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| Again, you’re doing the same WORK and inputting the same POWER with the high-speed, long-handle reel, but it might feel better for your body. Make sense?
you can devise a mathematical proof, yes, but it makes no practical sense to argue that gear ratio doesn't matter. gear ratio (along with other variables such as handle length and spool size) matters immensely for how it feels when i'm turning the crank. i totally get it that you geek out on the math, but a fishing reel is not something that exists on a chalkboard.
what everyone wants is a good way to predict which one will accomplish the desired task with the least amount of perceived effort. ie., give me the one that feels better in my hand every freaking time...oh yeah, that's right, it's the one with the longer handle and lower ratio...at least until i try to change the speed because then that reel becomes way less efficient and i want the one with the shorter handle and/or higher gear ratio and/or larger spool and/or the perfect combination of those three factors. |
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Posts: 531
| You are still not seeing that in the case of comparing two reels where IPT are the same,the gear ratio has no effect on ease of retrieve. None what so ever. I am not saying it isn't a critical part of the equation but once you figure IPT that number has real world value. If given a gear ratio and only a gear ratio it has no meaning to the ease of reeling same goes for spoil dia. That number only matters when the other is also known. Because you can have a gear ratio of 10:1 that brings in 20 IPT and a gear ratio of 2:1 that brings in 50 IPT. Same can be said on spool Dia. The number that can be used to gauge the speed of a reel is IPT. |
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| man there is a lot of bad info in this thread. |
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| IPT is a measure of speed. however, speed does not adequately or fully describe the function of reel as IPT tells you relatively little about the efficiency of the machine.
ie., when i apply more force to the crank, what occurs? while the IPT remains constant, the pace of those turns increases. gear ratio relates to the "cost" of that additional pace...which shows up as "feel."
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| It took me five weeks ,and four tries 0n a very,very accurate Digital scale to get these test results. So here we go and I am very proud to say that I finally have conclusive results. OK The pound of nails NOW actually weigh more than the pound of feathers. They were the same, but when rust started forming on the nails this week it actually caused them to weigh more than a pound. So a pound of nails does weigh more than a pound of feathers........For sure.... But wait what if the feathers are wet???? Oh No back to the laboratory |
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Posts: 531
| Jaultman
Great work on the equations.
I want to Shed some light of the value on the drive gear. Both reel A and reel B have practically the same torque value of 14.328 and 14.324 inch pounds. Pretty dang close. That value is important because that proves that the force to turn these two different gear ratio and dpool dia reels is practly equal between them. Only reason the final force was different was due to crank handle length. If the reels used same handle length the users input force would be the same.
Well done. |
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Location: Aurora | -tyler - 3/12/2015 5:51 PM
man there is a lot of bad info in this thread.
Amen brother.. Gear size is negligible???
My gawd..
PIKEMASTER... HELP!!! |
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Posts: 531
| Explain more of this "cost" and "feel". I understand that IPT doesn't paint the picture of how the shape of a reel feels in one hands. Where are you going with this? This discussion was was about force to turn reels with same IPT. it seems when you realized that what you were saying could not be proven you have gone to almost opinion base debate of feel. Help me understand
Side jack explain how the size of gear is not negligible. |
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| Sidejack - 3/12/2015 6:02 PM
-tyler - 3/12/2015 5:51 PM
man there is a lot of bad info in this thread.
Amen brother.. Gear size is negligible???
My gawd..
PIKEMASTER... HELP!!!
gear size may relate to durability but gear ratio on its own doesn't mean anything
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| anzomcik - 3/12/2015 7:04 PM
Explain more of this "cost" and "feel". I understand that IPT doesn't paint the picture of how the shape of a reel feels in one hands. Where are you going with this? This discussion was was about force to turn reels with same IPT. it seems when you realized that what you were saying could not be proven you have gone to almost opinion base debate of feel. Help me understand
Side jack explain how the size of gear is not negligible.
Meaning we will generally spin said handles at the same pace, It hurts more to spin a high ratio handle at the same pace as low ratio handle with a hard pulling put attached at the other end
I think...
Gear Ratio is certainly applicable to how your hands and arms are going to feel at the end of a 12 hour day chucking tens |
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Posts: 531
| This whole thread is about how gear ratio in combination with dpool dia will result in how many inches of line is brought in per 1 revolution of the crank (IPT inches per turn).
If two different reels have two different gear ratio can bring in the same IPT. That is because the spool dia is different. If these two reels have the same IPT then force or "hurt" is the same. The equation at the bottom of page one proves this.
A correct statement would be a reel with a lower value of IPT requires less force to crank than one with a higher value of IPT. That is not always true when speaking about gear ratio by itself.
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | anzomcik - 3/12/2015 6:55 PM
A correct statement would be a reel with a lower value of IPT requires less force to crank than one with a higher value of IPT. That is not always true when speaking about gear ratio by itself.
There you go.
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| Even with two otherwise identical reels, different amounts of required force would result from having different length crank arms. That must be included in any full discussion. The Tranx seems superior (requires less effort) to many simply because it has a longer crank arm. Suppose it takes 1 in-lb of torque to turn your reel's crank. You could do it with one pound of force at the end of a one inch long crank, or with one ounce of force at the end of a 16 inch crank. |
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| Unless the handle on that Toro is proportionately longer than the one on the Tranx to overcome the difference in gear ratio and spool diameter it will require more force applied to the handle. I don't care about work, I am talking linear (tangential) force applied at the handle. That's the feel part of it.
Math is cool, you can prove lots of stuff that doesn't apply to the real world. The blanket statement that gear ratio doesn't matter is simply not true in the real world. Sure it doesn't matter...if I can make the handle long enough to make up for the difference, but that isn't real life in most cases is it? |
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| A correct statement would be a reel with a lower value of IPT requires less force to crank than one with a higher value of IPT. That is not always true when speaking about gear ratio by itself. Another blanket statement that is not necessarily true. My Curado 300 pulls in 28 per turn compared to 30 for the Tranx. The Tranx is easier to reel in a double ten with for multiple reasons.
This statement is correct in some instances. Take the Tranx for example...
The PG pulls 30 per turn, and the HG pulls 47 per turn I believe. The PG requires much less force applied at the handle with the same bait than the HG does.
These two reels are identical except for...the gear ratio.
But gear ratio doesn't matter does it? |
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Location: Hayward, WI | BALDY - 3/12/2015 8:10 PM
A correct statement would be a reel with a lower value of IPT requires less force to crank than one with a higher value of IPT. That is not always true when speaking about gear ratio by itself. Another blanket statement that is not necessarily true. My Curado 300 pulls in 28 per turn compared to 30 for the Tranx. The Tranx is easier to reel in a double ten with for multiple reasons.
This statement is correct in some instances. Take the Tranx for example...
The PG pulls 30 per turn, and the HG pulls 47 per turn I believe. The PG requires much less force applied at the handle with the same bait than the HG does.
These two reels are identical except for...the gear ratio.
But gear ratio doesn't matter does it?
Comparing two identical reels in everything but gear ratio, the higher gear ratio picks up more line per crank. The argument is that inches per crank is what makes the difference, more so than gear ratio.
I believe all else being equal, that theory is true. |
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| BALDY - 3/12/2015 9:10 PM
A correct statement would be a reel with a lower value of IPT requires less force to crank than one with a higher value of IPT. That is not always true when speaking about gear ratio by itself. Another blanket statement that is not necessarily true. My Curado 300 pulls in 28 per turn compared to 30 for the Tranx. The Tranx is easier to reel in a double ten with for multiple reasons.
This statement is correct in some instances. Take the Tranx for example...
The PG pulls 30 per turn, and the HG pulls 47 per turn I believe. The PG requires much less force applied at the handle with the same bait than the HG does.
These two reels are identical except for...the gear ratio.
But gear ratio doesn't matter does it?
The HG actually pulls in 43" IPT with a full spool. |
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| curleytail - 3/12/2015 8:14 PM BALDY - 3/12/2015 8:10 PM A correct statement would be a reel with a lower value of IPT requires less force to crank than one with a higher value of IPT. That is not always true when speaking about gear ratio by itself. Another blanket statement that is not necessarily true. My Curado 300 pulls in 28 per turn compared to 30 for the Tranx. The Tranx is easier to reel in a double ten with for multiple reasons.
This statement is correct in some instances. Take the Tranx for example...
The PG pulls 30 per turn, and the HG pulls 47 per turn I believe. The PG requires much less force applied at the handle with the same bait than the HG does.
These two reels are identical except for...the gear ratio.
But gear ratio doesn't matter does it? Comparing two identical reels in everything but gear ratio, the higher gear ratio picks up more line per crank. The argument is that inches per crank is what makes the difference, more so than gear ratio. I believe all else being equal, that theory is true.
That is simply not true. All things (spool size, handle length, etc) being equal the only thing that can cause the difference is gear ratio.
Gear ratio is the cause, inches per turn is the effect. Not the other way around. |
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Posts: 149
| BALDY - 3/12/2015 8:10 PM
A correct statement would be a reel with a lower value of IPT requires less force to crank than one with a higher value of IPT. That is not always true when speaking about gear ratio by itself. Another blanket statement that is not necessarily true. My Curado 300 pulls in 28 per turn compared to 30 for the Tranx. The Tranx is easier to reel in a double ten with for multiple reasons.
This statement is correct in some instances. Take the Tranx for example...
The PG pulls 30 per turn, and the HG pulls 47 per turn I believe. The PG requires much less force applied at the handle with the same bait than the HG does.
These two reels are identical except for...the gear ratio.
But gear ratio doesn't matter does it?
If you put the Tranx handle on the Curado, wouldn't D10s pull easier with the Curado than with the Tranx.
If you short spooled the HG to get 30" IPT, then it should feel exactly the same as PG. Gear ratio shouldn't make any difference in the feel. |
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Posts: 531
| It seems people conviently leave out the part "If IPT are the same" when I say gear ratio doesn't matter. Leading the audience to believe that I feel gear ratio isn't inportant. That is not the case gear ratio is important but in this discussion that started at the first post gear ratio does not matter.
I thought by now the discussion of handle length being equal had been a given. It has been brought up so much I though anyone who has read every reply would understand where that stood. But one more time for baldy. Put the same handle on your curado that your tranx has and tell me which reel is easier. Also read my post on page one. I used the tranx HG and pg already.
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Posts: 531
| Six bowls you are correct in the curado and if you partly dpool a HG you can make a lessor IPT. That's why I tell everyone who ask which tranx to buy get the HG because you can make a pg from a HG but not the other way around. |
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Posts: 531
| Ok everyone think of this and answer this question.
Two reels tranx HG and tranx pg.
The HG is partly spooled to bring in 30 IPT
The PG is fully spooled bringing in 30 IPT.
Which reel is easier to crank? Answer they are the same. The lower gear ratio in this example did not make a difference because the spool dia was small enough to slow the IPT of the HG. That why I said gear ratio doesn't matter In this discussion.
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Location: Hayward, WI | BALDY - 3/12/2015 8:17 PM
curleytail - 3/12/2015 8:14 PM BALDY - 3/12/2015 8:10 PM A correct statement would be a reel with a lower value of IPT requires less force to crank than one with a higher value of IPT. That is not always true when speaking about gear ratio by itself. Another blanket statement that is not necessarily true. My Curado 300 pulls in 28 per turn compared to 30 for the Tranx. The Tranx is easier to reel in a double ten with for multiple reasons.
This statement is correct in some instances. Take the Tranx for example...
The PG pulls 30 per turn, and the HG pulls 47 per turn I believe. The PG requires much less force applied at the handle with the same bait than the HG does.
These two reels are identical except for...the gear ratio.
But gear ratio doesn't matter does it? Comparing two identical reels in everything but gear ratio, the higher gear ratio picks up more line per crank. The argument is that inches per crank is what makes the difference, more so than gear ratio. I believe all else being equal, that theory is true. That is simply not true. All things (spool size, handle length, etc ) being equal the only thing that can cause the difference is gear ratio. Gear ratio is the cause, inches per turn is the effect. Not the other way around.
Every time this discussion comes up nobody agrees, so not sure why I jump in but:
I should have said all else being equal as far as reel efficiency and handle length, if ALL was equal, there would be nothing different to compare...
Anyway, take two reels with the same handle length. One does 20" per crank and they other 45. Which is going to pull harder?
The one with a higher IPT, and I don't care HOW the one with a higher IPT got there, whether it was a higher gear ratio or a bigger spool diameter.
The fact is, the best way to find out how easy or hard a reel is on one's body for a particular use can only be learned by actually using it. IPT and handle length all factor into it - there is not just one variable to compare any reel to another. The way the reel and handle fits an individuals hands can make a difference.
With all that said, I still believe that handle length and IPT can give a pretty good educated guess when comparing reels before buying. |
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Location: Aurora | anzomcik - 3/12/2015 8:25 AM
Reason why the tranx is easier than a NACLin the given example is handle length. You have more leverage with a longer handle. Put the same length handle on a NACL that a tranx has and you will have very close to the same effort.
Stock Tranx & NACL power handles are about the same.
In fact, the NACL power handle has two mount holes and the outer one makes it a longer throw than the Tranx. |
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Location: Hayward, WI | anzomcik - 3/12/2015 8:58 PM
Ok everyone think of this and answer this question.
Two reels tranx HG and tranx pg.
The HG is partly spooled to bring in 30 IPT
The PG is fully spooled bringing in 30 IPT.
Which reel is easier to crank? Answer they are the same. The lower gear ratio in this example did not make a difference because the spool dia was small enough to slow the IPT of the HG. That why I said gear ratio doesn't matter In this discussion.
Blindfolded, they will feel the same. Without the blindfold, I think some will say the HG will be harder to crank.  |
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| Great final example anzomcik. If there is STILL an argument concerning the ORIGINAL topic in question, then all arguers are hopeless.
M Winther I'm sorry that the very simple math that clearly proves my point is so hard for you to follow. Chalk it up to "geeking out", though, and you can feel better about your real world knowledge.
How about someone proves how gear ratio makes a difference? Again, for the thousandth time, when IPT is the same for the reels in comparison.
No one is trying to argue that gear ratio is irrelevant altogether. But with regard to the original question, it doesn't matter. |
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| anzomcik - 3/12/2015 8:58 PM Ok everyone think of this and answer this question. Two reels tranx HG and tranx pg. The HG is partly spooled to bring in 30 IPT The PG is fully spooled bringing in 30 IPT. Which reel is easier to crank? Answer they are the same. The lower gear ratio in this example did not make a difference because the spool dia was small enough to slow the IPT of the HG. That why I said gear ratio doesn't matter In this discussion. nice, except that if you manipulate spool diameter to counteract gear ratio in this way, then it's equally true to say that the gear ratio made ALL of the difference. it explains WHY in that situation they require equal force in spite of being a different machine. it's also true that tireless chalkboard robots aren't turning the cranks. we could make 3' long reel handles to make them easier to turn, right? but then of course they'd be impossible to turn for different reasons entirely. most people's hands are hand-sized, and most people's wrists are wrist-sized...this is what shapes the size of the handles, not a mathematical formula.
so a general guide for the real world:
- speed: look for higher ratio, larger spool, shorter handle
- ease: look for lower ratio, longer handle
- durability: look for one that says "Shimano" on the side
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| jaultman - No one is trying to argue that gear ratio is irrelevant altogether. anzomik - Once you understand IPT and crank handle length are the two biggest players in how a reel pulls in a bait you will realize gear ratio means nothing when comparing different reels.
well, that's weird.
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| M Winther - 3/12/2015 9:39 PM
jaultman - No one is trying to argue that gear ratio is irrelevant altogether. anzomik - Once you understand IPT and crank handle length are the two biggest players in how a reel pulls in a bait you will realize gear ratio means nothing when comparing different reels. well, that's weird.
The paragraph from which you took my sentence had another statement that you seem to keep ignoring.
The weird thing is, we're not even arguing. You keep saying the same things, agreeing with my points, and then reiterating that gear ratio matters, gear ratio matters.
OF COURSE IT DOES. That was never the whole question.
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| By the way, M Winther's "general guide for the real world" a couple posts up is accurate.
Still waiting for an explanation for how gear ratio changes work input WHEN IPT IS THE SAME. |
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