swallowed J-hooks kill fish, I think we can all agree that they kill fish. However, there is no such evidence to support your assertions that circle hooks kill fish.
Kevin Mahlberg and Rick Hess have been fishing a long time, and have caught many muskies on circle hooks. They have evidence behind their assertions that circle hooks catch fish, but dont always kill them.
Circle hooks are not the same as J hooks. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8865
| My experience with circle hooks:
One fish, 34" Pike, hooked in throat, bled like a stuck pig. Swam off. Not too confident it lived.
Second fish, 26" tiger, hooked in throat, took forever to unhook. Didn't bleed as bad as the first one.
0 for 2 as far as I'm concerned |
|
| |
|
Posts: 299
Location: Nowheresville, MN | Capture Efficiencies of Two Hook Types and Associated Injury and Mortality of Juvenile Muskellunge Angled with Live Baitfish
Kenneth G. Ostrand, Michael J. Siepker, Steven J. Cooke
North American Journal of Fisheries Management
Volume 26, Issue 3 (August 2006) pp. 622–627
This was glossed over the last time posted so I will attach it here for review again. Notice the publication date of August 2006. While the experimental design and science may be good, (obviously, as it was printed in a peer reviewed scientific journal) it is MY opinion this study does more harm than good by offering a false picture of using these two techniques. The "fisherman" were instructed to set the hook as soon as they felt a strike, obviously that is why no gullet hookings were seen. They still used this method even though they acknowldge that a common tactic with these hooks is to let them swallow the bait. They used juvenile muskies and baited the hooks with fathead minnows!
I offer some select quotes:
"Angling for muskellunge (mean TL 6 SE ¼ 413 6
7 mm; mean weight 6 SE ¼ 343 6 21 g) was
conducted from June 1 to July 10, 2003, when surface
water temperatures ranged from 218C to 238C. All
anglers fished from shore with standard gear typified
by medium action rods equipped with 10-lb test line.
We used commercially available circle hooks (size 4,
Demon curved-in point, fine wire, model 39952BL;
Mustad & Son, Inc.) and J-style aberdeen hooks (size
4, plain shank, ringed eye, Model 202F-4; Eagle Claw,
Inc.) (see Figure 1) These sizes were chosen to keep
hook gape (distance from point to shank) equal.
Anglers used one of the two hook types that were
baited with two fathead minnow (range ¼ 40–55 mm
TL)"
"Anecdotal reports in some outdoor media and angling
websites suggest that before applying pressure, anglers
must allow ample time for circle hooks to be
swallowed. This angling strategy is substantially
different from our approach. We argue that under no
circumstances should fish be provided with time to
swallow the hook, because this can only increase the
chances of hooking in potentially lethal areas.
However, if anglers adopt this angling strategy, we
surmise that circle hooks would probably impart some
advantages over J hooks when bait rigs are swallowed,
according to the body of work done on other species
(Cooke and Suski 2004). Clearly, the benefits of circle
hooks are not ubiquitous across all fish species or
angling methods; in some cases, particularly for
muskellunge fisheries, they may provide little conservation
benefit over conventional gear if bait is fished
actively."
The abstract is as follows:
trict harvest regulations and a strong catch-and-release ethic among recreational anglers of muskellunge Esox masquinongy have led to interest in developing strategies for reducing injury and mortality of released fish. With many anglers using live baitfish to capture muskellunge, the use of circle hooks may reduce deep hooking and hence mortality. We contrasted the performance of circle hooks and J-style aberdeen hooks when capturing juvenile muskellunge with actively fished live baitfish. The J hooks performed better than circle hooks in terms of capture efficiency. The J hooks were more efficient at hooking muskellunge than were circle hooks, but landing efficiency was similar between the two types. Interestingly, injury was judged to be low regardless of hook type. Neither anatomical hooking location nor hooking depth differed significantly between fish captured on J and circle hooks. No fish were hooked in potentially lethal locations (e.g., gullet or eye) during the use of either hook type. Ease of hook removal did not differ between hook types, and hooks were generally categorized as easy to remove. Bleeding was considered minor and did not differ between hooks. We observed no initial or delayed mortality for fish captured on J or circle hooks. Given that J hooks have a higher muskellunge capture efficiency and that the use of circle hooks did not provide any compelling conservation benefits, anglers will probably continue to use J hooks and avoid circle hooks. Nonetheless, use of circle hooks could be advantageous for other fishing styles (e.g., still fishing, where baitfish are often swallowed), other species, or different sizes of muskellung |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | IMHO,
Fish can get hooked deep with any lure but when we use live bait we greatly increase the odds of injury to the fish. If using an artificial lure the fish will generally take the lure and shortly thereafter realize something isn't right and eject the lure from his mouth...this is why we try to strike quickly when a fish takes a soft plastic for example. With bait, live or dead, the fish will take the offering and find the texture and taste to his liking and will therefore hold on to the bait longer. In many cases fish will try to swallow the bait and thus end up being hooked in the throat, gills, etc.
Consider species other than musky, you can catch dozens of trout, bass, crappie, etc., on artificials and most will be hooked in the lips. I have caught literally 100 crappie in a row on a jig without injury to a single one of them...the same for bass. Switch out to bait on these same species and a great number of them will be hooked deep...it's unavoidable. Bass on crayfish, nightcrawlers, etc., will be hooked in the throat time after time.
Should bait fishing for musky be outlawed? If a particular lake has a population of musky that are meeting management objectives despite mortality associated with live bait then it may be acceptable to leave these fishing regulations in place. If however, the lake is not meeting management objectives and fishing seasons are being shortened as a result of this, or the trophy potential is reduced, angling opportunity, etc., then a "no bait" restriction might be best.
RM
Edited by RiverMan 9/28/2006 9:51 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Some say lets this issue be left alone as it is the individuals right to keep a musky if they want to anyway. I agree an individual can keep one fish a day.
Lets say that individual goes out for a day of single hook fishing and catches 3 fish. All hooked deep all leaders cut all fish swam away. I don’t know the exact percentage from the study maybe some one can post it, but for argument sake lets say it’s 67%. That individual likely just killed two fish when his limit is only one.
This still happens guys, there are many people in the Rhinelander area still using single hook sucker rigs and cutting the leader thinking the fish have a good chance at survival. I heard a story during the Hodag Musky Challenge of a guy, I know well, who was fishing from his pontoon boat and had a musky chewing on a single hook rigged sucker while a friend passed him in a narrow channel. The guy made a comment about how he bet a lot of guys in the tourney would like to get this fish as he thought it was mid 40s. My friend told him it’s two bad; as the fish will probably be dead after this experience. The guy said “What are you talking about, I’ll cut the leader and the fish will be fine, I do this all the time!” I have talked a number of times with that guy trying to explain the studies and there results, he chooses not to believe them, because this is how he has always fished musky.
People like that are why we need laws, on issues that can have such a severe impact on a low density fish like the musky.
I think swallow hooking mortality is someplace between 80 and 100 percent, conversely I have heard biologist say average hooking mortality from the general population is someplace under 10 percent.
8+ fish out of 10 die after hooking, probably constitutes regulation.
1 or less fish out of 10 die after hooking probably doesn’t, unless we want to join peta.
Nothing is black and white, and a middle ground should be looked at.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | There are still many anglers out there who do not read the latest magazine articles or the internet to further their fishing education. This is a huge problem in Northern Wisconsin as Mike states above. They don't want to change and fight against anything that will affect how they have always done things.
Jeff |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | I have never read more nonsense in my life regarding live bait rigs than are in the 57 posts to this thread. Fish Die from ingesting anything they can not digest. That includes plastic,Treble hooks, single hooks ,jigs and all other assorted things we add to the line in the search of the ultimate quick strike rig. But the truth that many of you simply will not grasp is the fact that there is no such thing as a swallow rig and there is no such thing as a quick strike rig. They are one in the same . both are a hook on a wire leader period! I can quick set a 5/0 single hook (barbless) and do far less damage than any treble hook in the same set. Your statements like (all single hook rigs kill every musky they hook) is absolute nonsense . You guys pushing for these laws are the ones who need to be educated. Letting a fish and this applies to any fish from Brook trout to Muskies swallow a hook of "ANY" type is the issue and it cant be legislated. All hooks kill when left behind. All hooks can be quick set including large single J Hooks. Demonizing a hook is nonsense. I hope the courts throw you out on your ears. Get real and face the real problem, quit whining to your local government officials and start doing the real work of teaching your youngsters the best way to quick set hooks on live bait. This includes not letting Brook Trout swallow worm hooks and Blue Gills not swallow tiney jigs and Pike not swallow so called quick strike rigs, single hooks or jigs. All swallowed all will kill the same way. I cant believe what I just read on this thread. S worral, I know you got the right attitude on this as well as the Gander guy. Think real hard people is it the Hook or the guy using it??????? . I dont know a single hook that can jump out of the boat and force its way down a Muskies throat do you???? Single barbless hooks are better than treble hooks when used properly setting them into the top jaw as they leave much less damage. This is a fact. Manitoba has lakes where you must use single barbless hooks. They do this because they do less damage resulting in fewer dead fish . Treble hooks are used because they hook better or more . These rigs do not protect your fish one bit and in fact they were desinged to get better hooking results . Multiple hooks hanging on a sucker boy theres a safe rig ha ha ha ha ha ha ha lets put one in the muskies eye for good measure. Think Think Think before you destroy our sport by stupid regulations that fix nothing. Teach the young and the old will die off and thier swallow tactics with them. Kingfisher |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kingfisher,
'Kill Rigs', AKA SWALLOW rigs, were the original subject. Single hook KILL/SWALLOW rigs, that means the angler lets the fish swallow the rig, in fact it says to do so in the instructions on the package. For years here in Northern WI where the rigs gained poularity, folks assumed they could land the fish, cut the line, and the fish would be fine. That turned out to be inaccurate, most do die if a J style hook is swallowed, a few will if the wrong style circle hook is used, any hook NOT swallowed isn't the issue. Not so much nonsense now...
 |
|
| |
