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Posts: 1760
Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | I truly think every bait is unique. I specifically remember years ago trolling walleye with my dad and family. Caught a couple fish on a perch shad rap. Soon we had four identical shad raps out. Same bait caught all our fish. Didn't matter where we put it in the spread. Seen the the same with muskies trolling. At times it's the one bait. Down rod or on a board. Those magic bulldawgs or swim dawgs you just keep welding back together till they're done. To our eyes they run the same as others. So called magic baits, I believe aren't magic by color, but are magic by a somewhat different vibration or something we can't distinguish. Color can be a variable at times, but I've ran a hot white double ten day and night and it still outfished black.
That being said. I too have way to many baits. You never know when they next magic one emerges. I have a garage full that may never pass the grade.. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | So when your trolling along and put out a new colour and immediately catch a fish is it because you put out the magic colour or you were in a different time and place. The best day trolling I have experienced on the Larry was a couple of years back was the Sept. full moon with 4 fish over 50 in the boat. I trolled a brown perch Fatty (my confidence lure) all day and into the night Billy trolled his confidence lure a glitter perch Fatty all day and into the night. We each caught a fish in daylight and after dark using the same two lures for probably 10 or 12 hours. Lately he's taking to changing to black perch after dark I don't see it making any difference. When I first started muskie fishing in the early 70's the guy who took me out and showed me a few things only fished from after supper till dark most every night he only had 3 lures all black . Back then around here all you could find was some form of bucktail , a swim-wizz, rarely a suick ( I bought every one I saw). I would raid the boxes of the Americans who came up in the summer but suicks always remained my go to. I remember an article by Mark Windel where he said he fished all day with the same bucktail and if he was with someone he would catch a fish take of the buctail and give it to the guy in the back of the boat and put on a completely different colour and continue to catch fish. Muskies are not complicated the more casts you make the more fish you will see and you will catch a lot of them.
Edited by horsehunter 1/21/2021 10:22 PM
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Posts: 2059
| My best trolling baits are the ones that constantly get bit, the dirty dozen all have double digit fish on them, some of my worst trolling baits are the the identical replacements.. I’ve found color to matter very little trolling |
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Posts: 2059
| Best trolling bait I have was orange fire tiger , now that it’s basically white because all the paint rubbed off, it’s still the best...best put on a board , it wanders all over the place |
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Posts: 20248
Location: oswego, il | I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times. |
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| Very interesting discussion. |
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Posts: 1760
Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times. This is true also. |
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Posts: 2373
Location: Chisholm, MN | ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors. |
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Posts: 1267
Location: Walker, MN | Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Couldn't we say the same thing about lure size, vibration, speed, lure type or any other variable? Maybe it's all timing and luck? |
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Posts: 32924
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'll stick with the science of what muskies actually can see and conclude if it's strictly color, several of the same exact model baits are out and when the most productive color is replacing another and it gets bit more. That day under those conditions at that time, the fish can see it better.
Caveats: Maybe that color bait was manufactured slightly differently. Might have a more effective vibration footprint, better depth control, a different footprint at the speed it's moving that day or some other odd variable. I've seen that and painted a couple of those lures a different color with similar contrast properties, and bingo. Really good examples were the early Weagles for casting, some custom crankbaits I have, and different hardener variations in creatures I have had made. Most of the time it turns out to be contrast, but not all. I have one Dog Turd that catches more fish than any other I have seen, and it's been probably a dozen color variations of brown to black-ish. I have a hydrophone, and figured out it has a very unique footprint. |
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Posts: 718
| I think it matters and sometimes it matters a lot. Sometime they will hit anything that moves and sometimes the entire and very specific presentation (including color) is critical. If you pigeonhole your self into thinking otherwise you will look for and only see the results that confirm the specific theory you believe in...and you will only catch fish that will respond to what you are doing missing out on action you could have otherwise.
Double tens "didn't matter" for plenty of people especially in areas that had lots of fish...until they relented and tried them and saw a significant uptick in their results. If you keep your head in the sand all you will ever see is ...sand |
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Posts: 1540
Location: Brighton CO. | When we troll for Walleyes here on the front range of Colorado speed and depth come first once we get there we dial in the right color on a good day we catch 50-60 Walleyes in 8 -10 hours. Noise is factor too, one memorial day weekend a bunch of boats trolling up and down road beds rod tip to rod tip real combat fishing and everyone was catching fish then this clown on a jet ski comes flying thru the pack and no one caught a fish for a half hour. |
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Posts: 20248
Location: oswego, il | Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Not at all. I am.catching fish they are eating just one bait. I have the same bait out in different colors not firing. I swap it out with an identical bait and color and now I have 2 baits catching fish.
I think bturg nailed it when he said sometimes color matters and sometimes it matters alot. |
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Location: oswego, il | chuckski - 1/22/2021 10:39 AM
When we troll for Walleyes here on the front range of Colorado speed and depth come first once we get there we dial in the right color on a good day we catch 50-60 Walleyes in 8 -10 hours. Noise is factor too, one memorial day weekend a bunch of boats trolling up and down road beds rod tip to rod tip real combat fishing and everyone was catching fish then this clown on a jet ski comes flying thru the pack and no one caught a fish for a half hour.
I fished Boyd and horsetooth. Got a small eye on boyd, horsetooth some tiny smallmouth. Both were like the fox chain. Pleasure boats everywhere. The coves on horsetooth were packed. Not sure how you do it. |
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Posts: 57
Location: Zimmerman | When dealing with top predators, I think color is the extra factor. When a musky is on it will hit any color bait, presented right. Color comes into play when turning that so so fish, or making a 1 fish day into a multiple fish day. I see it on Mille lacs for walleyes. A couple yrs ago when it was sunny it was a bouncer with orange blade and orange hooks. On a cloudy day you switched to blue blade with blue hooks. Any other combo would still catch fish, just not as many. For whatever reason the color turned those extra fish. Last yr it was pink. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Masqui-ninja - 1/22/2021 9:30 AM
Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Couldn't we say the same thing about lure size, vibration, speed, lure type or any other variable? Maybe it's all timing and luck?
That's what I'm getting at for sure. Especially with trolling. The caster has the ability to trigger fish more so with presentation and figure 8s. Good trollers know how to trigger fish as well. |
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Posts: 2373
Location: Chisholm, MN | ToddM - 1/22/2021 10:47 AM
Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Not at all. I am.catching fish they are eating just one bait. I have the same bait out in different colors not firing. I swap it out with an identical bait and color and now I have 2 baits catching fish.
I think bturg nailed it when he said sometimes color matters and sometimes it matters alot.
So you definitely replicated something there and the obvious thing is color. But it could have been something else more unknown as well. Maybe that bait has a special something to it but happens to be the same color, or maybe it was its position in the lineup that caused fish to eat it more. (outside board, vs inside, or propwash?)
I can't say that color doesn't matter for sure. But I think there are so many more factors that could lead to any of these instances where fish seemed to bite another color more than another.
I feel like I'm alone in this discussion haha. Also, please don't take my questioning the wrong way. Not arguing to argue here. I'm trying to learn this stuff because I am very interested. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ToddM - 1/22/2021 10:47 AM
Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Not at all. I am.catching fish they are eating just one bait. I have the same bait out in different colors not firing. I swap it out with an identical bait and color and now I have 2 baits catching fish.
I think bturg nailed it when he said sometimes color matters and sometimes it matters alot.[/QUOT
Does it matter why?
If not, how is one supposed to replicate success when conditions change? |
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Location: On the O | horsehunter - I've fished days with my Suick on on rod and a Rob Dey spinnerbait on another while my partner cycled through a bushel of baits some days we both catch fish somedays we are both skunked. I can't remember often being outfished by someone wasting time changing baits.
It's funny, I probably throw Rob's baits more then anything else and have not once caught a Muskie using brown, but black and red, well that's another story can't keep the hair on them.
We're lucky to have Sean Landsman back in Ottawa and he was asked this question just the other night at a MCI meeting. Even luckier someone's nice enough to take notes and post online. (not me) But I can cut and paste those.
They see color, “rods in eye “detect movement and night vision. “Double Cones” see colors and detail in reds, orange and yellow. Single “cone cells” see blue and purple. Single “rod cells” help detect movement and contrast. Lateral line detects movement of prey.
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Posts: 20248
Location: oswego, il | Kirby it's all good and why I started this discussion. I don't understand why color can be throwing a dart and hitting the board and that being good enough to it having to be a bullseye
Can give another example. I had a mostly black hardhead with a black tail. Popped a fish in 10 minutes. Then another. We started using the same size hardhead but the only color was white. Nothing, popped another on the black. I found a black tail put it on the white one. Popped three on it and two more on the black one.
There are days when I have caught fish on baits from blue silver to hot perch in the same area at the same time. I have had days in like conditions where color mattered and it was a different color in the same bait on different days. I find the discussion interesting and I think sometimes we tend to stick with self fulfilling prophecy when it comes to color myself included. I wonder if sometimes we don't catch a fish or don't do well we had everything right but the color.
Edited by ToddM 1/22/2021 12:07 PM
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Posts: 681
Location: Moses Lake, WA | I wonder if anyone has tested the color issue fishing for perch, bluegill, or crappie when lots of fish can be sampled rather than one or two a day as in muskie fishing. Based on the bass comments it might be possible to extrapolate to other species.
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Posts: 1267
Location: Walker, MN | Matching the hatch for trout is surely a thing. Not just profile and size, actually color.
I've seen crappies reject every color but red, they were completely inhaling red. The color was triggering them, I'm convinced. |
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| Masqui-ninja - 1/22/2021 2:28 PM
Matching the hatch for trout is surely a thing. Not just profile and size, actually color.
I've seen crappies reject every color but red, they were completely inhaling red. The color was triggering them, I'm convinced.
Now that you mention it, a red jig with a minnow will normally out fish any other color jig with a minnow in the spring. One spring, after losing all my red jigs on wood in the shallow area I was fishing, I tried, green, white and yellow. Ended up pulling up anchor, motoring home and going to the garage where I knew I had more red jigs. Now I just buy a bunch of red jigs for spring crappie fishing. |
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Posts: 32924
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Maybe I'm wasting my time here, but red a foot or two under the water with the sun angle in the Spring is basically black. Next time you run out of red jigs, try a black one. The crappies like 'em a lot.
'Can give another example. I had a mostly black hardhead with a black tail. Popped a fish in 10 minutes. Then another. We started using the same size hardhead but the only color was white. Nothing, popped another on the black. I found a black tail put it on the white one. Popped three on it and two more on the black one. '
That's a good example of what I was talking about. White is all colors reflected, black is none. Many times the white is hard to see and the black sticks out like a sore thumb. Red may have been as good, it probably was close if white was not working. I spent years trying to figure this out with my friend Jimmy Cairnes and it's a big rabbit hole, my main reason was to be able to verbalize and even show it during the courses at Nicolet College (Jimmy was teaching at Rockford and we compared notes a lot), those were a blast and most of the participants were friends by the end. That's how I ended up with a hydrophone and is one of the main reasons I began working with Aqua-Vu as they had the only affordable underwater camera and developed the first like it in full color. I see color disappear from bright to gone every afternoon and evening I ice fish, and now it's in 1080p on a 10" screen. I think T has seen the seminar I did using constantly reduced available light and colored sheets of paper and then baits. That's what I was trying to figure out how to do.
The whole color debate is really a debate on what happens to light under water and the angler realizing that what is seen on the surface means ZIPPO under the water. Then there's the issue about the clock and muskie vision. At a preset time every morning and evening, the muskie's vision goes from super-light-sensitive black and white only (rod vision) to color (cone vision) and then back again. During the changeover from cone to rod and after, it makes absolutely NO difference what color a lure is above the water in the light. It's B&W vision for the fish even if some light is still available under water.
Rabbit hole, but the science is there and all available online.
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| sworrall - 1/22/2021 4:08 PM
Maybe I'm wasting my time here, but red a foot or two under the water with the sun angle in the Spring is basically black. Next time you run out of red jigs, try a black one. The crappies like 'em a lot.
Thanks for the suggestion, will give it a try. Black is just about the only color jig I have not tried in the spring. On the other hand, I have had success fly casting a black spider with little rubber legs, now that I think of it. |
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Posts: 32924
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hit me up, I have some really cool Kenders and Vexan black jigs, and I like to share...
This image is from a recent video at about 4PM on the ice with about 3" of snow and no clouds. Light of course is reduced by snow, water, and ice. The jig is bright pink and white. Watch this clip at about the 3:10 point on, the hook looks red for a few seconds and then black....that was a cloud going over under the ice in crystal clear water mid day. Plus, if the minnow gets close to the camera the hook is almost red again, then black as it gets a foot away. That's the effect of 12" of water refracting and absorbing light.
https://www.facebook.com/358020667757/videos/321172352552936
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Posts: 499
Location: Northern Illinois | North of 8 - 1/22/2021 3:42 PM
Masqui-ninja - 1/22/2021 2:28 PM
Matching the hatch for trout is surely a thing. Not just profile and size, actually color.
I've seen crappies reject every color but red, they were completely inhaling red. The color was triggering them, I'm convinced.
Now that you mention it, a red jig with a minnow will normally out fish any other color jig with a minnow in the spring. One spring, after losing all my red jigs on wood in the shallow area I was fishing, I tried, green, white and yellow. Ended up pulling up anchor, motoring home and going to the garage where I knew I had more red jigs. Now I just buy a bunch of red jigs for spring crappie fishing.
After years of fishing for bass in a specific lake, we have noticed a seasonal color preference between black/blue and green pumpkin/black Senkos, but sometimes we see it change morning through afternoon. We sometimes use other colors but the fish tell us to come back to one of those 2 colors. Black/blue is more effective early in spring and green later in the year. We have found the algae colored water favored the green color. Black is usually better in the morning and evening. I am now wondering if this is more due to light penetration at different times of the day or year. Obviously it is much more difficult to pattern color preferences with muskies given the fewer data points. |
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Posts: 2059
| as Steve has sort of alluded to , the deeper I have baits running in the water column the less color seams to matter, baits 15’+ like basically not at all |
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Posts: 2059
| Depth and action at 4mph is the trigger, for Muskie ...bass, trout and panfish really don’t relate to this? ... Muskie sitting on the bottom in 18’ of water,
.....”oh I’ll let the grey one go by so I can wait for a darker grey one to go by”?
Edited by IAJustin 1/22/2021 11:03 PM
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Location: Chisholm, MN | IAJustin - 1/22/2021 11:01 PM
Depth and action at 4mph is the trigger, for Muskie ...bass, trout and panfish really don’t relate to this? ... Muskie sitting on the bottom in 18’ of water,
.....”oh I’ll let the grey one go by so I can wait for a darker grey one to go by”?
My point exactly. Crappies sometimes sit and analyze a just for minutes before eating it. They can decide to eat it based on color if they want. Usually our baits are moving for more aggressively than this and the trigger is the action for muskies. |
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