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Location: oswego, il | Dd defender on another site and others claimed that the obrien fish was filled with water. There is a picture of the fish hanging vertically with it's throat detached. I have seen no proof offered other than their claim in that particular photo and I raised the question along time ago perhaps it separated under the weight from hanging vertically but no one responded to that just like they did not respond in this thread to why their hired mathmatician said spray's fish was not as big as be claimed.
Edited by ToddM 1/31/2011 3:59 PM
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | This "guest" post got me to thinking about this whole mess and going back to the Lawton chapter in Volume I of my book:
"If you are making a claim that the photomodeler software has been used to determine the length of Lawton's fish it is imperative that you identify the person using the software. Accurate results using photomodeler depend to a large extent upon the competency of the person using it."
LR: First of all, the WRMA should have DCM do the photomodeling for consistency, not rely on someone else who "may" have done so or may or may not be qualified.
Second of all, I have come to the conclusion that photo analysis for LENGTH means relatively nothing, since World Records are estaablished by WEIGHT! Based on work that I did in my Lawton review left me with this comment in my book:
"The range of calculated fish lengths from these three photographs illustrates the difficulty in accurately scaling fish size from photographs, even when the same pose is used at similar times with the same camera, vast differences in fish length were obtained. Not taking into account the subjective actual points where the measurements were taken, which can greatly affect the results, camera distance and photo size also affects the ultimate result. In the example above (pages 421-424), depending on which determined board size is used, results in the length of fish calculated from these photographs vary from 54.83 inches long, to 65.54 inches long; a difference of 10.71 inches, using the same subjects (Lawton and fish), the same pose and the same camera at about the same time. When factoring into this the variability in determining and manually reproducing exact measurement points, the questionable accuracy of manually determining fish length from photographs is apparent.
"Conclusion:
"What I found most fascinating in this exercise, was the fact that photo subject image size and the minor differences of distance of subjects from the camera, had a tremendous impact on the final calculation of fish size. Trying to determine fish length by scaling photographs, even with precision measuring instruments, is not a sound method."
And since it is weight that determines records, the only reliable determinent of past records should be scale and witnesses and the respected record committees that reviewed them. In the case of Lawton and Spray, Field & Steam was responsible. Johnson's fish was NOT reviewed to record standards since Spray userped him before their contest year was over. With regard to the Lawton weighing, there were many witnesses. With Spray's catch, there was only ONE witness to the weighing other than Spray himself and his two boat partners. Still, both met record requirements of the day and were accepted by Field & Stream. Both were weighed on certified scales.
Again, it's weight, not length. Disprove WEIGHT and the discussion can continue, otherwise, we are merely chasing our collective tails, making for an interesting and fun winter discussion, but having little affect on records. The record keepers however, need to look in the mirror and decide if they wish to continue playing games with photos and length, or concentrate on what matters, the WEIGHT of the fish.
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell,
Muskellunge Historian
Edited by Larry Ramsell 1/31/2011 4:07 PM
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | ToddM:
The reason the throat of O'brien's fish is "detached" is because he slit it with a filet knife to kill it. He had no other way to do so.
As noted in another post, there is a problem with the O'brien fish. I'm told a report will be out before spring. However, it has to do with fish length and not weight (note: the "hose theory" has never been proven). Here we go again!!
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| If the throat was slit, I could see how that could definately affect a length measurement of the fish. On the other hand, that would also affect the weight of the fish in a negative manner. That fish had to loose a significant amount of blood, fluids etc. |
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Posts: 426
Location: Perryville, MO | Thanks Todd and Larry...I found the thread on another site discussing the "issues" surrounding the O'Brien fish and I understand that a report is still forthcoming. I now understand the "stay tuned" statement made earlier in the thread. I see that I have to "stay tuned" until the Spring. Well, I'll be fishing come the end of Feb so I'll find out the results next winter I guess.
Edited by hawkeye9 1/31/2011 4:48 PM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | John Powers and Paul Gasparino witnessed the weighing of the Obrien fish their word is good enough for me.
Gaspar told me the fish was still alive when weighed.
Frank Shelton
Tweed Ontario |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Larry Ramsell - 1/31/2011 4:01 PM Will: Just reflecting on your WRMA "for nothing" comment with regard to Lawton. Actually, the WRMA did NOTHING with Lawton! Those were not my words, those were the words of "guest" that said the WRMA work would be for nothing if the IGFA reinstated Lawton. I'm well aware that WRMA did nothing with Lawton. The point was/is the IGFA ruled they wouldn't do anything with Johnson based on a photo but the IGFA set aside Lawton based on a photo. Thus making their Johnson ruling hypocritical. |
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Posts: 6
Location: Inverary, Ontario | Obrien's fish appeared to be a freak, and full of bullheads, which helps explain the extreme weight.
Spay, Lawton,Johnson, not even close.
Up till now,(given the chance) always thought I'd keep the WR, but the controversy that would follow, not to mention the added fishing pressure, not sure I'd want it.
We musky fisherman are obsessed... |
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| O'briens fish is in Gano bar. Why its in 40 acre shoal area and not Georgian Bay have no idea.
I touched it for good luck drunk one night. Very easy for someone to measure it for length. Probably could take it home if you really wanted to as the place is usually empty. Surprised it has not been stolen yet. Unless I was drunk and its a replica I was told its the real fish.
I think the guy with the camo pants has the world release record easily bigger than the current catch and release record and by looks of the photo I think the guy in the camo pants released it as well. Surprised people do not complain about the world record release photo. That is worse than the Lawton and Johnson fish. Can someone post that photo. Will be good for at least another 50 replies to this thread.
Go out and catch a 70 pounder. Otherwise no world record. Want release record go get a 64 incher. Until than can we stop complaining and man up and get it done.
Todd Booth |
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Location: NorthCentral WI | Sam Ubl - 1/31/2011 1:08 PM
Kyle Anderson's 55" 50lber looks bigger than all of the above!
I totally agree. Can hardly believe that fish only weighed 50 lbs. Then again, it doesn't look like Kyle is much more than 5' tall, if that. IMO that is the most impressive picture of a recent catch. However, the size of the angler has a big effect.
Edited by MartinTD 2/1/2011 7:10 PM
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| Maybe we should lobby to have all the of the 'new' records recorded millimeters. If big numbers make you feel good, the metric system is for you!
“I caught a 914mm Musky today that weighed 4535 grams.” (Sounds huge, doesn’t it?)  |
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| let us all agree on one thing ... Spray fish=fake
Johnson fish=fake
Lawton fish= fake
Now lets all take a break until a real 70lb fish is caught and landed |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Might be a very long break. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | One that I'm sure would be welcomed by most. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Really? Look at the views on this thread. |
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| I have been told by those who I have no reason to doubt, men I have known for years, one of them affiliated with a "national magazine" and two of them guides with well respected reputations that fish have been caught and released in Ontario and New York in more than one area (not limited to one water way) that have easily gone over 70 pounds.
Why no news then? Go figure!
Who wants all the trouble and the mobs that follow?
There exists a mentality these days, a playground mentality of "Go kill the guy with the ball" and these guys just don't want to play that game. They know what they caught and are happy with the memories and the private photos, I have seen some of them. More than one fish I assure you.
I can't blame them for their privacy, it's their business. They are into fishing.
Pretty much that's it. They are into fishing and don't much care to bring down a storm on themselves.
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | And then I woke up. |
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| Guest - 2/1/2011 11:36 PM
I have been told by those who I have no reason to doubt, men I have known for years, one of them affiliated with a "national magazine" and two of them guides with well respected reputations that fish have been caught and released in Ontario and New York in more than one area (not limited to one water way) that have easily gone over 70 pounds.
Why no news then? Go figure!
Who wants all the trouble and the mobs that follow?
There exists a mentality these days, a playground mentality of "Go kill the guy with the ball" and these guys just don't want to play that game. They know what they caught and are happy with the memories and the private photos, I have seen some of them. More than one fish I assure you.
I can't blame them for their privacy, it's their business. They are into fishing.
Pretty much that's it. They are into fishing and don't much care to bring down a storm on themselves.
Hmph. The dozen or so "reputable guides" I've fished with over the years (many of whom are from Ontario, and put multiple 50" fish in the boat every year) seem to think muskies just don't get that big.
"Easily" over 70#? It's easy to call a fish 70#, but I suspect your friends would be dissapointed to see what those fish really weighed.
Edited by esoxaddict 2/2/2011 9:49 AM
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Location: Inverary, Ontario | Had the pleasure of netting and releasing a 58" ST. L. fish last year, it looked and felt like 60 at the time, but likely less. Have yet to see pics of anything close to seventy, in spite of some claims to it.
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Posts: 158
| I was looking through some old Musky Hunter magazines and found the article they ran about Lawton's overturned fish, and the two magazines that ran the article, "In Defense of Louis Spray". EDIT: I don't buy the size of the Spray fish, but I do admit, that there is a picture in one of those articles of him standing to a mount of his fish, and the angle and picture do make the fish look bigger than in the typical picture we are all used to.
Edited by LonLB 2/2/2011 11:04 AM
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| Guest - 2/1/2011 11:36 PM
I have been told by those who I have no reason to doubt, men I have known for years, one of them affiliated with a "national magazine" and two of them guides with well respected reputations that fish have been caught and released in Ontario and New York in more than one area (not limited to one water way) that have easily gone over 70 pounds.
Why no news then? Go figure!
Who wants all the trouble and the mobs that follow?
There exists a mentality these days, a playground mentality of "Go kill the guy with the ball" and these guys just don't want to play that game. They know what they caught and are happy with the memories and the private photos, I have seen some of them. More than one fish I assure you.
I can't blame them for their privacy, it's their business. They are into fishing.
Pretty much that's it. They are into fishing and don't much care to bring down a storm on themselves.
LOL. Exactly why guest posts are so highly disregarded on this forum.
I have started to think all guest post carry the same weight. But, that's just me. |
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Location: oswego, il | I have not seen much meat coming from the pro hayward guest posts, just one sided stuff. For example, the guest post who wished lawton would have come clean like hartman did. No mention that the guest wish spray or johnson would have come clean too. It's always the same with the pro hayward guest posts, dance around the facts. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | sworrall - 2/1/2011 10:22 PM
Really? Look at the views on this thread.
Look at the circulation of the National Enquirer. |
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| I wish they ALL would have come clean like Hartman did. But then, this will be disregarded because I'm an anon poster. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This ain't the National Enquirer. If you are not a muskie angler, even if you are very computer savvy, it's doubtful you would visit this place. Conversely, if you are a muskie angler and have a computer, it's likely you will. Big difference. |
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| Todd i do get your point , but i think it would be much better worded "the pro Spray or Pro Johnson guests ", I do believe that there are a lot of fine people in Hayward and i don't think that a few bad apples spoil the lot .Imagine how you would feel if someone from your area tainted your reputation and you could do nothing about it , and just so you know I'm not from Hayward and have never been there
Bill |
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Location: Maple Grove, MN | The world record(s) have no more legitimacy than people give them. If the vast majority do not give them legitimacy, then they have none. It is that simple. It is no different for anything else. For instance, the hot dog eating world record has been disputed at times. Not only that, but the hot dogs are bigger in the USA than other countries. Of course one can eat more over-seas.
A much more difficult world record might be the time required for a man to take his attention off a good football game and listen to his wife when she unexpectedly comes up and asks him something - like where he put something or, worse yet, how she looks in some article of clothing. How fast can a man be expected to switch gears like that? Five, ten minutes?
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Location: oswego, il | TH1958, that is true. Hayward is a wonderful place for sure. been there, been on the Chip. it is a beautiful body of water and will forever remain in mine and my kids memory as the first place we went on vacation. My oldest son's first pike. I should have not mixed the two.
I don't have any issues with most guest posts. Only the attack ones. Some people don't like any of them and I get some reasons for anonymity based on who that person is and to discuss the issue without sidetracking the thread. |
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| Three simple words....Visual Geometry Solution...why are you so afraid of the truth?????
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Context. Doesn't mean anything on it's own. Tell the entire story to allow proper rebuttal. |
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