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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Maybe Scott can answer that, I have no idea the cost.
You could be right on the head to body ratio's, (without putting the calipers to it) but the Knobla fish looks much heavier through the body and across the belly width. Lapp fish long and skinny comparatively. |
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| i could be wrong but i think photogrammetry will be impossible for the lax pics.you need to get the exact measurement of something in the picture. if you don't know their height, good luck,and it's just wood in the background |
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Posts: 43
Location: S. Wisconsin | Great discussion here. Awesome second photo of the Knobla fish. It's impressive enough without the need to hold it out several feet in front of him on that pole, I wish he didn't do that.
No need to use photogrammetry on the Lapp fish. Its Knoblas whose fish is suspiciously off the IGFA formula. Me personally, I don't wanna find out the Knobla fish is way off the mark and knock it off the list. I just wanted to see Lapps fish get the top spot due to being more "verifiable". Lapps fish is closer to the formula and she's not trying to make it look bigger with camera tricks. Then there's the human aspect of wanting the Lapp family, members of which are still around, to be honored, a danger that can cloud ones judgement, ya never know. Its hard not to play "favorites".
I thought I noticed that waters that have both pike and Muskie grow the biggest Muskie because the little pike are hatched first and they eat the little muskie upon hatching, leaving only the most vigorous muskie hatchlings to survive. Like a sort of natural selection for large baby muskie...
Fun thread... |
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Location: 31 | Mudpuppy - 3/13/2018 4:28 PM How much would a photogrammetry study of the two fish cost? Compare the two photos, it seems to me pretty obvious that the head to body length ratio on the Lapp fish, surpasses Knoblas' and then some. Mudpuppy Although both of the fish are very impressive in their own right I think it's pretty obvious that the “muskie” in both of those photos only weighed about half of what was claimed… the other half is northern pike.
I'd wager that Dan Mills would rather repeatedly hit his own hands with a hammer until he couldn't hold the hammer any more than do more fish photogrammetry after dealing with the chuckleheads at the Hayward Hall of Fame. I could be wrong… he might be slightly more willing than? |
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Posts: 386
| I have to say that replicas have come a LONG ways since those two were made by Lax. Those mounts are interesting, but the stuff he's doing now (Fittante too) is light years beyond those. Both awesome fish, and I'm glad these discussions happen, if for nothing else, we get to see some cool pics and get to learn some interesting history. LVD is definitely on my, "have to fish there at least once" list. Catching a stocked tiger is cool, putting a natural in the net is just a little bit more special.
Edited by FlyPiker 3/13/2018 9:15 PM
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Posts: 43
Location: S. Wisconsin | HA! Sage-like wisdom from Jerry Newman. NASA hires Mills to do stuff like map the moon, but Dettloff thinks he knows more... Clowns at the Hall.
I don't wanna misrepresent myself as a licensed or certified photogrammetry expert. I took the class and used the software on field exercises, but never got a job doing it. I'm not sure what it costs either. If you think about it, the results would have to show a significant size discrepancy, and then we are back to arguing about size formulas because pictures might tell you dimensions and then you can figure out volume but you have to extrapolate that to weight. If its a close match, then you gotta split hairs, and argue variables. NO THANK YOU.
AND even if the evidence is beyond reproach, who are we gonna submit the results to? The state of WI? The IGFA? The FWFHOF? *Groans*
And even if we could get accurate numbers on the necessary variables to actually perform the work, who wants to prove Knoblas fish is disappointly small? Not me. I WOULD rather catch a 56 x 26.5 than a 55 x 25.25, I can honestly tell you that, though.
Besides, its not like the Hayward fish that lied SO badly they put the WR completely out of reach forEVER. (You can offer $2500.00, or $100,000 rewards for a bigger fish with CONFIDENCE when you know they can't get there!)
The Knobla and Lapp fish are within a pound. And 51-3 is beatable. Maybe.
I'd like to give a special thank you to Larry Ramsell, too. It must have been a little tough looking through Haupts old notes and wishing He was here. I just did the same with some stuff I got from Eli Singer.
They are missed.
Edited by IGotTheFeverBIG 3/13/2018 10:20 PM
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Scott: Think the pose is more off to the side than in front, but it is somewhat in front of him.
Jerry: Any idea of the cost of Dan would do it?
FlyPiker: Those mounts are the real deal skin mounts redone by Lax. And yes, LVD is special.
Scott: You cannot argue with the fact that the remounts by Lax do show exactly what he said...they were so close he couldn't tell the difference. Pictures notwithstanding. And look at the mount pics...GIANTS both! |
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Posts: 2017
| To the side? Fish is 24” in front at least (throws things way out of wack in a photo) the stick/pole is a good 8” in front of his body and come forward from there..no dog in this fight but the Lapp fish looks considerably bigger based on photos |
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Posts: 1636
| North of 8 - 3/13/2018 4:01 PM Any idea why LVD kicked out giant tigers? Just luck of the draw or something about the body of water?
Part of it is located in Michigan...  |
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Posts: 743
| anyone know what these two big tigers were caught on? bucktails? suckers? spoons? jerkbait?
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Both were caught on Spinners...Knobla's likely on a Skinner "feathertail" and Lapp's on a Marathon Musky Houn bucktail. |
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Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | tomcat - 3/14/2018 10:04 AM
anyone know what these two big tigers were caught on? bucktails? suckers? spoons? jerkbait?
I think they were caught on prototype barfighters.  |
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| Reelwise - 3/14/2018 1:06 AM
North of 8 - 3/13/2018 4:01 PM Any idea why LVD kicked out giant tigers? Just luck of the draw or something about the body of water? Part of it is located in Michigan... : )
Yeah, aware of that, live about 40 miles south of the lake but have never fished it. Does raise an interesting question: In a case like this, is the fish a state record for both states, or do they parse where on the lake it was caught and then decide which state record it is? |
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Posts: 239
Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Does anyone have verified proof of the Knobla fish weight? There was plenty of verification on the Lapp fish. Larry you may know the details here.
Mudpuppy |
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Posts: 4269
Location: Ashland WI | North of 8 - 3/14/2018 10:27 AM
Reelwise - 3/14/2018 1:06 AM
North of 8 - 3/13/2018 4:01 PM Any idea why LVD kicked out giant tigers? Just luck of the draw or something about the body of water? Part of it is located in Michigan... : )
Yeah, aware of that, live about 40 miles south of the lake but have never fished it. Does raise an interesting question: In a case like this, is the fish a state record for both states, or do they parse where on the lake it was caught and then decide which state record it is?
What if it was caught right on the border line?
Would they only get to count half of the weight toward each states record? |
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Location: 31 | Larry Ramsell - 3/13/2018 10:11 PM Scott: Think the pose is more off to the side than in front, but it is somewhat in front of him. Jerry: Any idea of the cost of Dan would do it? FlyPiker: Those mounts are the real deal skin mounts redone by Lax. And yes, LVD is special. Scott: You cannot argue with the fact that the remounts by Lax do show exactly what he said...they were so close he couldn't tell the difference. Pictures notwithstanding. And look at the mount pics...GIANTS both!
I haven't talked to Dan for quite a while, but wonder how much (if anything) could be gained given the preponderance of evidence. |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | North of 8: The Knobla fish is the state record for both Wisconsin and Michigan.
Mudpuppy: There is equal weight verification on both fish. Also, did some checking and photogrammetry would cost over $1,500.00 per fish and it is doubtful that anything meaningful would come from analysis of the Knobla fish since there are no "knowns" in the photo's to base off of. |
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| Larry Ramsell - 3/14/2018 2:14 PM
North of 8: The Knobla fish is the state record for both Wisconsin and Michigan.
Mudpuppy: There is equal weight verification on both fish. Also, did some checking and photogrammetry would cost over $1,500.00 per fish and it is doubtful that anything meaningful would come from analysis of the Knobla fish since there are no "knowns" in the photo's to base off of.
Thanks Larry, I thought that might be the way they would handle it. |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | I have sent Mr. Worrall six more photo's to post for me. Two will be the pics of the original Knobla and Lapp mounts; one will be (hopefully) a better/clearer picture of the second Knobla photo; two will be different shots of a giant 49-pound Tiger caught from Pelican Lake, June 22, 1928 (one just after caught and one after he cleaned up!). The "clean-up" photo appeared in the July, 1936 issue of Field & Stream in an article by Bert Claflin and also in Claflin's book "Muskie Fishing" which came out in 1948 (my all time favorite muskie book). The last photo is of aTiger from Pelican Lake (near Eagle River, WI) and wasn't weighed for 3 days! It then weighed 48 1/2-pounds! I have no other info on it. Enjoy...
Edited by Larry Ramsell 3/14/2018 5:13 PM
Attachments
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 Barber 1A.jpg (94KB - 395 downloads)
Barber 2A.jpg (54KB - 367 downloads)
Knobla 2A.jpg (61KB - 403 downloads)
Orig. Knobla mount.jpg (45KB - 364 downloads)
Orig. Lapp mount.jpg (68KB - 360 downloads)
Pickerel Lake 1A.jpg (47KB - 391 downloads)
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| Larry Ramsell - 3/14/2018 5:11 PM
I have sent Mr. Worrall six more photo's to post for me. Two will be the pics of the original Knobla and Lapp mounts; one will be (hopefully) a better/clearer picture of the second Knobla photo; two will be different shots of a giant 49-pound Tiger caught from Pelican Lake, June 22, 1928 (one just after caught and one after he cleaned up!). The "clean-up" photo appeared in the July, 1936 issue of Field & Stream in an article by Bert Claflin and also in Claflin's book "Muskie Fishing" which came out in 1948 (my all time favorite muskie book). The last photo is of aTiger from Pelican Lake (near Eagle River, WI) and wasn't weighed for 3 days! It then weighed 48 1/2-pounds! I have no other info on it. Enjoy...
Pelican Lake near Rhinelander, right? |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | North: Correction, the last fish was Pickerel Lake near Eagle River, sorry. The Pelican fish was near Rhinelander, yes.
Edited by Larry Ramsell 3/14/2018 8:01 PM
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| Thanks Larry. I know there are tons of Long Lakes, Bass Lakes, Mud Lakes, etc. in WI, but I had not heard of two Pelicans. These hybrids are just the greatest looking fish. I do have a question that you might be able to answer. The chain I live on has dark stained water, lots of tannin. The pure muskies have virtually no marking and I have been told that is because of the dark water. However, the couple tigers I have seen and the photos I have seen from those that catch them show the tigers are very vividly marked. Is that typical? |
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Posts: 43
Location: S. Wisconsin | OutSTANDING photos...
This is really a treat... A lot of folks have gone through considerable resources and effort to dig out these rare gems...and Larry is at the TOP. I'm sure I'm not alone, I really enjoy seeing these old photos...its like stepping into a different era.
The Lax mounts are works of art, there's no question...but these clunky, old, "antique" (though VERY well done!) mounts really need to be classified as some form of time machine. ESPECIALLY when displayed in a bar, near whiskey...
Top DRAWER, Ramsell... good stuff! |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | North of 8: Yes, typical, although tiger from dark waters usually have more of a green tint than the silver tint from clearer waters.
Fever: Thanks...I was especially impressed with the mount of the Knobla fish. For 1919, that mount is far better than many throughout the muskie reange, even up to today! And I have been lax on photo credits:
The original Knobla came from Outdoor Life magazine in 1920, found by my cousin Rod Ramsell.
The 2nd Knobla photo I got courtesy of Al Soczka; Al's Tall Pines in Conover, WI.
Three of the original Lapp photo's came from Peter Haupt & Doug Lenicheck, Muskellunge Club of Wisconsin.
The fourth Lapp photo of her and husband came from Peter Haupt via a magazine article. Note: I would imagine that all the Lapp fresh fish photo's were courtesy originally from Mrs. Lapp.
The original Lapp mount photo I took and the remount photo's were courtesy of Ron Lax and Lax Taxidermy.
The original Knobla mount photo was courtesy of Peter Haupt.
The coverall photo of the Barber fish was a post card (also found in my new book).
The "cleaned-up" photo of the Barber fish was from an Field & Stream magazine article by Bert Claflin and his 1948 book; "Muskie Fishing".
The Pickerel Lake photo was courtesy of Rick Haydu, then Chairman of the Tiger Muskellunge Committee of the Muskellunge Club of Wisconsin.
Edited by Larry Ramsell 3/15/2018 7:49 AM
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| Thanks! Hope to catch a good one some day. |
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Posts: 18
| If you enjoy musky history and old pictures of fish, some real monsters, you need to get Larry's new book. It is an amazing collection of musky history. I've acquired and collected musky books for 20 years, there is nothing to compare it to.
Great stuff Larry! Thank you for preserving and sharing our musky history!
Hope to spend some time on the water with you this summer. |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Thanks Thomp.
Also, forgot to mention above that the original Knobla mount had been refurbished and repainted by taxidermist Fred Aman before Peter took that photo.
Edited by Larry Ramsell 3/15/2018 11:17 AM
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| This is truly some awesome stuff. Much much enjoy. Thank you!!!!! |
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| Larry Ramsell - 3/15/2018 11:16 AM
Thanks Thomp.
Also, forgot to mention above that the original Knobla mount had been refurbished and repainted by taxidermist Fred Aman before Peter took that photo.
If I ever win the lottery (gotta buy a ticket one of these days), I am going to track down one of Aman's bronze musky sculptures and buy it. When he had his studio in Conover, his stuff was amazing. Bronze ducks that were coming in to land, musky jumping through a thin bronze layer of water. |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | North of 8: Hope you win a BIG lottery as those Aman's bronze Muskies gotta be outta site price wise!! If you can even find one... |
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