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Posts: 656
Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | sworrall - 3/15/2013 2:04 PM
'If you are having problems in WS with over harvest/poaching, etc then I'd suggest you put your efforts into more Game Wardens and stiffer fines and penalties rather than continue to ban trolling as that just putting your finger in the dike. '
What does one have to do with the other? And it's not because we 'don't care' or don't want to that we have enforcement weaknesses, it's because the DNR budget has been sliced by the economic disaster that was the latest recession to the point of nearly stupid.
I hate inaccurate, widely strewn generalizations. Keep it real.
Steve:
You and I go back a long ways. You know me and that I'm all for protecting all fisheries.
I was replying to another poster that said he was against allowing motor trolling because of concerns that it would lead to over harvest of fish, which it will not. I was trying to point out that rather than spend his time, effort and $$ on fighting motor trolling that he should put his effort into something more productive and useful like lobbying to hire more game wardens and having stiffer fines and penalties for over harvesting. In fact that makes my point. I know there's a recession and major budget cuts but that is exactly why you should be lobbying for more DNR funds rather than a continued ban on motor trolling. Increasing funds for the DNR, enforcement, funds for stocking, etc will have a more positive effect than a continued ban on trolling, will it not?
Nor did I imply or say that you (WS) don't care, or that you don't want to, or aren't working to improve fisheries. You didn't get that from me.
There was nothing inaccurate, widely generalized, nor unreal about my comment. Sorry if you thought so. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It was easy to interpret it that way, and some folks were, I knew where you were coming from. No worries anyway, it's a tempest in a teacup that will end with the vote and resulting decision one way or the other. |
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Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | Flambeauski - 3/15/2013 2:03 PM
fishpoop - 3/15/2013 1:17 PM
Flambeauski - 3/15/2013 1:08 PM
Catching in MN is great. The fishing sucks, though. And trolling is a factor.
I would be very interested to hear your reasons why you feel that the, "fishing sucks and trolling is a factor?" Please explain that to me. I really don't understand your point. I don't see how trolling affects your fishing experience in a negative manner if the catching is great. Thanks : )
Walleye opener in MN on 100,000 acre lakes is more of a headache than walleye opener in Iron County on a 1000 acre lake. There's more to fishing than catching fish.
Ok, thanks. Yes walleye opener in Mn on Mille Lacs can be a zoo. lol I agree with you. But you're blaming trolling for over crowding. It's apples and oranges.
Go out on Mille Lacs on Monday after the opener and you won't have that problem. Most likely you'll have the lake to yourself or close to it. Go across Hwy 169 from Mille Lacs to Bordon Lake, about 1,000 acres or so and the same as your Iron County lake, on that same opening day and you won't have the problem either. Trolling isn't the problem there it's opening day madness and overcrowding. I don't fish Mille Lacs myself on opening day either. lol Just finding a parking place can make you swear.
I do agree with you, there is more to fishing than catching fish.  |
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Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | sworrall - 3/15/2013 2:47 PM
It was easy to interpret it that way, and some folks were, I knew where you were coming from. No worries anyway, it's a tempest in a teacup that will end with the vote and resulting decision one way or the other.
Glad you understand me and what I was trying to say. No worries.
This is a WS issue and WS will have to solve it. I think I've said all I can say about the subject. People will either listen to, and think about, my points or they will not.
I just hope you guys make good choices to improve your fishing for all species. I also hope we here in MN continue on with improving our fisheries too. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | Let's be honest here - (over) harvest isn't a Wisconsin problem, it's a human problem. While I don't have hard statistics (yet), the over bagging convictions I've seen in my area appear to be equally distributed between Wisconsin residents and those from out of state.
Show me a state in the nation where there aren't greedy SOBs. We have our fair share of them in Wisconsin, but I believe the most egregious examples of greed come out of Madison. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | fishpoop - 3/15/2013 1:37 PM
It's now 2013. How many more years need to go by before the fishing public at large learns that we can't keep everything we catch? I don't know but I'd say you need to put more effort into it rather than blame/ban trolling. Your problem isn't with a particular method of fishing, trolling, but rather with the attitude of the WS fishing public as a whole. It's a cultural problem and not a fishing method problem
If you are having problems in WS with over harvest/poaching, etc then I'd suggest you put your efforts into more Game Wardens and stiffer fines and penalties rather than continue to ban trolling as that just putting your finger in the dike.
Fishpoop you are right it is not a trolling problem with overharvest. But because we already have a lot of fisherman that don't make an effort to care for a resource trolling will aid in compounding the real problem. You don't fix a problem by making it eaiser to accomplish the problem. To allow trolling and then try and correct the problem of overharvest/keeping everything is backwards. Get overharvest/keeping everything under control first, and then open up to trolling or what ever other means a person wants to do to catch fish. Yes keeping trolling under wraps is a finger in the dike, but if you take that finger out and allow trolling guess what you are possibly aloowing? The hole could get larger in that dike and eventually break the dike.
Suggesting we spend time, money, and effort into trying to enforce laws, stricter penalties, and getting more DNR officials is not a viable option. We can all scream all we want for these things, in fact some of us have been, but we are not the ones that make the decisions. I wish it was that easy. Maybe you have some insight in how we might achieve what you suggest? I would love to know how we can get game wardens on our lakes to enforce laws. How we can make the call to hire a bunch more game wardens. This stuff is out of our hands. Meanwhile we can try and keep the finger in the dike and keep the trolling from coming until other pieces that could correct the problem are put in place.
I agree trolling is not the problem, but it could add gas to the fire that we can't control for the most part. Or in your terms it is letting the dike spring a few leaks because some people feel we need to remove that finger so our rules are simpler.
Also please use "WI" for Wisconsin. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Jerry Newman - 3/15/2013 12:40 PM
I hope you agree that Jordan Weeks knows a little more than we do regarding the over harvest concern... I believe he's addressed this pretty well with you on another site. It's a given that things will most certainly change, and depending on your perspective, there will be some negative and some positive. However, according to Jordan Weeks the current trolling ban is the “poster child” for bad rules in Wisconsin... so according to this expert the positive far outweighs the negative.
Know more than us on the overharvest concern? It's a concern we are speaking of. An opinion. To tell me he knows my opinion better than myself is kinda silly isn't it?
I follow what Jordan says, and he follows what I am saying.
Since you are reading the other site then I know you read the following from Jordan:
"Travis, I understand your concern. We do have a process in place to implement emergency rules on waters that we identify (for example a 6 month closure to harvest on a system we believe is in peril). So, if the biologists up that way see something that they believe will destroy a fishery they have the ability to close it for a period of time in order to implemenet a more perminant rule."
"Finally, you are correct when you say we are short staffed and may not be able to respond/monitor all waters. This is unfortunately out of our control. We will do our best."
It is those two statements that keep me uneasy. We are told they will watch what happens going forward, and that the biologists have the ability to implement emergency rules if need be. However they do not have the ability (manpower) to watch it close enough.
I trust Jordan and other experts are doing the right thing. That doesn't mean I can't have my doubts, and have an opinion of not wanting trolling. After all this thread is all about our opinions, and not who is right or who is wrong.
A little more Jordan says since you want to reference what he says:
"I think you are right regarding blame should the fisheries collapse...but there is precedence that says they will not-based on the lakes in other counties that currently allow trolling. I hope I'm right too (but it's not just me who made this decision-there are people a lot smarter than I working here too!)"
So he hopes he is right as well. If this was a no brainer there would be no "hope" on his part. Maybe I am taking that out of context and Jordan really is 100% positive this is a biologically sound change.
Another from Jordan Weeks:
"There will continue to be creel surveys performed in the Northwoods, however, I don't anticipate that they will increase in number-so coverage will be sparse. Your concerns are well founded in that regard. I do not have an answer as to why...except for reductions in funding play a role."
So as mentioned on here before to know how anything is impacted you need to know the before and after statistics. Creel surveys will not increase. Creel surveys are not done on every lake every year. Only a handful of lakes have a creel survey each year. I don't know the cycle but I am sure it is awhile before the creel survey will be done on the same lake twice. So if the last time a survey was done on a lake was say 2008, and the next scheduled on that lake is 2018, is that enough frequency to monitor how a lake is doing?
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| I'm no biologist. I don't even play one on TV. I don't work for the DNR. I do not discredit their intelligence or their ability or their knowledge. But they have all but admitted that there does not exist the money or time or personnel to studiy this effectively, enforce the rules effectively, or truly understand the dynamics of individual lakes, or even in a county by county basis.
The experts themselves are basically saying "we don't know, because we don't have the means to study the issue effectively. Even if we DID, we do not have the money or the means to enforce or implement any laws."
Seems to me that the opinions of the people who are actually out there day after day, season after season, ON the lakes, SEEING what goes on might just know a bit more here...
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| esoxaddict - 3/15/2013 8:24 PM
I'm no biologist. I don't even play one on TV. I don't work for the DNR. I do not discredit their intelligence or their ability or their knowledge. But they have all but admitted that there does not exist the money or time or personnel to studiy this effectively, enforce the rules effectively, or truly understand the dynamics of individual lakes, or even in a county by county basis.
The experts themselves are basically saying "we don't know, because we don't have the means to study the issue effectively. Even if we DID, we do not have the money or the means to enforce or implement any laws."
Seems to me that the opinions of the people who are actually out there day after day, season after season, ON the lakes, SEEING what goes on might just know a bit more here...
If the people out there are making money off the resources like guides, why would you accept their opinion or if people are just concerned with having more traffic on the lake? Perhaps those that can have an objective eye would carry the most truth. BR |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Creel surveys in the area in question are paid for by GLIFWC..Treaty.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | BenR - 3/15/2013 8:29 PM
esoxaddict - 3/15/2013 8:24 PM
I'm no biologist. I don't even play one on TV. I don't work for the DNR. I do not discredit their intelligence or their ability or their knowledge. But they have all but admitted that there does not exist the money or time or personnel to studiy this effectively, enforce the rules effectively, or truly understand the dynamics of individual lakes, or even in a county by county basis.
The experts themselves are basically saying "we don't know, because we don't have the means to study the issue effectively. Even if we DID, we do not have the money or the means to enforce or implement any laws."
Seems to me that the opinions of the people who are actually out there day after day, season after season, ON the lakes, SEEING what goes on might just know a bit more here...
If the people out there are making money off the resources like guides, why would you accept their opinion or if people are just concerned with having more traffic on the lake? Perhaps those that can have an objective eye would carry the most truth. BR
like Sled? same logic, same truth as you are hearing from Travis and others. refute it if you want to but yah, Jerry and BenR i would say collectively that there are some experts in vilas and oneida county life and fishing responding here.
i just spent the last two days fishing among the natives ... talked a bit about the overall situation. it's a wide gap and our resources are in need of some relief not "another" way to exploit them. jiggin' whitefish is a hoot tho that's for sure!!
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Location: Elgin, IL | esoxaddict - 3/15/2013 8:24 PM
Seems to me that the opinions of the people who are actually out there day after day, season after season, ON the lakes, SEEING what goes on might just know a bit more here...
This is a key point in the discussion. What really happens in the NorthWoods is sometimes way different than what is proclaimed.....on ALL sides of this dilemma.
It would be easy for a non-resident like me to just say "why not troll?", without knowing other factors involved. It's just not that simple. There are a few guys here who I would trust with info way before I would trust the word of others. Just because of their experience UpThere. Ironically, some of them I've never met face to face....I just trust them as outdoorsmen. I do have great friends who happen to live and own businesses up there too.
It's a mess, I hope cooler heads can prevail in all of these issues. It seems to me that after reading all of this info carefully, changing trolling regs is not something that should be a priority right now. There are other fish to fry, in my opinion.
I'm getting pretty good at this "position fishing" thing anyway. I've learned how to be very efficient with a drift sock too. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i spent the past few days jigging whitefish with 3 non-natives and 2 native americans trying to get my own read on the overall situation. my conclusion is that the two most important things to resolve are "why" are you doing what you are doing and "how" can all happen in the best way possible.
my conclusion is that the gap is WIDE and will never be completely bridged. that's not to say there can't be some kind of compromise, unfortunately the status of things as they stand today suggest both sides are moving away from the middle. i'd rather see more effort there than where its being applied.
yesterday i took my shack off the ice and i'll tell you the last thing i would want to do today is to go out on the ice (more like swamp) and participate in a spearing tournament.
my biggest concern from all of this? = SAFETY. i've learned there are unmarked holes and less than great effort to protect the after-time. be careful out there if you venture out to a place that is being speared. i just saw a note that that is a paramount piece of the tribe's efforts this weekend, but as a local i also "hear" first-hand that it is something that is happening. it concerns me more than a dead musky does.
steve ... feel free to delete this post if it causes a litany of rebuttals that get negative. it's meant to be an accurate report with information that is usable and helpful to those still out on the ice and interested in the overall situation currently and as we enter into the season.
you can't see some of this stuff from LaCrosse, WI. jerry ... |
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Location: 31 | Northwind Mark - 3/16/2013 10:02 AM esoxaddict - 3/15/2013 8:24 PM Seems to me that the opinions of the people who are actually out there day after day, season after season, ON the lakes, SEEING what goes on might just know a bit more here... This is a key point in the discussion. What really happens in the NorthWoods is sometimes way different than what is proclaimed.....on ALL sides of this dilemma. It would be easy for a non-resident like me to just say "why not troll?", without knowing other factors involved. It's just not that simple. There are a few guys here who I would trust with info way before I would trust the word of others. Just because of their experience UpThere. Ironically, some of them I've never met face to face....I just trust them as outdoorsmen. I do have great friends who happen to live and own businesses up there too. It's a mess, I hope cooler heads can prevail in all of these issues. It seems to me that after reading all of this info carefully, changing trolling regs is not something that should be a priority right now. There are other fish to fry, in my opinion. I'm getting pretty good at this "position fishing" thing anyway. I've learned how to be very efficient with a drift sock too. Hi Mark, I disagree that it’s a dilemma and that it only affects only the Northwoods. It's a “perceived” dilemma at best and is also a statewide issue. For instance, there's a small lake just over the border that I would fish some but can't because trolling is banned there as well. It's not a big deal to me, but it is something. Frankly, after researching this, it is easy for me to say “why not troll”, and I will accordingly on April 8. Lifting this silly trolling ban is long overdue IMHO. I see you're from Elgin, if you want to ride along, just let me know and I'll drive you there… even if you're vote cancels mine out. You can't see that lake from the Northwoods either Sled.
Edited by Jerry Newman 3/16/2013 10:36 AM
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | Thanks for your perspective sled.
I found the following statement especially revealing:
jonnysled - 3/16/2013 10:21 AM
..unfortunately the status of things as they stand today suggest both sides are moving away from the middle.
That pretty much seems to be the American condition these days. Interesting how the locals/natives behavior closely mimic what happens on a national scale... |
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Location: Elgin, IL | Thanks Jerry. I truly see both sides of this issue and I appreciate the offer. I will probably be going with several guys I know, and we all have different views on this.
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Location: minocqua, wi. | jerry ... that lake is in the heart of the northwoods and 15 miles from my house. there are a few options for whitefish within 20 miles. i'm assuming you are referencing the whitefish lake ...
Edited by jonnysled 3/16/2013 6:06 PM
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Location: 31 | jonnysled - 3/16/2013 5:38 PM jerry ... that lake is in the heart of the northwoods and 15 miles from my house. there are a few options for whitefish within 20 miles. i'm assuming you are referencing the whitefish lake ... Nope, I was referring to the bigger statewide issue of the way the trolling ban is scattered around the state kind of willy-nilly. From my post; “For instance, there's a small lake just over the border that I would fish some but can't because trolling is banned there as well. It's not a big deal to me, but it is something.”
Edited by Jerry Newman 3/16/2013 11:32 PM
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Location: Rhinelander. | back some years trolling was legal here. Backtrolling only. Did not not but create problems. I would say we have only a few lakes that are even big enough to bother with. If you can't cast due to a handicapp you can get a special per. to troll. I thinks thats great. .
Pfeiff
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