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Posts: 8
| ManitouDan - 6/25/2024 10:37 AM
guys are allowed to fish anyway they want as long as following the law .. but there are many ways to skirt the law , and many times tech is ahead of the laws . My opinion , just an opinion , I've followed many muskie fishing legends -- for several decades as they come and go . I've known 1 popular guide and fished with him before he exited college 20 plus years ago .( he writes many articles and speaks at many shows) My point is I'm no newcomer .. and I've never heard of anyone coming close to catching a muskie every 6 hours without the help of FFS .. no one catches muskie like that . Ever . Period . So its not simply " I put my time in " or I'm really in tune with the pattern " or good stocking its FFS . Trying to sell it as anything other than FFS is disingenuous IMO. Imagine 10 guys catch a 2000 out of your states stocked lakes .. you think thats a good thing ? I'm not on board .
I don't think it's a good thing. I'm sure 10 guys do catch 2k fish in a year. 1 guide I think caught 400 last year alone. I've found that over the years, as long as it's legal I don't really care anymore. Used to bother me guys catching all these fish mid summer with really hot water temps in particular but anymore it is what it is. I wouldn't doubt a guy could put a fish per 6 hours if he's staying on the bite. Before kids I used to fish lots of club tournaments and outings and can remember one body of water where a trolling bite picks up. Guy caught 15+ fish in 2 days. 2 rods, not even using line counters, just knew the water well. I guess my point is sadly, our waters aren't as protected bec they are essentially artificially stocked and maintained for the pleasure of fisherman. So what impact does ffs matter for these waters id wonder? I'm not saying we shouldn't practice conservation and take care of the fish but is the impact to these waters as significant to natural reproducing lakes? |
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| Just curious as far as a guide catching 400 .. I'd guess thats in a season, not by June 15 or so , and that including fishing with 1-2 clients each and every day ? And yes hot periods happen , 15 fish in 2 days happens .. but 200 by mid June doesnt . Lets be honest .. its targeting or sniping fish , whatever you want to call it . Guys chasing fish with their screens . |
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| I can't speak to to the guy catching 200 by mid June. Other than maybe sucks for the guys like me who used to be out there all the time, but kids family life took priority and my trips are much fewer and far between, so maybe I have less success if catch rates have increased for others. That's probably always the case to some extent but more drastic with the help of ffs perhaps (more time on the water equals more fish.) I guess another push for ffs for guys like me who used to be out there every week no matter the weather for years, now times more limited until kids get older, should I use ffs to help me get into more action until the time comes and I'm back on the water all the time? |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | jburns - 6/25/2024 1:48 PM
I can't speak to to the guy catching 200 by mid June. Other than maybe sucks for the guys like me who used to be out there all the time, but kids family life took priority and my trips are much fewer and far between, so maybe I have less success if catch rates have increased for others. That's probably always the case to some extent but more drastic with the help of ffs perhaps (more time on the water equals more fish.) I guess another push for ffs for guys like me who used to be out there every week no matter the weather for years, now times more limited until kids get older, should I use ffs to help me get into more action until the time comes and I'm back on the water all the time?
Basically, you don't have to do any work with FFS. So for the next few years you just sharp shoot and realize how easy it is. Then when you have more time you'll have pressured fish to cast at without FFS. You may find it's just too much work and go back to the FFS. Only now you have plenty of time. But your catch rates didn't go up because the fish have been beat up for so long that they really don't bite anything anymore. |
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Posts: 127
| I don't quite understand the concept of "put and take" with muskie stocking. The "take" part is confusing to me. Do people target them with the intention of harvesting and eating them? That's what they did 40 years ago when they had the Leech Lake Massecres. Seems like we should know a little more about the subject now.
Put and take stocking with trout and walleye makes sense. They're targeted for harvest. Muskies being targeted for food doesn't appeal to me. And I'm not really sure why it would appeal to anyone else either. |
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| No one really "takes" the clubs work hard to support stocking these Ohio lakes. I think the state looks at it and references in such a manner as , it's for everyone and if someone keeps a small fish because it's a trophy to them, well thats ok because the fishery is for everyone to enjoy in their own way. Especially because it's an artificially supported fishery when you boil it down.
Kirby, if I do or don't use ffs won't those fish be pressured and beat in that timeframe regardless of how I fish. Apparently there are guys catching 200 fish in these lakes solo by mid season (good for them) and guides going to the same lakes putting up big numbers as well. Sounds pretty pressured with our without me getting on the water in meager spare time. Seems like ffs would be a reasonable option for someone like me. Assuming I'm not sharp shooting just hitting my old milk runs and seeing if there are fish present while fishing them regardless. |
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| Kirby Budrow - 6/25/2024 2:07 PM jburns - 6/25/2024 1:48 PM I can't speak to to the guy catching 200 by mid June. Other than maybe sucks for the guys like me who used to be out there all the time, but kids family life took priority and my trips are much fewer and far between, so maybe I have less success if catch rates have increased for others. That's probably always the case to some extent but more drastic with the help of ffs perhaps (more time on the water equals more fish.) I guess another push for ffs for guys like me who used to be out there every week no matter the weather for years, now times more limited until kids get older, should I use ffs to help me get into more action until the time comes and I'm back on the water all the time? Basically, you don't have to do any work with FFS. So for the next few years you just sharp shoot and realize how easy it is. Then when you have more time you'll have pressured fish to cast at without FFS. You may find it's just too much work and go back to the FFS. Only now you have plenty of time. But your catch rates didn't go up because the fish have been beat up for so long that they really don't bite anything anymore. Bingo! It's kind've sad but I think this is the direction many if not most fisheries are going. I'm not complaining at all but I'm so lucky that I got to experience MN fishing from 2004 to 2016. The unbelievable fishing that my fishing partners and I experienced pre-livescope will be hard to beat. |
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Location: SE/WI | gimruis - 6/25/2024 4:05 PM
I don't quite understand the concept of "put and take" with muskie stocking. The "take" part is confusing to me. Do people target them with the intention of harvesting and eating them? That's what they did 40 years ago when they had the Leech Lake Massecres. Seems like we should know a little more about the subject now.
Put and take stocking with trout and walleye makes sense. They're targeted for harvest. Muskies being targeted for food doesn't appeal to me. And I'm not really sure why it would appeal to anyone else either.
Put and take stockings are because of zero to limited natural reproduction on bodies of water. So we stock them to keep building the population over the years. Most bodies of water that I fish are 48-50" and even 54" limit nobody is taking. One body of water has a 40" limit and can tell you that there were definitely people taking them to eat and bragging about it years ago. Same body of water that was stocked since late 70's was also pillaged by the DNR for the Lake Geneva Musky Program, where they took anything they could net over 40" to Geneva. Combination of the two really destroyed the strong population it had and flipped the musky/pike ratio for the worse. |
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| Baby Mallard - 6/25/2024 7:17 PM
{...}>Bingo! It's kind've sad but I think this is the direction many if not most fisheries are going. I'm not complaining at all but I'm so lucky that I got to experience MN fishing from 2004 to 2016. The unbelievable fishing that my fishing partners and I experienced pre-livescope will be hard to beat.
I think that's more to do with those initial year classes of fish growing up in a system with no competition for resources. And when they started to get big in the early 2000's it was a fishery like few had seen before followed by the great unwashed public descending onto those lakes like a plague. If you could remove all the muskies and remove all the anglers, and re-stock fish in the same numbers as before it would probably be as good as it ever was. Might have to re-stock some forage though.. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | esoxaddict - 6/25/2024 9:16 PM
Baby Mallard - 6/25/2024 7:17 PM
{...}>Bingo! It's kind've sad but I think this is the direction many if not most fisheries are going. I'm not complaining at all but I'm so lucky that I got to experience MN fishing from 2004 to 2016. The unbelievable fishing that my fishing partners and I experienced pre-livescope will be hard to beat.
I think that's more to do with those initial year classes of fish growing up in a system with no competition for resources. And when they started to get big in the early 2000's it was a fishery like few had seen before followed by the great unwashed public descending onto those lakes like a plague. If you could remove all the muskies and remove all the anglers, and re-stock fish in the same numbers as before it would probably be as good as it ever was. Might have to re-stock some forage though..
Addict, have you fished northern minnesota much the last 5 years? |
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Posts: 2024
| If there was a new lure calling in the fishies and everyone was catching 4 a day, you boomers would be all over it. Paying $300 a pop for it. Instead, here ya are griping about technology advances. What happened to the discussions about the best reel for double 10s?
Ban the guides using it. Simple, easier to enforce, and will save a majority of the fish from being harassed and delayed mortality.
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| To everyone using FFS for "ethical " purposes, such as eliminating non productive water. When you find fish, do you turn the unit off? Asking for a friend. |
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Posts: 19
| I think the main issue with the increased technology like FFS is not that technology is inherently bad but rather that, unless musky populations are growing along with the new technology, it becomes a net negative on the population and you can end up worse off in the long run. If increased technology was helping musky fishing, you'd expect to see the quality of musky fishing and catch rates continually increasing over time but that is clearly not the case in most places. I think most logical anglers would trade reduced technology for the fishing quality of 15-20 years ago.
Regarding limiting just guides, I'm not sure that would do that much considering I'd suspect that the percentage of total muskies caught by guides has shrunk over time as the average angler is far more knowledgeable and equipped than they were historically.
If bait technology was developed that created some electronic vibration muskies could not resist and it was combined with future iterations of FFS that could locate every musky in the lake that would be problematic and I'd suspect most fishermen would support limitations on it. There are already hook and line number limitations in most places.
Edited by xcskier_hunter 6/26/2024 11:05 AM
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs |
Basically, you don't have to do any work with FFS. .
Really? Is it possible you're stretching this a BIT?
Work you need to do:
Spend $3K+ for FFS set up
Have a boat to put FFS on
Travel to lakes that have muskies (they're not everywhere)
Know or learn where the fish are that you're going to sharpshoot
Find the fish
Find fish that will open their mouths (yes, F-ing with them MIGHT get them to eat eventually, but a fish that doesn't want to eat, won't eat. Seen it with a live sucker enough times to know there is no sure fire way to get them to eat)
Drive hooks in when they do eat.
Fight fish without losing the fish.
Not F up the net job.
OR, am I wrong and pulling up to the ramp with FFS on your boat causes all adult muskies to immediately race to the ramp to sacrifice themselves? If so, I need to sell some stuff to get up to date! |
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| I’ll just use 1 of the 3 program lakes I live close to as an example. Lake is 3,200 acres, gets stocked each year and has for a really long time at 1 advanced fingerling EACH year at 1 per acre. Not all survive, some are killed, kept ect. But there are easy 5,000 plus 30”+ musky in said lake. Lake has a huge shad population that more than supports the rest of the fish.
To the above question about seeing sizes increase, in the last 3-4 years in my chapter the average size has increased and with more big fish each year. Stocked lakes vs natural reproduction water is different in my opinion in parts of this debate.
For comparison the first year living and fishing in OH, I did not have FFS also didn’t know anything about the lakes or have anyone helping me, I averaged 1 musky per 8.1 hours fishing. I spent almost all of that year on one lake breaking it down and learning it and what the musky we’re doing. Year 2 I spent majority of my time on lake #2 learning it, with the occasional trip back to lake #1. That was hard to make myself do, but I sure learned a lot kept a very good log notes ect. That I still refer to sometimes. Sometime in year 2 I got FFS, fast forward to year 4, I’m averaging 1 per 6 hours on the water.
Edited by OH Muskyman 6/26/2024 12:33 PM
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Slamr - 6/26/2024 12:17 PM
Basically, you don't have to do any work with FFS. .
Really? Is it possible you're stretching this a BIT?
Work you need to do:
Spend $3K+ for FFS set up
Have a boat to put FFS on
Travel to lakes that have muskies (they're not everywhere)
Know or learn where the fish are that you're going to sharpshoot
Find the fish
Find fish that will open their mouths (yes, F-ing with them MIGHT get them to eat eventually, but a fish that doesn't want to eat, won't eat. Seen it with a live sucker enough times to know there is no sure fire way to get them to eat)
Drive hooks in when they do eat.
Fight fish without losing the fish.
Not F up the net job.
OR, am I wrong and pulling up to the ramp with FFS on your boat causes all adult muskies to immediately race to the ramp to sacrifice themselves? If so, I need to sell some stuff to get up to date!
......................
Yup, daddy bought the boat, truck and sonar. Or not...either way there was no "fishing related work". And anyone who knows anything about muskies in MN knows where to find them. None of the other things you describe are work. Setting the hook is not work. It's fun. You get to skip all the work involved like time on the water, constant casting, figuring out the spots. The spots are figured out for you, first by someone giving you the spot, then dialing it in on the sonar which takes no time.
Slamr, have you been to MN and tried sharp shooting? I really don't think you understand how easy it is. It's really like shooting fish in a barrel. Seriously, you can plop a bait down on 100 fish in a day in the right conditions and lake and catch 10 with maybe a year or two of experience vs how you know how to fish. I assume you have been fishing muskies for a very long time and have gained the experience to have a few really good days in a given year. Maybe you catch 3 fish and that's an excellent day of fishing. As it should be. It's nothing like that now. Nothing about FFS is fair to the fish but unfortunately it's very difficult to catch fish on Vermilion without it now. I don't even blame people for using it. But it has been detrimental to the fish and takes the fun and mystery out of muskie fishing. I've said it before but you can almost do a population estimate in a basin in one day of fishing with the scope. Grid it and count. Of course you will not find all of them, but when most of them are in open water in certain times of year it would be pretty accurate.
Now the reports I'm hearing from leech sound like Vermilion was a few years ago. The poor lake has floaters all over and people just driving around scoping. 10 years ago nobody even fished leech in june because they thought the fish just didn't bite. But they found them now and survival is poor. And that's the motherland of Minnesota muskies on target to be destroyed.
Edited by Kirby Budrow 6/26/2024 1:22 PM
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Location: Contrarian Island | Yah I think the guys that aren't against sharp shooting are either A, very selfish, and / or B not looking into the future. I have been hearing stories of big dead floaters from Sharp Shooters this season and that is with a small % of the guys out there doing it, wait til most are doing it.. you'll have a bunch of rich kids with 3 scopes on their boat sharp shooting and big dumb fish choking down tubes and we'll see more and more dead ones... with stocking pretty much everywhere going down, and this new sharp shooting bs running rampant, the population is bound to decline ... It is not a good thing long term. at all.. pretty much every guide in northern WI and MN now has multiple scope units and that is pretty much all they are doing currently... sad.
it is as close to shooting fish in a barrel as can be... I truly hope the DNR does make the tactic of sharp shooting illegal some day.
Edited by BNelson 6/26/2024 1:42 PM
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Just to clarify: I am against sharpshooting.
I'm also against:
-fishing when the water temps are above 80 degrees
-fishing below spill ways
-sucker fishing with a single hook.
-bonking legal sized fish
BUT none of these things are banned.
Education on how catching deep water fish harms them...that could fix the issues you're seeing. Trying to ban FFS from Joe Angler is just not going to happen. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I disagree. I believe a law could be written to ban the tactic. |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | And while I'm with y'all to educate the masses against FFS sharpshooting in deep water...saying this:
Yup, daddy bought the boat, truck and sonar. Or not...either way there was no "fishing related work". And anyone who knows anything about muskies in MN knows where to find them. None of the other things you describe are work. Setting the hook is not work. It's fun. You get to skip all the work involved like time on the water, constant casting, figuring out the spots. The spots are figured out for you, first by someone giving you the spot, then dialing it in on the sonar which takes no time
You sound like an old man saying "the youngins didnt have to work for it like we did". Maybe focus more on the reality of the harm deep water catches put on fish versus in shallower water. Just sayin' |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | BNelson - 6/26/2024 2:48 PM
I disagree. I believe a law could be written to ban the tactic.
Maybe, but enforcement? Not sure how often you see the DNR up in MN, but in 30 years of muskie fishing (badly) I've been stopped maybe 6 or 7 times for even a license check. And once for too many weeds on my trailer...while driving down the road....chasing Worrall down the road....to a tune of $215.
Just saying it might be easier to legislate it out by showing the negative affects the perpetrators are cuasing the showing that this is an "unethical way" to fish.
MI and all the muskie fisherman who would contribute to the legal case might not equal the lawyering Garmin, Lowrance, Humminbird etc can put up. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Slamr - 6/26/2024 2:50 PM
And while I'm with y'all to educate the masses against FFS sharpshooting in deep water...saying this:
Yup, daddy bought the boat, truck and sonar. Or not...either way there was no "fishing related work". And anyone who knows anything about muskies in MN knows where to find them. None of the other things you describe are work. Setting the hook is not work. It's fun. You get to skip all the work involved like time on the water, constant casting, figuring out the spots. The spots are figured out for you, first by someone giving you the spot, then dialing it in on the sonar which takes no time
You sound like an old man saying "the youngins didnt have to work for it like we did". Maybe focus more on the reality of the harm deep water catches put on fish versus in shallower water. Just sayin'
Is that not what this whole conversation has been about? The point is that it's easy and anyone who has access to the technology can do this. |
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| If states can regulate trail cameras and drones for hunting then they can regulate electronics usage in fishing. In the age of the smartphone it's not nearly as easy to get away with breaking the law as it used to be.
Perhaps if enough muskies are getting killed in June due to targeting them deep in open water with FFS the state DNRs will respond by delaying the musky season opener to July 1. I'd rather see limitations on technology that enable long seasons but maybe others would rather have no technological limitations and shorter seasons. |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | '
Is that not what this whole conversation has been about? The point is that it's easy and anyone who has access to the technology can do this.
Then we need to work about 10000X harder on education, fund raising for stocking/education/habitat restoration because the world is changing. You have more power in your hands (mobile phone) than the lunar lander had and that is only going to become more and more prevalent.
The idea of "working for something" when there's a technology that skips the work is dying as tech advances, AI leads us to Skynet, and we all live on our screeens.
50 yrs a go, you caught a legal, you killed it. Now, we "know better". Just really believe the answer is education, not working to ban something. |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | xcskier_hunter - 6/26/2024 3:20 PM
If states can regulate trail cameras and drones for hunting then they can regulate electronics usage in fishing. In the age of the smartphone it's not nearly as easy to get away with breaking the law as it used to be.
Perhaps if enough muskies are getting killed in June due to targeting them deep in open water with FFS the state DNRs will respond by delaying the musky season opener to July 1. I'd rather see limitations on technology that enable long seasons but maybe others would rather have no technological limitations and shorter seasons.
Agreed!
But, I guarantee that the DNR/State Gov't is going to need data to support any change.
Oh, to the point of this whole long-@sssed thread: if this is really hurting the resource, the DNR or whatever governing body has the right to legislate this is going to need to see actual data to support your cause. NOT SAYING THE EFFECT ISN"T THERE but I've read a lot (I won't say all) of this thread and other than one person self identifying as a person that catches a ton of fish (good on ya, btw), I have not seen any actual DATA to support what you want to have changed.
"floaters all over", killing the resource, makes the fishing too easy, destroys the ethos of muskie fishing....all these things are scary but without data, it's hearsay and I doubt that's going too far in the hall of gov't.
Yes MI and muskie anglers advocating as a unified body to force change COULD happen, but I'm just not a believer that the muskie fishing community is either A. large enough or B. unified enough to be able to make these kinds of legal changes at a speed that would make any of us happy.
AND, you get data from studies and planned data collection (surveys, etc). That costs money. Raising money takes time and a unified effort.
OR, we could all, IN A POSITIVE, manner teach the benefits of better fish handling and selective catching methods (ie. dont drag'em out of 30' of water). In the age of social media, message boards, newsletters, podcasts, blaa blaa blaa, sending the message of how to use this tech responsibly you could start this tomorrow.
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Location: Contrarian Island | Slamr you go to Eagle right. Hire any of thr guides that are using it and see for yourself. Lots of those guys are sharpshooting too. |
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| There is data that shows musky populations are struggling relative to where we want them in a lot of places. Clearly that is not only the result of FFS/sharpshooting but I think it could be logically argued that making anglers more effective will do nothing to reverse, and likely exacerbate this trend.
Furthermore, states did not wait to see how drones affected hunting harvest rates before banning them, so the idea that there must be definitive proof a technology is detrimental to a resource before limiting it is not necessarily true. If anything, waiting to implement regulations is problematic as once people have accepted the technology it becomes much harder to limit it retroactively.
Realistically, a study might have to be conducted over 20 years to see whether the technology is having a negative effect on muskies as they can live even longer than that.
I do agree that educating people on correct handling makes sense in conjunction with any regulations but I'm not really sure that will be enough on its own.
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Location: Duluth | xcskier_hunter - 6/26/2024 5:19 PM
There is data that shows musky populations are struggling relative to where we want them in a lot of places. Clearly that is not only the result of FFS/sharpshooting but I think it could be logically argued that making anglers more effective will do nothing to reverse, and likely exacerbate this trend.
Furthermore, states did not wait to see how drones affected hunting harvest rates before banning them, so the idea that there must be definitive proof a technology is detrimental to a resource before limiting it is not necessarily true. If anything, waiting to implement regulations is problematic as once people have accepted the technology it becomes much harder to limit it retroactively.
Realistically, a study might have to be conducted over 20 years to see whether the technology is having a negative effect on muskies as they can live even longer than that.
I do agree that educating people on correct handling makes sense in conjunction with any regulations but I'm not really sure that will be enough on its own.
Unfortunately the precautionary principle is a foreign concept, bad pun and all. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Slamr - 6/26/2024 3:26 PM
'
Is that not what this whole conversation has been about? The point is that it's easy and anyone who has access to the technology can do this.
Then we need to work about 10000X harder on education, fund raising for stocking/education/habitat restoration because the world is changing. You have more power in your hands (mobile phone) than the lunar lander had and that is only going to become more and more prevalent.
The idea of "working for something" when there's a technology that skips the work is dying as tech advances, AI leads us to Skynet, and we all live on our screeens.
50 yrs a go, you caught a legal, you killed it. Now, we "know better". Just really believe the answer is education, not working to ban something.
How can you teach the "professionals" who are the ones beating the fish down the most? They have been ridiculed steadily all over social media and they don't care. I'm not going to name names but you have heard of most of them I bet. But one of them did kill a legal for recognition. He claimed it just died. But fish rarely die in November and it happend to be the state record. Hmmmm |
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Location: Contrarian Island | Weighed it first to be sure. 
Edited by BNelson 6/27/2024 8:26 AM
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