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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Snagging isn't much of a problem anymore BECAUSE of the reg change and increased enforcement.
Listen, this post is about trolling. If you have a legitimate argument for the damage that trolling does, did or can do than fine.
I'm pretty sure I never claimed that WI is the only place where there may be regs that aren't based on science. In fact I specifically said I'm opposed to them in MN as well.
So stick to the subject at hand and quit busting my nards over everything else.
JS |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Its about trolling in Wisconsin, not Minnesota. Its been stated.....TRADITION is the force behind the reg and has ZERO to do with damage of the fishery, but for a PRECEPTION of damage or potential damage. The point behind bringing up dumb rules in Minnesota, is simple. Concentrate on those rules YOU deal with in Minnesota and worry less about ours. Become a tax payer here, then spout off about what Wisconsin does or doesn't do. I love crusaders from other states who want to "Save" Wisconsin. |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Dude;
I didn't spout off to anybody..
I already said I don't care what they do in WI.
Sorry I tried to enjoy a discussion about a question you didn't even ask in the first place.
JS |
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| In MN you can't transport live game-fish. Suckers over 12" long are not considered minnows but game fish.
not to split hairs, but suckers over 12" are considered rough fish in MN, not game fish.
some pertinent definitions:
Minnows–
Members of the minnow family, except carp and goldfish; bullheads, ciscoes, lake whitefish, goldeyes, and mooneyes (not over seven inches long); suckers (not over 12 inches long); mud minnows, leeches, tadpole madtoms and stonecats.
Rough fish–
Carp, buffalo, sucker, sheepshead, bowfin, burbot, cisco, gar, goldeye, and bullhead.
Angling Methods-
Using whole or parts of game fish, goldfish, or carp for bait is unlawful.
Transporting Fish-
Except while on the body of water where taken, live fish may not be
transported in a quantity of water sufficient to keep them alive unless the
fish are bait minnows or the person is authorized to do so by the DNR.
why's that matter?
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | This thread should have been locked right after Steve's very first post......"tradition". |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Gander Mt Guide - 9/30/2008 8:24 PM
I love crusaders from other states who want to "Save" Wisconsin.
i just wanted to see it written another time ... |
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| Its about trolling in Wisconsin, not Minnesota. Its been stated.....TRADITION is the force behind the reg and has ZERO to do with damage of the fishery, but for a PRECEPTION of damage or potential damage. The point behind bringing up dumb rules in Minnesota, is simple. Concentrate on those rules YOU deal with in Minnesota and worry less about ours. Become a tax payer here, then spout off about what Wisconsin does or doesn't do. I love crusaders from other states who want to "Save" Wisconsin.
why so defensive about this John? no one's crusading, just commenting.
since i'm from WI i'm allowed to have an opinion but Skarie isn't?
i think the no trolling rule is dumb too. i don't care enough one way or the other to do anything about it, but i'll talk about my opinion and everyone else can too.
This thread should have been locked right after Steve's very first post......"tradition".
why? so people can't express opinions about it that are different than yours?
sheesh...
tradition isn't right or wrong, it just is what it is.
the situation in NW WI is interesting; trolling is allowed on waters that are comparable to many in NE WI, even some quite small lakes, and it hasn't seemed to harm the fishery.
if the regulations aren't about real damage, but rather the perception of damage, isn't talking about it a good way to change perception?
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| If I'm not mistaken, some of those "crusaders" probably sent an e-mail to support the 54" limit on Green Bay. Guess they shouldn't have since it is not their State???? |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | John, that was a serious question from me, can you please point me to the science/study done on spearing. I do not want 'stories' from a DNR office. I want something written, like an actual study. Thanks. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | jason ... would you support overall or are you thinking specific lakes where you think it should change? we may disagree and we may not but i respect your opinion mostly for your years of experience and time out there seeing almost everythign going on. also, what is your opinion of the general consensus of the guides and generational fishermen in the area? ...
Sled,
I would support opening up trolling across the board. If I had my way, offer a $5 trolling stamp, much like a Great Lakes stamp, and with it carried (while trolling) a 50" size limit and 1 over 20" on the walleyes. 1 rod per angler, max 4 per boat. Would be specific to waters where trolling was previously illegal, wouldn't effect the Winnebago guys, Great Lakes, rowtrollers, etc.
'That would be too many regs and too confusing'. Pick up the regs and read for 5 minutes, you'd figure it out.
As far as the word on the street... Definitely a generational gap, in general. 50/50 overall from what I see. The young guys say "I let 'em all go anyway, so who cares. Open it up". The more salty veteran-types say "I was never allowed to troll, so neither should you."
Nothing is going to change. Tradition has it's hold. I respect everyones opinion and can see both sides. I'm heading to Hayward to film with Tanner Wildes and Bill Schwartz for a few days, see you down the road.
JS
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "why? so people can't express opinions about it that are different than yours?
sheesh... "
No, Because he answered the original question with one word "Tradition". |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | how many tourists do you have in nw wisconsin vs. oneida and vilas county mike? ... apple and an almond comparisson |
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| Pointerpride102 - 9/30/2008 8:48 PM
John, that was a serious question from me, can you please point me to the science/study done on spearing. I do not want 'stories' from a DNR office. I want something written, like an actual study. Thanks.
here's your info, Mike.
but it's non-sequitur to this post, so let it lay.
North American Journal of Fisheries Management 2000; 20:239–244
Recreational Darkhouse Spearing for Northern Pike in Minnesota: Historical Changes in Effort and Harvest and Comparisons with Angling
Rodney B. Pierce
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, 1201 East Highway 2, Grand Rapids, Minnesota 55744, USA
Mark F. Cook
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, 2114 Bemidji Avenue, Bemidji, Minnesota 56601, USA
...Creel survey data since 1980 show that...spearing is selective for the larger fish. In comparison with population estimates, spearing removes a small proportion of the total population and biomass of northern pike but an increasing proportion of fish with increasing size...
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Location: The desert | Thanks, I really was looking for documentation on it....no motive to hijack the thread. Thanks. Please commence aruging about trolling. |
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| how many tourists do you have in nw wisconsin vs. oneida and vilas county mike? ... apple and an almond comparisson
that's a fair point, Sled...
pressure, particularly from non-local anglers is higher in NE WI.
is your concern that it would mean more "moving" instead of "stationary" boats, that even more people would come to the area, or that it would make it too "easy" for those tourists to catch (and potentially keep or mishandle) fish?
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Location: minocqua, wi. | lambeau - 9/30/2008 9:30 PM
it would make it too "easy" for those tourists to catch (and potentially keep or mishandle) fish?
Yes ... seasoned musky anglers wouldn't be the concern and never have been. the number of experienced fishermen to the number of one and done fishermen is significant ... i'd prefer that it continue to be more difficult for the catch and kill or catch and drop in the bottom of the boat drive it back to the cabin to show aunt sherlie anglers to do.
remember ... lots of you guys come up for a weekend of fishing and never see the "other fishermen" that are here. it's a saturday to saturday economy in the resort and cabin rental business. they check in on saturday at noon and get settled and by the time you're headed home sunday ... they're in the bleachers for the waterski or lumberjack show ... and all week they're on the water. give them an easy button on some of the more vulnerable lakes (not like lake tom or fence but the others) and you'll increase the harvest significantly with or without 3 lines.
visiting here on weekends and living here and seeing season after season are very different views ... you can say they aren't if you want but they simply are. ask the guys at the muskyshop about what they run into on a weekly basis ... |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | Well, I am glad I dont live there or fish there. Sounds like a communist country. Ban this ,ban that. Put up walls keep people out etc. Dont invade my peacfull space. Like I said before Vilas can have its no trolling laws just leave it there.
There is no reason to bash the method of trolling as the other 90 percent of Musky fishermen from all over the country get offended as I have by your elitest remarks. Remark one Trollers are fish killers(meat hunters) . Remark two, Trollers are stupid,fat and lazy and cant catch fish any other way.
On Border waters trolling is legal on the Michigan side by michigan anglers. Case in point , Smokey Lake. This lake is stocked by the Michigan D.N.R. with northern strain Muskies from our Thornapple lake program. 90 percent of this lake is in Michigan but the boat launch is in Wisconsin. You dont like trollers dont fish there. I will troll this lake when I want ,do you get me??? I paid for the fish in it not you. It is this spill over that angers me to no end. The cry to ban and blame others makes me sick.
I spent 5 days of rainy cold nasty weather last Fall trolling one of Michigans larger northern lakes . I saw one other boat in 5 days. The man and his son were casting for smallmouth. We had been trolling the edges all morning without a rip and decided to pull up and chat with them for a few minutes. They had got a couple we had none. But the guy was pleasant asking us if we had gotten any strikes. Of course we said no but thats Musky fishing. The point is ,this man did not assault us,he did not tell us to leave him alone in fact he relished the chance to chat with a fello nutcase. We were both crazy to be out in those conditions. His son was cold but he was interested in the 12inch baits we had hanging all over the boat. There we were , a bass fisherman and a Musky fisher,several thousand acres of water to share and we had time to chat for a couple of minutes. We exchanged information,wished each other luck and Michelle gave the kid a sandwich and a cup of hot chocolate. We parted ways. You see we were not trollers in his eyes. We were a man and a woman fishing for Muskies.
I have been fishing for 45 years and in all of my life I have never heard anyone bash trolling as a method until this thread. You know, I love casting for Muskies and Pike. Its a great thrill when one comes out of no where and slams my lures. But there are days when the weather or the pain in my back and wrist say its time to troll or go home. There are days when I just want to drift along with a couple of suckers out and enjoy the fact that I am free and living where I do.And there are days when I want to tackle the biggest baddest water in the Musky range and put out the widest spread I can and take my shots at catching a world record.
You see its all good until you come along and start banning stuff. Bashing us and spouting rubbish about people you know nothing about. A fishermans ethics are his calling card,his signature, his footprint so to speak. An ethical fisherman does not troll close to someone who is casting nor does an ethical fisherman race by a troller and pull up in the trollers way cutting him off and expect the troller to go around him. An ethical fisherman only kills what he eats and limits his take so as not to over harvest any body of water. An ethical Fisherman practices what he preaches and does not condemn others but shows by example why he does the things he does.
I fished the eagle river chain once. I left thinking wow could they use a 42 inch size limit. But hey its thier state not mine. So instead I stay on my side of the line where we value the whole experience,where we let our anglers decide how to fish and where trollers and casters pass each other with a smile and a wave. I wish our state had more Musky waters. Our Muskies inc chapter 47 has accomplished tons but still we are lacking in funds to buy a airation system for our broke D.N.R. to try to bring 60,000 fall fingerlings to our lakes in 2008. I look forard to casting ,fishing live bait and TROLLING for them. Its all good. Kingfisher
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| ahh...AMEN!!!! |
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Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | "On Border waters trolling is legal on the Michigan side by michigan anglers."
From page 13 of the Michigan DNR Regulations book...What's even more disgusting than people ripping others for the type of fishing they do, is people who refuse to read their own regulations, then preach to others about how they can troll here and there....So mr kingfisher.........this is for you.
Read this page. Notice how your favorite lake, Smokey is listed in these regulations as a boarder lake between Michigan and Vilas Co.
Please, for the love of God, read the third to last bullet point on where you can troll..please, I'm begging you. There it is in black and white.
EDITED, But not by me.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 10/1/2008 12:55 PM
Attachments
----------------
 MI-WI-boundary-waters_229790_7.pdf (48KB - 2390 downloads)
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Posts: 366
| Well I guess I got my money's worth with this question. Thanks for all the posts, not that I expect them to stop, although I at least would have expected them to slow down by now. I've read every post, and I've certainly learned alot about the issue. Maybe more than I wanted to? I guess I've come to realize that may happen when you ask questions of delicate issues. Although I didn't really see this as Roe v. Wade when I asked it, and really thought it was sort of a dead issue. I stand corrected.
I really can't make any specific comments on the issue, of a place I may never see in my lifetime. Nor debate the individual comments of great fishermen I may never meet or fish with. Actually at this point in the conversation I don't think that the issue now being discussed has much to do with trolling. In my opinion the issue has more to do with something I learned as a kid. Two wrongs don't equal a right.
Ryan |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
In regards to the "crusaders trying to save WI' comment;
My MI club has donated a lot of money to WI chapters to initiate a tagging program to study Leech and WI fish in WI.
Maybe we'll think twice next year about sending MN money to a state where it's not welcome or appreciated.
(probably will still send it, but hopefully you get the point.)
Lambeau; You're correct, suckers over 12" are rough fish, but still cannot be transported live he same as gamefish. The reasoning is to prevent people from going from lake to lake with water in livewells in the hopes of helping curb exotics from spreading.
I'm not sure why it's o.k. to keep water in baitwells with minnows and not in livewells, but that's the way it's been explained to us.
I guess from now on we should lock threads out to people not from WI when that is the subject at hand.
It'll save us ignorant MN guys from looking stupid.
JS
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| Traditions Smradition!
I feel like their is an 800# gorilla in the room that nobody wants to recognize.
Before the great "traditions" of the no-trolling in WI, their was of course the tradition of trolling in WI. So obviously the presidents has been set to break tradition.
If the absolute best interest in the fish and fishery was truely at hand, single hooked rigs would be illegal.
I have seen countless threads on all musky boards about the rudeness of "todays fishermen" where they would jump ahead of your boat and casts, so pointing a finger then at a trolling boat saying they are less educated, ethical, rude, does not hold any merit.
Then to say trolling kills more fish is absolutely absurd.
As stated on this thread from some of the WI locals, the viewing coolers are still tradition.
OK, I'll recognize the gorilla. The problem simply in WI is the lack of education by the angler feeling it is their right to continue killing fish.
Make single hooked rigs illegal.
Increase size limits.
Advocate reproduction mounts. Break the "tradition" that replicas are of lesser stature.
To be honest, I find all of these WI fishery issues silly. One week, a 100 post thread comes out about how trolling kills fish and it should be illegal and everybody who trolls is unethical, cheating, a fish killer....then the next week, some guy thumps a nice fish and people get in line to congratulate him. When somebody questions why he killed it, all hell breaks loose that it is his "legal right", "he earned it".
Pick a lane! |
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| i know i've mentioned this before in other similarly heated discussions, but it applies and is worth mentioning again.
there has been brain-imagery research done with interesting results. when people are presented with political information that is from a different perspective than their own, the emotion centers of their brain activate strongly and the cognition centers of their brain activate only weakly. ie., people's response to contrary political information is emotional and not rational.
you can easily infer that any issue about which people have strongly held beliefs will work in the same way...including whether or not trolling should be allowed in northeast Wisconsin.
so ask yourself, is what i'm about to say based on my emotional response to someone saying something different than me, or am i objectively looking at the situation?
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'OK, I'll recognize the gorilla. The problem simply in WI is the lack of education by the angler feeling it is their right to continue killing fish.'
That's simply not true. The release rate here in Wisconsin is as good or better than anywhere else in the US, and we have more 50" limit waters than MN with less water producing numbers of 50" fish. Muskie anglers got that done here, plain and simple. If one was to use simplistic arguments without alot of basis in or consideration for data and percentages, the argument could be made there are more trophy muskies harvested in Minnesota than in Wisconsin. The statement in context to the arguments here makes little sense, those who are arguing against trolling frequently state one reason they oppose IS more fish will be killed.
'Picking a lane' isn't a Wisconsin necessity; that cuts across all of the sport.
I believe I stated there is no scientific support for the idea trolling is any greater threat to the fish than casting. I believe others stated that as well.
I don't see many bait store coolers anymore. The one I used to see that was the most spectacular was in Nisswa, MN. That one is gone now too.
It IS legal to harvest a Muskie in WI, just like MN, and everywhere else except for a couple C&R lakes. Harvest happens on ALL those waters, and the argument that is the angler's legal right is an on target bullseye. It is. Yet most of the muskies caught in WI are released.
Trolling in much of N WI is NOT legal. I don't see anyone supporting breaking the law. I see folks arguing points of view, and that's good.
Most of the time when you see a post supporting legal rights here in WI or anywhere else, it's in answer to a rude, mean spirited bash by someone who thinks ALL harvest of ANY muskie is wrong. There's great arguments about the science of it there, too. That's an argument for Winternet, fortunately.
I don't find discussing Wisconsin fishing issues silly, I find it constructive and interesting, and what has been said here to date reinforces my original statement that the reason I can't troll on Julia or Goorge or Pelican or Boom this weekend with my 99.Pro Kicker is simple...
Tradition. |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
It's completely understandable that responses to different views is emotional as well as rational.
What isn't understandable, is why those emotions are then targeted to the individual, ie where they are from, who they are etc.
Attacking the messenger does not make your opinion right and their opinion wrong.
It just shows how disrespectful you are towards those that don't agree with you.
JS
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| It's completely understandable that responses to different views is emotional as well as rational.
What isn't understandable, is why those emotions are then targeted to the individual, ie where they are from, who they are etc.
Attacking the messenger does not make your opinion right and their opinion wrong.
It just shows how disrespectful you are towards those that don't agree with you.
exactly.
the tonic is to for everyone to think about their response before hitting "send" and make sure it's targeting the issue and not the person.
despite the fact that people seem to think we relish it, editing out "you're from somewhere else so you're an ignorant cuss" type namecalling gets old, very very old.
none of us are perfect at it; we can all commit to trying to respect the other person, even if we don't accept their point of view.
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| Steve,
You are absolutely right that I am without any scientific data. And to be perfectly honest, I do not even fish these waters.
So I guess the question is then, why is trolling illegal? I've seen the simple answer of "traditions", but like I said in my post, it was legal before, so tradition can be broken.
The answer of "tradition" seems to be alot like being a kid and having your father give you the "because I said so!" line. I'm not infering that there is a right or wrong answer (believe me, my dad was always right), but given the question, the answer continues to come back that trollers kill too many fish.
I also agree with you on the winternet items. We have approximately 61 days for that to begin. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Why do we have Tradition heavily influencing our management of the fisheries in WI? The Conservation Congress. It IS the public making policy many times, and that sword cuts both ways. Look at Tbetca's battle with many others to raise the size limit to 54" in BOGB, where according to the fisheries folks there isn't a biological reason to do so under the current management model. Then look at the outcry when herbie, me, and a few others caught some really big fish backtrolling, and a few folks thought it was an 'unfair' thing to do. No more fish were harvested trolling that shoresitting, I'd wager. That was another time and offered a different conservation ethic than in place today, so the entire argument is based on what WAS, not what IS, other than....
The idea trolling will disturb the peace and quiet on our little lakes.
A comment was made WI seems 'communistic' in it's regulations. Exactly the opposite, talking actual practice of Communism and not theoretical; the public has HUGE input here and the arguments do not even have to make scientific sense to win the day. |
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| it's illegal because enough people want it to be illegal. whether they base their opinions on tradition or science is in some ways irrelevent. the bottom line is more people want it to be that way.
if you want it changed, start a campaign in the Conservation Congress and try to gather enough support/votes to advise the DNR to change the rule.
my guess is that changing this particular rule would get voted down quickly and overwhelmingly, especially if it were attempted on a large scale. now, similar to the 50" proposals, if it were attempted one lake at a time you might stand some chance of success.
in my home area of Colombia Co trolling is also illegal, a rarity for a southern WI county. there's one particular lake near me that (imho) could easily support trolling and being able to do so would add value for many people. i've considered proposing such a change at next spring's meeting, but first i'm attempting to garner support from the local stakeholders including the county CCC board president.
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| so it's back to being a kid and having your dad tell you because "he says so and that's why!"?
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