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| I need some help flushing out the hypocrisy that is infesting this thread. The way I see it the biologists see no harm in allowing trolling state wide. I thought we wanted trained biologists making the decisions as to what is allowed. I see moderators and posters making that statement all the time. However, when these people disagree with the biologists we should all get an equal vote. AHHHH, the hypocrisy. |
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Posts: 580
| CiscoKid - 2/28/2013 8:12 AM
How can trolling improve a fishery? I said it will either not change it or hurt it. That’s a pretty accurate statement I would think. Also trolling most definitely hurt fisheries the last time it was in effect in N. WI. THAT is a fact that cannot be disputed!
The DNR flat disagrees with the accuracy of your statement. They've stated that there is no evidence to suggest that trolling will harm any fishery.
The DNR must be missing all of the evidence of decimated fisheries from the backtrolling days in the early '90's. You should submit all of those undisputed facts at your disposal to the DNR so that they can have a more informed position on the matter.
But before doing that, take a look at the link: http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/fishing/documents/rules/MotorTrollingPropos...
Note specifically the Q&A's and the evidence cited, for instance:
Common Questions and Answers:
Didn’t backtrolling in the 1990s impact musky size structure in Vilas County?
Back-trolling was allowed from 1990-1994. Some people believe that this caused irreperable harm to musky populations in Vilas County. However, the average length of the largest fish registered in the Vilas County musky marathon was larger after back-trolling versus before.
* * *
Also, the number of fish 45” (registered by Muskies, Inc., members) has continued to increase. The years immediately following back-trolling (1995-1999) showed no impact.
Edited by Matt DeVos 2/28/2013 8:59 AM
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| Great link Matt. I suspect those firmly AGAINST trolling won't let the facts compiled by the trained professionals get in their way. |
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| Matt I suspect that is because the fishery's are rebounding from the backtrolling and single hook sucker rig years. |
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| Can someone explain what happened in the 90's when backtrolling was leagal? I keep hearing it was terrible, but never here what or why? |
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| I am sure Cscokid is compiling his four year catch data from before, during and after back-trolling was legal for those four years and we will be able to once and for all see how devastating it was to those fisheries. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | A few observations from the early 90's bactrolling days...
Fish were killed, yes. But, guides/clients/anglers killed fish regardless of how they were caught. Trolling didn't kill any more fish than casting or live bait fishing. Actually killed A LOT less than casting/live bait fishing, mostly because the majority of anglers who invested the time/money to figure out how to troll effectively were on the cutting edgo at the time, which also meant CPR. Again, trolling doesn't kill fish, people do.
Another observation I recall from those days were the massive amounts of suspended fish. This was the time of the rusty crayfish's peak on many lakes. Weed beds were gone, and baitfish were all over the basins of the lakes. Also, cisco numbers were much higher than now, not sure why that is. Maybe the current warming trend - warmer lake temps/lower water levels? I'm not sure, but definitely haven't seen the numbers of ciscos the last several years.
Anyway, just a few of my notes from that time period.
JS |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Thanks Sloan for your input on what you saw at that time. I would like to hear from others.
Why was trolling only allowed for 4 years? |
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Posts: 275
| Plenty of lakes to troll on, no need to change a great thing. I think most of the fun and satisfaction of catching a musky is taken away by trolling. There is so much more pleasure in musky fishing to me than lazily driving a boat around and reeling in an already hooked fish. I've been involved with local government making (non-fishing related) changes in my area, and in most cases if not all they should have left small town "preferences" or "tradition" alone. Just my two cents.
Jaimy |
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Location: Hayward, WI | I've hesitated replying to this since I agree some with both sides of the arguement. I think rather than give much opinion I'll share what I have seen from a trolling perspective.
I've lived and fished in Chippewa and Sawyer county, WI. Both areas allow trolling. Most waters in Chippewa could be trolled and about 1/2 of them that I regularly fish in Sawyer can be trolled. On the waters that allow trolling, I have never seen pontoons with masts, charter boats dragging multiple fish around, etc. Even if somebody is trolling it's not often that you hear their motor as most trollers are using a kicker or 4 stroke outboard and unless they are right on top of you, can't easily be heard.
Most people still are not trolling even on lakes where it's legal. Some are, but I would say maybe up to 25% are trolling. Most musky guys are casting and most walleye guys around here seem to anchor and toss out slip bobbers.
My limited experience in Vilas has been that I have not encountered a lot of people on the water. I'm somewhat aware that this can depend on the area of Vilas you are fishing. Anyway, I think the lack of people on the water comes from... lack of people in the area. Allowing trolling isn't going to attract more people to the area I don't believe. Also, I fish a couple waters from 3,000 to 5,000 acres. Most guys that troll toss out a few flat lines or maybe a small set of inline planer boards. I don't think you'll see the huge spread of mast system trolling unless you get on Lake superior, Green bay, Mille Lacs, etc.
The trollers have kept their distance from me just as well and often times better than casters. Any form of pleasure watercraft is a much greater concern to disrupting my fishing than a trolling fisherman, 95% of the time.
Do I think trolling should be allowed statewide? I'm not really sure. One thing I do know is it would be nice to be able to fish suckers in the fall (vertically) without having to wonder if I'll get in trouble or not. My guess is allowing trolling in WI won't hurt the fishery, though I do agree it may not be a bad idea to allow it on lakes over a certain acreage and not allow it on small lakes, just so people aren't getting in each other's way on tiny lakes.
Overall, my experience in fishing lakes where trolling allowed is not a lot different than lakes where it isn't allowed.
Tucker |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I'd like to see it passed so we don't have to hash out whether or not we are trolling suckers argument on here every fall...; ) |
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| Reading the blurb from the DNR I note one glaring omission in their so called data, they have none that compares populations of gamefish before and after trolling was allowed. They also do not break down lake types into those with and without suspended forage, nor do they assign trophy fish to trolling or not trolling methods in various lakes. Well, we all know we can't have every bit of data we would like, and hate to say it but fisheries science is some of the holiest of all science, because there are tremendous gaps in data and difficulty in obtaining data.
The paper does note that the fish harvested in non trolling waters are an inch bigger than the trolling waters. It also notes that 64% of musky fisherman trolled at some point in the season in the trolling water now existing, but indicates 91% will troll if all waters are opened to trolling. That seems to me that trolling will increase pressure, since I do not believe that increase can totally be explained by changing systems. And where is the focus of that increased pressure going to be?
The paper also makes the somewhat humorous suggestion that trolling may be associated with an improved size structure, due to it's comparison of WI waters, vs MI, MN, Canadian waters, LOL, so I am guessing the next thing will be that the world record association(whichever fairy tale you believe in)will come out in favor of trolling throughout WI to increase the size of WI muskies.
I have little faith in most of the comparisons done by the DNR on this matter, and I am surprised somewhat by the tilt of opinion in this paper. It is clearly NOT a DNR issue in terms of some certain lakes getting raped and diminished in quality, nor is it an issue for them as to whether the potential for conflicts increases. Looking at this I am projecting that many of the conflicts are going to be native vs tourist based conflicts, and I see quite a bit of the push FOR trolling, to be mounted by outsiders, both resident and non resident, but not in-county residents. I have rarely heard bar talk(the true fish and game scientists, as we are all aware) by residents, complaining that they can't troll on local lakes.
It seems disingenuos of the DNR to present data like this, when the trolling waters have been trolled for years, and the non trolling waters have not been trolled, and then saying catch rate is the same. Show the catch rate and population figures, before and after some small lake gets opened up to trolling, and the guides start going through it for fish pictures and publicity, and the meat hunters have also run through it and cleared out a hithero sheltered population, of not only musky, but also walleye and smallmouth, and then we can talk apples and apples instead of apples and oranges.
Color me skeptical. |
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| "It also notes that 64% of musky fisherman trolled at some point in the season in the trolling water now existing, but indicates 91% will troll if all waters are opened to trolling. That seems to me that trolling will increase pressure..."
No, it was a survey of muskie guys who were already musky fishing, it simply shows a shift in how they might target them, not an increase in pressure. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | curleytail - 2/28/2013 10:46 AM
I've hesitated replying to this since I agree some with both sides of the arguement. I think rather than give much opinion I'll share what I have seen from a trolling perspective.
I've lived and fished in Chippewa and Sawyer county, WI. Both areas allow trolling. Most waters in Chippewa could be trolled and about 1/2 of them that I regularly fish in Sawyer can be trolled. On the waters that allow trolling, I have never seen pontoons with masts, charter boats dragging multiple fish around, etc. Even if somebody is trolling it's not often that you hear their motor as most trollers are using a kicker or 4 stroke outboard and unless they are right on top of you, can't easily be heard.
Most people still are not trolling even on lakes where it's legal. Some are, but I would say maybe up to 25% are trolling. Most musky guys are casting and most walleye guys around here seem to anchor and toss out slip bobbers.
My limited experience in Vilas has been that I have not encountered a lot of people on the water. I'm somewhat aware that this can depend on the area of Vilas you are fishing. Anyway, I think the lack of people on the water comes from... lack of people in the area. Allowing trolling isn't going to attract more people to the area I don't believe. Also, I fish a couple waters from 3,000 to 5,000 acres. Most guys that troll toss out a few flat lines or maybe a small set of inline planer boards. I don't think you'll see the huge spread of mast system trolling unless you get on Lake superior, Green bay, Mille Lacs, etc.
The trollers have kept their distance from me just as well and often times better than casters. Any form of pleasure watercraft is a much greater concern to disrupting my fishing than a trolling fisherman, 95% of the time.
Do I think trolling should be allowed statewide? I'm not really sure. One thing I do know is it would be nice to be able to fish suckers in the fall (vertically) without having to wonder if I'll get in trouble or not. My guess is allowing trolling in WI won't hurt the fishery, though I do agree it may not be a bad idea to allow it on lakes over a certain acreage and not allow it on small lakes, just so people aren't getting in each other's way on tiny lakes.
Overall, my experience in fishing lakes where trolling allowed is not a lot different than lakes where it isn't allowed.
Tucker
Couldn't agree more. I've never had it bother me on any of the metro lakes or rivers or any of the Polk County lakes, where trolling is allowed county-wide. Truthfully, you can pick apart a piece of structure a lot more effectively by casting. Plus, it would simplify the simulataneous sucker/casting regs.
Won't affect me either way, and I really don't care. I hate trolling and probably won't do it anyway. |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Sure seems like pressure will increase based on this thread alone by how many are for it. I am sure those for it plan to fish some lakes they generally currently do not fish as now they will be able to troll it.
Fishing that super deep, clear lake is daunting to some unless they could troll it. Pressure will definitely increase on some of these waters.
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Location: Mayville, WI | You have a pool of 100 muskie angler, currently 50 cast & 50 troll. This reg passes and now 30 cast and 70 troll. You have the same 100 guys fishing for the same species, just with an added tool. Pressure has not increased, just the change on how they are targeted has.
Sure, some individual lakes may see more or less pressure, but it will even out. I'm personally on the fence on this one. I enjoy row trolling, but if it passes it will probably make it easier to decide which boat to bring. |
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| Moltisanti - 2/28/2013 11:35 AM
Won't affect me either way, and I really don't care. I hate trolling and probably won't do it anyway.
I'm with Moltisanti on this one, I don't like trolling and I won't do it anyway, but how many of you who are opposed to this would troll if it was allowed?
Jaimy |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | BMuskyX - 2/28/2013 12:20 PM
Moltisanti - 2/28/2013 11:35 AM
Won't affect me either way, and I really don't care. I hate trolling and probably won't do it anyway.
I'm with Moltisanti on this one, I don't like trolling and I won't do it anyway, but how many of you who are opposed to this would troll if it was allowed?
Jaimy
I absolutely would as I would be foolish not to. No doubt it would increase my success on some waters once I figure out what I am doing. There is a reason Gelb chooses to row troll. One of the reason I am against it is the same reason I would do it.
Edited by CiscoKid 2/28/2013 12:29 PM
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Location: Smith Creek | CiscoKid - 2/28/2013 12:27 PM
BMuskyX - 2/28/2013 12:20 PM
Moltisanti - 2/28/2013 11:35 AM
Won't affect me either way, and I really don't care. I hate trolling and probably won't do it anyway.
I'm with Moltisanti on this one, I don't like trolling and I won't do it anyway, but how many of you who are opposed to this would troll if it was allowed?
Jaimy
I absolutely would as I would be foolish not to. No doubt it would increase my success on some waters once I figure out what I am doing. There is a reason Gelb chooses to row troll. One of the reason I am against it is the same reason I would do it.
Agreed. I troll plenty now. I just do it where the DNR and citizens decided they wanted it allowed. I don't have to look far to find places to troll.
Edited by Flambeauski 2/28/2013 12:38 PM
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| Row trolling seems like it is a 1800's thing not something you do in 2013. |
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Agreed. I troll plenty now. I just do it where the DNR and citizens decided they wanted it allowed. I don't have to look far to find places to troll.
Exactly! You don't have to look far, so why have the same regulations on every body of water. There is plenty of lakes to troll, why not let the other half keep a few casting only lakes? No one is trying to take trolling away from any lakes that it's allowed on now!
Jaimy |
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| I think Travis brings up a very good point. There are small lakes that have fantastic populations of muskies that are basically untapped. They are as such, because the best way to target those fish in those particular ecosystems would be to troll. I have no doubt that opening those lakes to motor trolling would definitely have a negative affect on those fisheries.
As for the mess that "position fishing" has created in people's minds? It's really pretty simple. A warden can tell if you're moving your boat around a piece of structure with suckers that are vertical most of the time vs dragging them around behind the boat. I only know a few guys who have ever gotten tickets, and that's because they were clearly not operating within the provisions of the law. |
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Location: Hudson, WI | CiscoKid - 2/28/2013 12:27 PM
BMuskyX - 2/28/2013 12:20 PM
Moltisanti - 2/28/2013 11:35 AM
Won't affect me either way, and I really don't care. I hate trolling and probably won't do it anyway.
I'm with Moltisanti on this one, I don't like trolling and I won't do it anyway, but how many of you who are opposed to this would troll if it was allowed?
Jaimy
I absolutely would as I would be foolish not to. No doubt it would increase my success on some waters once I figure out what I am doing. There is a reason Gelb chooses to row troll. One of the reason I am against it is the same reason I would do it.
In some cases it would increase your success. In others, it wouldn't. I can go out and troll the Croix anytime I want, and will do it on some occasions. But #1, to troll effectively is not to put a rod in the holder, sandwich in one hand, beer in the other. If that's the way you troll, you ain't going to be making much of a dent in the muskie population because your chances of getting bit are not good. Probably less than a guy tossing a bucktail on his spinning rod off of a pontoon ( aka the common setup for Lake Minnetonka.)
Good trolling, 2 lines to a guy...you probably have a deep diving crank on a board on the deep side, a bucktail on the shallow board, shallow invader or something being pumped in tandem on the shallow side by one guy, and the other guy with a medium depth bait, on the outside. Driving 3-4 mph, eyes on the electronics, weaving in and out of boats, constantly cleaning weeds off, re-setting boards. Not to mention you're not going to see a fish or set the hook on one. It's just a royal pain in the ass and it's not fun anyway.
There is a lot of structure that trolling would be far less effective anyway. |
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Location: 31 | BMuskyX - 2/28/2013 12:20 PM Moltisanti - 2/28/2013 11:35 AM Won't affect me either way, and I really don't care. I hate trolling and probably won't do it anyway. I'm with Moltisanti on this one, I don't like trolling and I won't do it anyway, but how many of you who are opposed to this would troll if it was allowed? Jaimy I would!!! One huge benefit would be the buzz and excitement it would create for the local businesses in this depressed economy… I'm sure they could use a shot in the arm these days. Time to get out and vote, let the majority rule! |
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Location: 31 | BMuskyX - 2/28/2013 1:15 PM Agreed. I troll plenty now. I just do it where the DNR and citizens decided they wanted it allowed. I don't have to look far to find places to troll. Exactly! You don't have to look far, so why have the same regulations on every body of water. There is plenty of lakes to troll, why not let the other half keep a few casting only lakes? No one is trying to take trolling away from any lakes that it's allowed on now! Jaimy “why have the same regulations on every body of water.” I'll throw it right back at you... why not have the same set of regulations for every body of water? Think of the extra administrative work being done by the WDNR yearly, and the game wardens having to keep track of which lakes to enforce for nothing more than a silly outdated tradition. Why is row trolling acceptable but not motor trolling?
“There is plenty of lakes to troll, why not let the other half keep a few casting only lakes?” There is nothing being “lost”… nobody is taking casting out of the equation.
Obviously the WDNR is of the opinion that it's time to let go of a tradition, or they would not have said what they said.
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Location: Hayward, WI | Why NOT have the same set of regulations? Well, the lakes in my area have different regarding bag limits and size limits, some even different seasons than others. All are based on the lake and what the DNR feels is the best way to manage that particular body of water.
I sure hope the wardens we have are capable enough to know the laws on the lakes in their areas and enforce them properly. Heck, if they aren't sure, they can take a look at the regs at the landing which post bag limits and whether or not trolling is allowed. |
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| NO! Musky fishing in Oneida and Vilas is pretty darn good these days. LEAVE IT BE! |
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| Jerry Newman - 2/28/2013 1:48 PM
[...] I'll throw it right back at you... why not have the same set of regulations for every body of water? [...]
The simple answer is because every lake is different. |
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| Wisconsin needs to focus on more important things like legalizing marijuana. Those laws are "old tradition" too. When is the last time you heard of someone that got into a car crash because they were high? Oh that's right, it doesn't happen.
If you want to troll go to a lake that allows it. Just say "NO" at the spring hearings this year. |
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| Guest - 2/28/2013 2:08 PM
Wisconsin needs to focus on more important things like legalizing marijuana. Those laws are "old tradition" too. When is the last time you heard of someone that got into a car crash because they were high? Oh that's right, it doesn't happen.
If you want to troll go to a lake that allows it. Just say "NO" at the spring hearings this year.
This is a perfect example of the thought process behind "no trolling", love it. BR |
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