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| Reelwise - 4/13/2018 3:29 AM
Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size...
Struggling fish give up their location...
Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use...
They are regulating... not feeding.
yes |
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Posts: 4269
Location: Ashland WI | I wish they would "regulate" a bit more often when I go fishing... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/13/2018 3:29 AM
Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size...
Struggling fish give up their location...
Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use...
They are regulating... not feeding.
Most sick, wounded (or whatever) fish will never get consumed by any other fish. Has to do with evolution, it's bad for a healthy fish to eat a sick one. REALLY was evident in my big fish tanks. |
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Posts: 1636
| sworrall - 4/14/2018 10:09 PM Reelwise - 4/13/2018 3:29 AM Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size... Struggling fish give up their location... Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use... They are regulating... not feeding. Most sick, wounded (or whatever ) fish will never get consumed by any other fish. Has to do with evolution, it's bad for a healthy fish to eat a sick one. REALLY was evident in my big fish tanks.
You must have missed my post where I said maybe unhealthy was the wrong word. A struggling fish that has been injured isn't always "unhealthy..." but, it is a sign of weakness that can lead to being unhealthy or even death... so any resources it takes up from the time of being injured to the time of death would be a waste. Nature has a funny way of programming certain organisms to take care of things.
Edited by Reelwise 4/14/2018 9:37 PM
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Posts: 1636
| When I was a kid... I caught a Gopher Snake. I decided to get an aquarium and keep it. Might not be the most humane thing... but, I was a kid and I rescued the snake from being killed. I have caught hundreds of different kinds of snakes... and only kept one. I ended up releasing it not long after.
I put three mice in the tank. The snake ate one... then ate another right after. It did not eat the third mouse. After a month went by... the snake did not eat the third mouse. I ended up getting another mouse and put it in the tank. The snake instantly ate it. Another month went by and the snake did not eat the original third mouse. I put another mouse in the tank... and it ate it right away.
Did the snake eat the new mice out of hunger? Probably. But, those other mice also acted erratic and were new to the snakes home... and I'm sure were seen as a possible threat. If the snake was hungry... it was just as hungry while only being with the original third mouse... but, it did not eat it.
The original, third mouse posed no threat to the snake and was not taking too much of the resource (water)... just as normal behaving gamefish that spend a lot of time in the same area as a Muskie poses no threat (they generally feed on different items) - and are usually left alone. As soon as a new fish enters the area and shows signs of discomfort or begins acting erratic... that fish can become toast. Those new or erratic fish that show signs of weakness could disrupt things or take up valuable resources that would be better used by the Muskie or the healthy fish that keep the system in check.
Just something to think about...
Edited by Reelwise 4/14/2018 10:05 PM
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| Forgot to mention... the snake also ate a Lizard over the third mouse. For some reason I thought it wouldn't and I would be able to keep a lizard with the snake.
Who would have thought a snake could become friends with a mouse? The mouse would actually lay on top of the snake and sleep. Pretty wild.  |
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| Just want to throw it out there that biologists have shown that most Bass act like they can not resist eating a dying/falling minnow... because, they eat the crap out of them.
Sorry for the string of posts... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/14/2018 9:29 PM
sworrall - 4/14/2018 10:09 PM Reelwise - 4/13/2018 3:29 AM Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size... Struggling fish give up their location... Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use... They are regulating... not feeding. Most sick, wounded (or whatever ) fish will never get consumed by any other fish. Has to do with evolution, it's bad for a healthy fish to eat a sick one. REALLY was evident in my big fish tanks. You must have missed my post where I said maybe unhealthy was the wrong word. A struggling fish that has been injured isn't always "unhealthy..." but, it is a sign of weakness that can lead to being unhealthy or even death... so any resources it takes up from the time of being injured to the time of death would be a waste. Nature has a funny way of programming certain organisms to take care of things.
You would be amazed how sick and erratically swimming fish are rejected by healthy fish. Our tanks had several different game fish over the years, and when adding minnows, the unhealthy, erratically swimming ones simply died in the tank, and the healthy ones were consumed. That's an interesting theory on 'regulating', any resources I can read about it? |
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| Reelwise - 4/14/2018 10:02 PM
Forgot to mention... the snake also ate a Lizard over the third mouse. For some reason I thought it wouldn't and I would be able to keep a lizard with the snake.
Who would have thought a snake could become friends with a mouse? The mouse would actually lay on top of the snake and sleep. Pretty wild. :)
That snake & mouse story is amazing! Really wonder what vibe that mouse gave off???
The “sick erratic” vs. “injured erratic” fish apparently needs to be clarified. “Injured” erratic, such as a hooked fish being fought to the boat or the action we try to impart on many of our lures, gets eaten like crazy. I think we can all agree on that. And so does “ dying erratic” - a fish (or lure) that is slowly sinking - gets eaten quickly and A LOT. Is it because it looks “dying”?
But a “sick” fish? That is different. Do fish sense this? and avoid eating it? Yes I think they do, contrary to my previous and my other theories related to their pea brain ; )
Fascinating.
There is also contradictory scientific research about predators preferentially selecting sick prey. Different studies’ results showing that they do, and that they don’t. |
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| Yes... I believe there is a difference between a healthy fish getting stunned and acting erratic vs a fish acting erratic that has been hurt and sick for a while.Anyone ever use Bluegill for bait, for Bass? Most of the time... if you get the bait in the right spot... a Bass will eat a newly hooked, erratic acting Bluegill right away. The Bluegills usually do not last very long when doing this... and the longer you go without catching a Bass... the less chance you have of catching one with that Bluegill - regardless of if you put it in front of a new Bass or not. So, Steve... you are right... the sicker and weaker a fish gets - the less chance it has of being eaten... with a chance of not being eaten at all. It is usually the fresh fish that show signs of weakness that get eaten.
Edited by Reelwise 4/15/2018 2:14 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Confusing weakness with agitation? Moving suddenly and rapidly without a trajectory under the water is bad. Gets the transgressor eaten pretty regularly. Weak, injured, sick, those fish don't move that way and don't elicit as much of a response from predators. Note that when NOT hooked, fish don't act that way. Traffic accidents and collisions don't happen underwater much either. A predator that hits a free swimming 'gill, then spins on it and eats it when it's doing the death spin already committed. Weak might be the wrong description, maybe. |
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| Being agitated could lead to weakness... which is the point. Agitation can be a sign of weakness.
Apparently you disagree... or at least you believe you have found flaws in the idea - which is fine. But, there are plenty of things that have happened and do happen to support this "theory."
Feel free to continue to try and debunk it... but, I would love to read your reasons for why predatory fish respond to struggling fish on the end of the line the way they do. With that being said... I believe Largemouth Bass respond for a different reason than Muskies... along with similar reasons.
Edited by Reelwise 4/15/2018 2:41 PM
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| Simply put, a weak/sick fish could very well be succumbing to a bacterial condition, a virus, or possibly something parasitic. It's gone bad. You don't want to eat it. A struggling fish on the end of the line exhibits the same behavior as a fish trying to avoid being eaten. That's a target. |
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| Most fish that have been messed up or sick for a long period of time do not get eaten... I agree. I mentioned that with the Bluegill for bait example.
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| I was fishing a river last year and passed a sick sucker floating on its side, every now and then it would make a feeble attempt to swim. After about five minutes the current carried it about 15 feet from me and it disappeared in a big splash. The muskie that took it didn't care that it was sick.
I also had a fish tank with a catfish and Oscar in it, every now and then I would dump a bag of guppies in it. The obviously sick ones disappeared just as fast as the healthy ones.
Digestive systems are evolved to deal with "unhealthy" food, especially with wild creatures.
Tim |
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| Kill,kill,kill
Don't believe muskies just kill for sport,,200 lb guys drive Cadillac escalade s to South Dakota and shoot $1500 guns with $700 scopes and magnum loads just to watch prairie dogs blow apart and never get an ounce of meat,,it's fun to kill no matter how much brain tissue present. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | happy hooker - 4/17/2018 7:00 PM
Kill,kill,kill
Don't believe muskies just kill for sport,,200 lb guys drive Cadillac escalade s to South Dakota and shoot $1500 guns with $700 scopes and magnum loads just to watch prairie dogs blow apart and never get an ounce of meat,,it's fun to kill no matter how much brain tissue present.
Shusssh.... Don't mention the evil guns that Kill. people will get offended.
Seriously, An AR would be a fun gun to shoot those little Doggies with and you could actually have a good meal for the Fam. afterwards.
Hot Dogs, Fresh from the Prairie kind ... Mmmmm.. Taste like Chicken. |
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| Nobody is talking about AR's anymore... just Muskies with long razor teeth that sit under docks  |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/15/2018 2:36 PM
Being agitated could lead to weakness... which is the point. Agitation can be a sign of weakness.
Apparently you disagree... or at least you believe you have found flaws in the idea - which is fine. But, there are plenty of things that have happened and do happen to support this "theory."
Feel free to continue to try and debunk it... but, I would love to read your reasons for why predatory fish respond to struggling fish on the end of the line the way they do. With that being said... I believe Largemouth Bass respond for a different reason than Muskies... along with similar reasons.
What?
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ag·i·ta·tion
?aj?'taSH(?)n/
noun
noun: agitation
1.
a state of anxiety or nervous excitement.
"she was wringing her hands in agitation"
the action of arousing public concern about an issue and pressing for action on it.
plural noun: agitations
"widespread agitation for social reform"
2.
the action of briskly stirring or disturbing something, especially a liquid.
weak·ness
'wekn?s/
noun
noun: weakness
the state or condition of lacking strength.
"the country's weakness in international dealings"
synonyms: frailty, feebleness, enfeeblement, fragility, delicacy; infirmity, sickness, sickliness, debility, incapacity, impotence, indisposition, decrepitude, vulnerability
"with old age came weakness"
----------------------------
There's my point.
I'm not trying to 'debunk' anything, I'm pointing out observations and some knowledge gained in study and trying hard to understand your theory. |
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| Are you are trying to tell me that agitation or agitating something can not make it weak or lead to weakness? LOL... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I don't have a clue what you are trying to say, and asked for somewhere I can read up, all I got was something like your last comment.
An agitated fish is by definition not behaving as if it is weak. I also submit that 'weakness' is not readily detectable in normal, every day fish behavior until the fish reaches a state where swimming or normal movement is curtailed. My observations are that won't get the fish eaten anywhere near as quickly as struggling, agitated movement. You said a bluegill struggling will get eaten. Is that bluegill agitated, or weak? The concept you are forwarding infers fish reasoning out a rather complex issue, is that what you are saying?
I fail to see what's so funny. |
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| Obviously what I posted did not come from any study. I simply described something I believe to be true or close to the truth based on observations and experiences that stem from things that have actually happened.
Feel free to post a single Muskellunge study that goes against anything I have said. I'm not saying I am 100% correct and I'm willing to accept I am wrong... if it goes against what I have personally observed and experienced along with how I interpret it.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 9:31 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Wrong about what? I don't get what your theory is.
'Anyone ever use Bluegill for bait, for Bass? Most of the time... if you get the bait in the right spot... a Bass will eat a newly hooked, erratic acting Bluegill right away. The Bluegills usually do not last very long when doing this... and the longer you go without catching a Bass... the less chance you have of catching one with that Bluegill - regardless of if you put it in front of a new Bass or not. So, Steve... you are right... the sicker and weaker a fish gets - the less chance it has of being eaten... with a chance of not being eaten at all. It is usually the fresh fish that show signs of weakness that get eaten.'
A contradiction. A bluegill struggling to get away at first is certainly not showing any signs of weakness. Yet you say when the bluegill does show signs of weakening, the fish will not eat them as readily, which was exactly my point.
Clarify?
Also, further explanation as to the behavior of the pike and muskies I had in my tanks. They were kept fully fed all the time, always adding minnows when quite a few were still in the tank. |
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| No... not at all. You seem to think I wrote somewhere that Muskies regularly feed on sick, diseased fish. I never said that... I don't believe so anyways.
Theory is pretty much Muskies have a natural instinct to take out gamefish when they are vulnerable or somewhere they should not be. If they end up in the vicinity of a Muskie and are acting in an un-natural way... the Muskie can be triggered to hit or eat it. If the gamefish is injured... the Muskie may be triggered to take it out or eat it due to the idea that the injured fish may survive long enough to go on to take up resources the Muskie or other healthy fish in the system can use. I do not believe the Muskie hits or eats these fish out of hunger... but, rather... other... instinctive triggers. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'If the gamefish is injured... the Muskie may be triggered to take it out or eat it due to the idea that the injured fish may survive long enough to go on to take up resources the Muskie or other healthy fish in the system can use. I do not believe the Muskie hits or eats these fish out of hunger... but, rather... other... instinctive triggers.'
What resources would an injured fish take up? |
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| Food...
Another idea is an injured or weak fish may go on to reproduce... and have a negative affect on the gene pool.
That and an injured fish can go on to get sick... which could affect other fish and organisms within the system.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 10:06 PM
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| And it's not a contradiction... I used the word weakness in a way you were portraying it as. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/17/2018 10:00 PM
Food...
Another idea is an injured or weak fish may go on to reproduce... and have a negative affect on the gene pool.
That and an injured fish can go on to get sick... which could affect other fish and organisms within the system.
OK, issue there is the fish was supposedly injured or sick. Got it.
Healing will fix either, or the fish will die and be consumed by organisms that eat dead fish ( they certainly won't be disappointed), and Muskies don't eat what bluegills or other prey do.
If healing doesn't occur, the fish will die. If it does heal, the fish is taking no more resources than it was before it was sick or injured. The injured fish will not have altered genetics or pass on any 'weakness', and that entire generation would share those genetics anyway. Getting an infection (usually a fungus) from being wounded will not have any affect on other fish that are not injured, as they are not physically compromised.
Given the above, there is no possibility of 'regulating' unless the predator has the ability to create a reasoned possible scenario.
No?
I think your use of the term 'weakness' might be completely replaced by 'vulnerable' as you stated above, and I'm pretty sure muskies don't have the capacity in the noggin to care about either. No? |
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| Like I said... you apparently disagree and are trying to debunk the theory. The Bluegill thing was merely an example of how predators will mainly eat the fresh, injured fish rather than the fish that have been injured for a long period of time... that are farther along in the process of dying. I don't believe you are looking at the concept as a whole. Any theory can be debated in a way to support your own agenda if you pick and choose a couple things that support your idea. There are plenty of things in the discussion that support the original idea... and plenty of things we do as anglers with our lures to trigger fish that relate as well.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 10:36 PM
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| ...and I agree with a lot of what you have said, Steve. You pretty much said that other fish in the system have a job to do... but, that doesn't mean the Muskie does not do things to help and pick up the slack. |
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