Posted 1/14/2016 12:53 PM (#799517 - in reply to #799514) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 2378
Will Schultz - 1/14/2016 12:21 PM
BNelson - 1/14/2016 12:49 PM so you are saying muskies can't think or learn? while I do agree muskies are going to prefer 'healthy' forage, they obviously hit lures that are not acting healthy...look at a slow moving weagle... what is that suppose to be? def not a healthy fish on the surface...
Disagree. Have you ever watched a fish on the surface eating mayflys or other bugs? It's almost the identical motion to a death marched Weagle.
100% agree. Sounds about identical to the swoosh too.
Posted 1/14/2016 1:15 PM (#799522 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Contrarian Island
correct, but sick prey and injured prey are also 2 different things...Will, I do agree that over the course of time it's in their instincts to avoid weak, or sick/diseased pray....but an injured fish could be 100% healthy (minus the injury, which is totally different from sick or diseased) and why they eat it...look at what we do to our baits, we twitch, and rip, and pause, and jerk and then let our baits fall...why??? imo to act as if they are injured, or at any rate, to give them a good opportunity to strike them... opportunistic feeders... not scavengers
SWorralls paragraph:
The Waterwolf video we shot this year on Eagle of muskies shadowing our sucker was pretty interesting too. The muskies would charge up on the sucker, and if it didn't respond, back off. If the sucker tried to 'get away', the response was stronger. It took a pretty big move that day to get a strike, and we only had one, despite some impressive Eagle Lake blondies staying with the sucker for over a half hour.
that could also be the conditions of that day... sucker fishing over the years we have seen many days they act just like that... often times just following the suckers, at times for a very long time... fast forward a day or 2 and those same fish hit those same suckers ... I think it's a stretch for anyone to try and figure out why some days they simply follow them, and other days they hit them, same fish, same spots, same suckers... they just decided to eat that day is what it comes down to
Posted 1/14/2016 1:21 PM (#799523 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 19
My understanding is that when we are jigging Bondys in open water around schooled baitfish we are imitating a dying fish that is acting more erratically than the rest. I guess some Successful Bondy presentations also work when the Bondy moves out of the school of baitfish to a musky that is just baby sitting the school so maybe just right place and time. I also have pretty good success with a Bondy on a deadline while either casting or jigging another Bondy.usually I am moving but this past June I had a Bondy on a dead rod in dead calm water. I had just castes through the area stopped trolling motor and for next 5 minutes put rods and everything away to go home. Then I hear the line counter reel peel a few inches of line I grabbed rod and caught a 38". The Bondy had been nearly motionless for 5-10 minutes. Every other one either the wind was blowing the boat or trolling motor.
Posted 1/14/2016 1:29 PM (#799525 - in reply to #799522) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
BNelson - 1/14/2016 1:15 PM
correct, but sick prey and injured prey are also 2 different things...Will, I do agree that over the course of time it's in their instincts to avoid weak, or sick/diseased pray....but an injured fish could be 100% healthy (minus the injury, which is totally different from sick or diseased) and why they eat it...look at what we do to our baits, we twitch, and rip, and pause, and jerk and then let our baits fall...why??? imo to act as if they are injured, or at any rate, to give them a good opportunity to strike them... opportunistic feeders... not scavengers
SWorralls paragraph:
The Waterwolf video we shot this year on Eagle of muskies shadowing our sucker was pretty interesting too. The muskies would charge up on the sucker, and if it didn't respond, back off. If the sucker tried to 'get away', the response was stronger. It took a pretty big move that day to get a strike, and we only had one, despite some impressive Eagle Lake blondies staying with the sucker for over a half hour.
that could also be the conditions of that day... sucker fishing over the years we have seen many days they act just like that... often times just following the suckers, at times for a very long time... fast forward a day or 2 and those same fish hit those same suckers ... I think it's a stretch for anyone to try and figure out why some days they simply follow them, and other days they hit them, same fish, same spots, same suckers... they just decided to eat that day is what it comes down to
I didn't infer it was or was not the 'conditions' and I did specifically say 'that day'. Nor did I say anything was 'figured out' other than that day a bait that didn't move didn't get hit, and more importantly, there were muskies on the sucker almost 80% of the time, but we only saw them on sonar once in a while. We left big fish because we didn't know they were there until I edited the video. I will say this...that happened on more than one day on more than one lake, and did catch more fish by making sure the sucker took off when a fish showed up on the sonar. Problem is, not all show up on the sonar because they don't get close enough in shallower water. Need to get the Water Wolf more water time, that's for sure.
You can rip, twitch, yank, pause, or anything you want, and your lure will be VERY far from imitating any real fish, injured or otherwise. And that's actually a good thing.
Posted 1/14/2016 2:26 PM (#799532 - in reply to #799522) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
BNelson - 1/14/2016 2:15 PM correct, but sick prey and injured prey are also 2 different things...Will, I do agree that over the course of time it's in their instincts to avoid weak, or sick/diseased pray....but an injured fish could be 100% healthy (minus the injury, which is totally different from sick or diseased) and why they eat it...look at what we do to our baits, we twitch, and rip, and pause, and jerk and then let our baits fall...why??? imo to act as if they are injured, or at any rate, to give them a good opportunity to strike them... opportunistic feeders... not scavengers
Burst, pause... burst, pause... that's exactly what a fish does when feeding.
Posted 1/14/2016 2:46 PM (#799538 - in reply to #799537) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL
BNelson - 1/14/2016 2:40 PM
guess it doesn't matter to me why it works as long as I know it does ;)
Agree,
I don't know for sure but something sounds fishy about a healthy muskie eating a decaying carcass laying on the bottom, even if he's starving. A injured fish, absolutely.
The way I see it is it's all about the activity level of the fish at that particular time. On one extreme they may chase down a funny looking shoehorn thing at 10mph and on the other end a dead sucker or minnow moving at zero speed is what it takes. Just because a fish doesn't strike a lure or bait at one speed doesn't mean he wouldn't strike the exact same lure or bait at a faster or slower speed or maybe a smaller size. All fishing successes traces back to depth, speed and size control. The more active the fish, the larger faster the lure or bait he is willing to strike. The less active, even almost dormant the slower the smaller the lure or bait may be the ticket. It's impossible to do it all, all of the time.
I remember captain Larry saying years ago "he never caught a 50"+ over 3 mph", not saying it doesn't happen. The older a fish gets the more reluctant he is to leave his deep water sanctuary, the older a fish gets the slower he is and eventually dies of starvation with his inability to chase down a JB spoonplug or meal ha ha.
Posted 1/14/2016 2:55 PM (#799540 - in reply to #799538) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi.
not a musky but an apex predator ... if you have a tip-up spread out and nothing is happening, go pick em all up and drop em. more times than not you will get a flag. do nothing and you won't. seen it too many times and spend enough time on the ice to know it works.
Posted 1/14/2016 2:57 PM (#799541 - in reply to #799540) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Contrarian Island
agreed, there are guys that spend too much time, energy, and brain power to figure out the "whys" in musky fishing... a lot easier to figure out the "when" and not worry about the why...you'll catch more fish and sleep better at night ...
Posted 1/14/2016 4:28 PM (#799559 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
I am by no means calling the weak link in the food chain sick. An injured fish is what I would consider a weak link. I don't think an injury or showing weakness by fighting for your life on a quick strike rig is sickness.
Posted 1/14/2016 4:43 PM (#799562 - in reply to #799559) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Reelwise - 1/14/2016 5:28 PM I am by no means calling the weak link in the food chain sick. An injured fish is what I would consider a weak link. I don't think an injury or showing weakness by fighting for your life on a quick strike rig is sickness.
Making a distinction between just injured vs sick/diseased is something only high on the food chain mammals are capable of determining.
Posted 1/14/2016 4:51 PM (#799566 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
I was mainly referring to how the actions of an injured fish or a fish struggling on the end of someones line (a sign of weakness) triggers a reaction from some of the biggest fish in the system fairly often. I have no clue if a fish can somehow comprehend the differences between injury and sickness. I am not a fish. I have never met someone who is one.
Posted 1/14/2016 4:54 PM (#799567 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
I do believe that Muskies react differently to the different actions associated with being injured, sick, or dead. Some injured fish appear to be injured based on their movements, while dead fish do not move and may have some sort of scent a Muskie can pick up. One triggers the lateral line of a Muskie... the other does not.
Posted 1/14/2016 5:04 PM (#799570 - in reply to #799566) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Reelwise - 1/14/2016 4:51 PM
I was mainly referring to how the actions of an injured fish or a fish struggling on the end of someones line (a sign of weakness) triggers a reaction from some of the biggest fish in the system fairly often. I have no clue if a fish can somehow comprehend the differences between injury and sickness. I am not a fish. I have never met someone who is one.
A very good friend of mine who's a fisheries biologist says that...often.
Posted 1/14/2016 7:41 PM (#799607 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 230
I stopped at Bluewater New Mexico in late April 2015 and talked to three muskie fisherman. Each fisherman was throwing lures, fishing live bait and also dead bait. The lake holds a nice population of tiger muskies and gets a fair amount of fishing pressure. All three claimed that each year a significant number of muskies are caught on dead bait. While that surprised me, the type of dead bait they claimed to be using was a real shock. Each said hot dogs and chicken livers were very effective. I asked if they were fishing for catfish and they assured me they were fishing for tigers and they were catching tigers on hot dogs and chicken livers.
While I can’t verify their claims, I remember InFisherman articles featuring the use of dead bait for pike. In addition an InFisherman article cited pike displaying kleptoparasitic behavior (Kleptoparasitism or cleptoparasitism (literally, parasitism by theft) is a form of feeding in which one animal takes prey or other food from another that has caught, collected). Neither of these seem to be behaviors of a pure predator, rather they seem to describe an opportunistic feeder.
Just some thoughts….
Posted 1/14/2016 9:20 PM (#799628 - in reply to #799596) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
I don't doubt tigers feeding like pike, there's a lot of pike in a tiger.
Flambeauski - 1/14/2016 7:38 PM Injured fish release pheromones Esox can detect (one of the few species that can). Sick fish don't.
Without going and digging up the details on pheromones I seem to recall fish releasing alarm pheromones which would lead me to believe the smell of an alarm pheromone would elicit a negative response.
Posted 1/15/2016 12:00 AM (#799646 - in reply to #799628) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Video Information
Find a fish...and prey species, that behaves and sounds like these lures. The actual fish we have recorded underwater are nearly silent in comparison.
A hydrophone is a microphone designed to be used underwater for recording or listening to underwater sound. Most hydrophones are based on a piezoelectric transducer that generates electricity when subjected to a pressure change. Such piezoelectric materials, or transducers, can convert a sound signal into an electrical signal since sound is a pressure wave.
Posted 1/15/2016 5:50 AM (#799654 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 20241
Location: oswego, il
Steve are you sure fish don't have rattles in them? So your telling me that when a lure company claims their bait has life like action or a bass bubba says this spinnerbait looks like a shad they are not telling the truth?
Posted 1/15/2016 8:58 AM (#799679 - in reply to #799628) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek
Will Schultz - 1/14/2016 9:20 PM
I don't doubt tigers feeding like pike, there's a lot of pike in a tiger.
Flambeauski - 1/14/2016 7:38 PM Injured fish release pheromones Esox can detect (one of the few species that can). Sick fish don't.
Without going and digging up the details on pheromones I seem to recall fish releasing alarm pheromones which would lead me to believe the smell of an alarm pheromone would elicit a negative response.
Typically the pheromones are only detected within the species, so an injured fathead releases it and it keys the other fatheads to get out of dodge.
Esox have receptors that can pick up this pheromone, as an apex predator they are attracted to it.
Posted 1/15/2016 12:09 PM (#799714 - in reply to #799411) Subject: RE: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 255
I think with all the new knowledge I've picked up in this thread I just might do some spring casting with the same lures in the same spots, then switch to casting more lures in other spots all summer, and end with casting in the Fall in all the same spots I didn't manage to catch anything all year.
Posted 1/15/2016 12:33 PM (#799721 - in reply to #799675) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
sworrall - 1/15/2016 9:33 AM Yes, pretty much. Fish don't rattle.
Well... that's not exactly true is it? Shad click and many other fish make clicking or rattling sounds. I couldn't find a recording of a shad (should turn on my Hydrowave and record that) but here's a sound that is from a fish, a silver perch to be exact: http://www.dosits.org/files/dosits/sperch.mp3
Sounds almost exactly like the recording of those double blade bucktails.
Posted 1/15/2016 1:05 PM (#799725 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
They don't sound anything like the recordings (run it through analysis), and in hundreds of hours of recording underwater, we've never had a single fish make any noise. Not once, and we have very, very good equipment.
You can occasionally 'hear' a large school of crappies or gills go by if they are brushing together. We've never recorded shad.
If you're saying that racket is 'natural', well...I'd strongly argue it isn't even close. And that's exactly why the lures catch fish. it's not a bad thing some days for a bait to be obnoxiously loud and bright, not a bad thing at all.
Posted 1/15/2016 1:18 PM (#799728 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 8816
I think part of the mistake we make when it comes to sound is forgetting that we're detecting it with ears and hydrophones. If you could make a lure that just suspended there making the same sound as fleeing prey makes, I don't have a lot of confidence that it would ever get eaten, as I doubt it would stimulate the lateral line the same way as something moving through the water does. And since we're using human ears, how do we know what a muskie's brain does with that information anyway?
Posted 1/15/2016 1:22 PM (#799730 - in reply to #799714) Subject: RE: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1660
Location: central Wisconsin
muskidiem - 1/15/2016 12:09 PM
I think with all the new knowledge I've picked up in this thread I just might do some spring casting with the same lures in the same spots, then switch to casting more lures in other spots all summer, and end with casting in the Fall in all the same spots I didn't manage to catch anything all year.
Predator all the way.
I am just going to start chumming. That'll bring all those scavengers in.
Posted 1/15/2016 1:29 PM (#799731 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Some folks don't like to reason things through anf turn things inside out and upside down. Some do. Some are OCD about it. Guess that's me...oh well.
I can tell you I have learned some things about what the lure needs to sound like to elicit the best response, and catch more fish as a result after making modifications, so it's paid off for me.
Jeff, the hydrophone is converting pressure waves into what you 'hear'. It's really impressive when run through a really responsive sound system, some of the 'noise' makes the air literally shake, but is hard to 'hear'.
Posted 1/15/2016 2:02 PM (#799735 - in reply to #799732) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
sworrall - 1/15/2016 2:05 PM They don't sound anything like the recordings (run it through analysis), and in hundreds of hours of recording underwater, we've never had a single fish make any noise. Not once, and we have very, very good equipment. You can occasionally 'hear' a large school of crappies or gills go by if they are brushing together. We've never recorded shad. If you're saying that racket is 'natural', well...I'd strongly argue it isn't even close. And that's exactly why the lures catch fish. it's not a bad thing some days for a bait to be obnoxiously loud and bright, not a bad thing at all.
Point was, you said "fish don't rattle" but they do. Fish make sounds you just haven't recorded any. Not only the fish themselves but when they're feeding, crashing through minnows, feeding on the surface, crushing crayfish, etc.
Natural sounds? I would suggest there are very few sounds that have not occurred in their "natural" setting so yes a crankbait sounds natural. You can't make me believe that little brain is capable of identifying a biologically produced sound or one that's mechanical. If we want to talk about eliciting a response because it is feeling something it's never felt before I can go along with that. Heck, change the pitch on a trolling motor blade so it doesn't feel like the ones they normally feel and it will probably get attention.
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