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Posts: 39
| Iv trolled quite a bit this year on a fast moving river. While we have hooked a few, way more fish come from casting or jigging. I'm trolling 3-5 mph and varrying speeds. I have tried depth divers, legends, swim whizzs straight and jointed, bakers, grandmas, and jakes. Iv trolled 15-25 feet along structure, etc.
Everyone has told me to "bang bottom" to be as close to bottom as possible. I have also trolled against current, with the current, and across the current.
All season it seems I'll get two rods out, start to troll, and before long iv caught weeds on one of my poles or both. It's very frustrating and I usually get upset and go back to casting.
Is it absolutely important I am 1-5 feet off bottom? What if I'm trolling in 25 feet of water, how far off bottom is it ideal for my lures to be in a fast water river? (When I say fast water I mean if I shut my boat off, I will drift 1.5-3 miles per hour depending where I am on the river and time of year/water flow)
Also, if I am In 25 feet of water, sometimes the weeds I mark on my fish finder are 10-15 feet off bottom. So, should I be 1 foot above the weeds or can I be as much as 5 feet above the weeds? Ultimately that would mean if I'm trolling 25 feet of water, and weeds come up 10 feet, and I was 5 feet above the weeds my lures would only be 10 feet from the surface.
Also, is there any other general pointers for trolling river systems? It can be hard to follow the proper depth, as you can troll along shore and in a half mile stretch water depth can be anywhere from 40-10 feet and can change that dramatically 5-10 times in that half mile strip.
Also, is it best to troll with the current or against the current? (I realize cross curret and zigzags are recomended either way)
Any tips or things more experienced trolling guys can offer would be greatly appreciated.
Edited by C07pernice 8/17/2014 3:14 PM
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Posts: 39
| Also, does any trolling tactic change when trolling at night? Such as trolling speed, lure depth, etc. |
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Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | The shortest possible answer with such an in-depth question is to study the written work of the greatest troller that has ever been. If you still have questions, send an email or pm and I'll try and clarify.
https://www.buckperry.com/shop/educational-materials
Happy trolling! |
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Posts: 682
Location: Sycamore, IL | Your not gonna have much success dragging lures covered in weeds. Shorten your lines or use shallower running baits if your river is really that weedy. Try using just one rod that you keep in your hands instead of the holder. You will then begin to "map" a section of the river and be able to feel if your lure is running true. This will also help you to dial in running depth and speed. As you are finding out successful trolling is far from easy. The Spoonplugging book is a great suggestion and can help turn your trolling into an interesting and productive technique. Good luck! |
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Posts: 39
| Are you guys suggesting spoon plugging ? |
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Posts: 39
| Also, why the longer leaders for trolling?
There's got to be some guys who troll in here that have some info.... Seems like people just want to talk about whether it's cool or not cool to wear sunglasses in their pictures haha |
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Posts: 2753
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | C07pernice - 8/17/2014 8:52 PM
Also, why the longer leaders for trolling?
There's got to be some guys who troll in here that have some info.... Seems like people just want to talk about whether it's cool or not cool to wear sunglasses in their pictures haha
Hi, Since you're apparently new to the MF forum's, a small piece of advice. Comments like your last sentence will likely get you very little support/response's from older members. Most of us don't care....
I troll quite a bit, yes weeds are a pain even in 25FOW. So remeber this, if the fish really wants to eat, it will come up out of the weeds to get it very quickly, thats only ~6 body lengths from the bottom to the top for a 48-50" class fish. Its also why a lot of folks use short line trolling w/ rod tips in the water.
Watch your sonar very carefully and know what depth your lures are running and exactly how far back. If its starting getting shallow (humps & points) try speeding up, that will bring your lures up higher above the weed tips, rocks etc. The speed change can also be a trigger......8-10mph is not to fast of a quick burst, or troll with floating lures, then you just slow down and let them float up over the structure.
Even fishing weedless muskie lures, you will catch weeds on swivel's, snaps or even the lure itself. Its the nature of the beast. I don't like trolling shallow weed beds, then you are likely just chopping up more weeds to float on the surface, e.g. and it desructive to the weed bed. Fish the deep water edges, thats where my HB 997C-SI side imaging sonar really shines.
I troll shoreline's a lot, especially when on a new lake, I also do that here on the Petenwell & WI River. I run my lures between 4- 12' down, and 12' is usually reserved for clear trout water lakes. I also have dipsey divers, big Bay of Quinte style planer boards with a mast, also Off Shore and smaller yellow birds, and also a downrigger setup for Esox Maniac (my boat). The problem with the smaller boards and dipsey's is the stupid fish go after them. So for muskies I'm usually flat line trolling, its just simpler. If I'm using boards, I'm usually after big walleye's. But the big Bay of Quinte style boards do have a place for muskies.
Usually the inside rod is a big weedless spoon with a teaser tail and stinger (14" - 16" long). The prop wash rod gets a different lure, and the outside rod gets another, I don't usually run more than 3-rods, because its a 3-stooges fire drill when you get a big fish on, simpler is better and everyone in the boat knows their job, e.g., who's fish it is, who's getting the net and who's cranking in the closest non-fish rods. The inside rod and the prop wash rod usually get the most action.
As for longer leaders, I only have one (3' 80lb fluoro)on my prop wash rod - 10' Ugly Stick saltwater surf casting rod with a big Shimano spinning reel spooled w/65lb braid. (PP). I also use a salwater roller outrigger release to get the line down to deck level in the pop wash, versus having just a 10' rod sticking up in the air, and I can run a lure 10' behind the boat.. When that rod gets hit everyone in the boat knows it the instant that outrigger release opens.
Try doing a search on "trolling" - there are lots of good advice. My techniques I've developed over the last 10-12 years.
Have fun!
Al
Edited by ESOX Maniac 8/18/2014 8:28 AM
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Posts: 1036
| Sounds to me like you don't like trolling. Stick with casting or jigging.
But if you want to troll, pick a day or a timeframe and stick to it. Don't let weeds or lack of action get you down. Change your baits when you feel like it, do everything kind of like you would if you were casting. Consider a trolling run one long cast.
Weed wise, shorter lines with rods in the water will take care of a lot of weeds. Or you can tie a longer leader and put a weed guard at the front to catch weeds that slip down the line.
Good luck to you. |
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Posts: 192
Location: Quebec, Canada | As mentionned by ESOX Maniac, big muskies will jump out of the weeds very quickly to reach lures that are 20 feet from them. You have much more chances to get a hit with a lure that is higher than the fish in the water column, than the opposite.
As a general rule, you want to fish the first 1/3 of the water column. That way, you will get the fish attention and risk to get less weeds on your line. Also, you will probably run into bait fish balls that will be that high in the water column. As for hitting bottom, I would only do that in late fall when the river water column turns over.
There are different trolling techniques such as short line, open water and bottom bouncing. As they are all very good techniques, a good start would be in doing researches as on when to do what.
Longer leaders will offer a chance at stopping the weeds further on the line and might not change the action of the bait or hit it at all at some point. Also, using longer fluorocarbon leader will hide the lure from your line main line. That might only be a small detail, but I'd say that trolling is definitely the sum of various small details that in total, will make a huge difference.
Also, adding trolling to your overall fishing day strategy is a very good idea. Per example, you can plan on casting for a period of time and then plan to troll while you'll have lunch, snack, or will want to take a break from burning big blades, throwing pounders, etc. (always bring extra food as I've thrown sandwiches in the water or in the bottom of the boat out of a reaction from a screaming reel alarm)
Good luck.
Edited by Drakl 8/18/2014 9:20 AM
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Posts: 114
| jerryb - 8/17/2014 5:48 PM
The shortest possible answer with such an in-depth question is to study the written work of the greatest troller that has ever been. If you still have questions, send an email or pm and I'll try and clarify.
https://www.buckperry.com/shop/educational-materials
Happy trolling!
"The greatest troller that has ever been?" That's subjective for SURE! I know many MANY great trollers and a spoonplug is a far cry from any lure in their box.
Another tip that I can provide is to troll with your back rods buried with their tips in the water. On my side rods, the tips are still in the water slightly and I also use weed hooks. Take a 4/0 size hook and cut off the hook points/barbs. Then use a staylock and swivel to attach to the top of your leader, using the swivel eye closest to your mainline. This will help to catch any weeds that slide down your line and prevent them from fouling your bait. I have caught dozens of muskies with a clean lure in their mouth, while the week hook may be covered. I've also caught fish on the weed hook too lol. |
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Posts: 39
| Just making sure none of these tactics change while trolling at night, you would all troll this time of year at night as you would during the day? |
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Posts: 114
| Tactics do change at night. We slow down and ensure we have at least one lure up high in the water column. Also, when slowing down it helps to use baits that have a lot of action at a slower speed. Jointed baits, including believers and swim wiz, work great for this application. |
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Posts: 51
| where can i get a 17 inch spoonplug? |
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Posts: 39
| I only saw 5" spoon plugs when I was looking at them. I did order one to give it a whirl. |
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Location: North America | What's a spoon plug? |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Shoe horn with hooks....now a bunch of younger guys are going to want to know what a shoe horn is. |
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Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | Mj,
From the knowledgable trollers perspective "A" lure, any lure is a tool designed to accomplish a job, (depth, speed, size, color & action), depth being the most important. There are hundreds if not thousands of lures on the market today that will do what a 100 spoonplug will do but in 1946, not so much... The fact that the trollers you may know don't use one lure says nothing about there ability to map and interpret a body of water quickly or correctly. If they are good trollers, they are good mappers first.
Buck use to say it took him about 4 days to put a new body of water in his back pocket, it takes the rest of us,,,, longer.
http://buckperry.com/buck-perry/29-about-buck-perry
For those looking for a muskie size spoonplug:
http://johnnyb-lures.com/?page_id=2 |
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Posts: 114
| jerryb - 8/19/2014 9:32 AM
Mj,
From the knowledgable trollers perspective "A" lure, any lure is a tool designed to accomplish a job, (depth, speed, size, color & action ), depth being the most important. There are hundreds if not thousands of lures on the market today that will do what a 100 spoonplug will do but in 1946, not so much... The fact that the trollers you may know don't use one lure says nothing about there ability to map and interpret a body of water quickly or correctly. If they are good trollers, they are good mappers first.
Buck use to say it took him about 4 days to put a new body of water in his back pocket, it takes the rest of us,,,, longer.
http://buckperry.com/buck-perry/29-about-buck-perry
For those looking for a muskie size spoonplug:
http://johnnyb-lures.com/?page_id=2
I completely agree that knowing how deep your lure is running is without question the most important part of trolling. I was assuming everyone was thinking under this mindset. I have read some of the Buck Perry stuff, but just because Buck Perry "SAYS" that he has a water in his back pocket in 4 days doesn't really make it true, does it? You can't honestly believe he knows any body of water after fishing it for 4 days?
Some other advice I can provide would be on the lure type. I fish mainly Ohio and Mid-West Waters in Michigan and NY. We have a lot of shad in our lakes, so shad baits are a staple. I would highly recommend investing in some Tuff Shads and Boss Shads, maybe a few of each to start in a natural and hot color pattern. These baits are very productive in our waters....give them a shot.
This guy asked for help with trolling. If you're trying to catch more muskies stay after it and keep modifying your approach until you're successful. Figuring it out is part of the fun. But pointing the guy to a spoonplugging is NOT what I call help...seems like someone may own the Buck Perry website or something? This is rich from the site you linked. "Spoonplugging is the search for knowledge about fish, their habits, and how to successfully catch them." I believe this is the definition of "fishing" which people have been doing for tens of thousands of years prior to Buck Perry's existence.
Edited by MuskieJim 8/19/2014 9:25 AM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | new lake = 10 hours to fish it, map for 8 and fish for 2 and you might be surprised. don't look past the forest for the trees. his response was probably the best advice anyone could ever give you, unless you just want to go drag or chuck baits and benefit from luck or call it work without results depending on the day.
learn the water and use the tool that presents the bait to the fish = novel concept. |
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Location: oswego, il | Alot of people on this site troll but not many troll deep rivers so your situation may not match up with what most people do. You could do yourself a little bit of favor by mentioning the river. Its not like the Ottawa, st Lawrence, Detroit and st Claire rivers are a secret. I would be willing to bet its one of those. Could get more help that way as people can put you on more specific direction.
Edited by ToddM 8/19/2014 9:31 AM
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| jonnysled - 8/19/2014 10:22 AM
new lake = 10 hours to fish it, map for 8 and fish for 2 and you might be surprised. don't look past the forest for the trees. his response was probably the best advice anyone could ever give you, unless you just want to go drag or chuck baits and benefit from luck or call it work without results depending on the day.
learn the water and use the tool that presents the bait to the fish = novel concept.
Absolutely it's a novel concept. That concept is called fishing, not spoonplugging. That's the point I was trying to make.
If I have 10 hours to fish a new lake, I'm spending 10 hours fishing. I would NEVER go to a new body of water completely blind. That's called being prepared and doing your homework. While you're out driving around for 8 hours, we are putting fish in the boat. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i believe if you read his comments you will find that message … or you can jump to the way he learned it. regardless, he provided some sound advice, in-fact the best advice so far on this thread if you choose to take it.
you might be surprised at the mapping % to fishing % and results … there are a few guys that might argue with results that prove it. |
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Location: Northern IL | Seriously Sled, wow!
One of the first things Buck sez is a fish can be caught by anyone doing just about anything, at anytime, however "if he wants to catch more and bigger fish constantly (no matter the species) he must control the depth and speed of his lure or bait on or around productive bottom features". Fishermen may have been in search of "the answer" for a long time but I don't recall anyone saying this before 1928. Buck Perry changed the way you and I fish today.
Another common mistake is what Buck teaches does not apply to any other species besides the lm bass. This is where they failed to read when he sez that he chose the lm bass as the study fish because the lm bass is the MOST effected in a negative way by a change in the weather or water conditions. Buck goes on to say if the fisherman can learn to catch the "adult size" lm bass (not tournament bass) in a consistent method he will in fact catch all the other species.
I'd love to go point for point with everyone on here but I just don't have the time, this is fishing season btw. As I said above the quickest way for you or C07 to become a more knowledgable troller is to study the work of a great troller. Buck Perry does not need to be defended, his life and his contributions are far reaching and stand on there own. I own no web site or lure company, I receive nothing financially from promoting Bucks book. I do it because believe it or not I'm grateful for what Buck so unselfishly gave away, and besides its fun to see others catch more and bigger fish than they ever dreamed of catching.
I had never caught a muskie or adult size pike, walleye, bass or lake trout consistently before 1995 but today we can go to pretty much any body of water and do ok. Just one recent example is in early August a gentleman saw Jim Shells Structure Fishing show and called to see what it was all about. He said he had been fishing a particular lake for about 5 years but was unhappy with the results and wanted to see how a "structure fishermen" (Spoonplugger) went about fishing a new lake. To make a long story short we went trough the basics of lure presentation (trolling) we talked about the weather condition, the water color and what we could expect that day. We caught 21 lm bass over 18", all off one spot. We found them by trolling and caught many of them casting that ole shoe horn thing.
I say this because this is what is possible with the information in that little 300 page book, it works with muskies too! It still takes a lot of work, YEARS of study and persistence. I don't mean to say anyone else's way is wrong or does not work, some don't like to troll and I get that. What I believes is if someone is doing something that works, its probably not a stretch where it can be traced directly back to Buck Perry.
Edited by jerryb 8/19/2014 11:58 AM
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Posts: 470
| Any pointers for open water trolling? Planning on doing some this weekend. Have the 36" fluoro leaders with weed hooks ready to go...
OP if I'm stealing your thread LMK and I'll bug out...
RandalB
Edited by RandalB 8/19/2014 5:15 PM
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Posts: 39
| Randal, this is the exact conversation I hoped to start when I created this thread. I have been watching this forum for months and seeing very little discussion of tactics (prob because a lot of his haw it figured out or "are old" as one person stated)
By bringing up different questions and topics I will onl learn more, so anyone reading this, ask any question you want in regards to musky fishing/trolling
I'm still researching and looking at everyone had to say and will respond again soon. Thanks and let's keep this discussion going ! |
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Location: Quebec, Canada | RandalB - 8/19/2014 6:14 PM
Any pointers for open water trolling? Planning on doing some this weekend. Have the 36" fluoro leaders with weed hooks ready to go...
OP if I'm stealing your thread LMK and I'll bug out...
RandalB
Some interesting results from open water trolling in this topic:
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=97...
Once again, I fish big, deep river systems and at this time of the year, I would keep my baits in the 1/3 top water column. You will run through bait fish balls so make sure you have a short line running in the prop wash. Muskies will be anticipating the bait fishes to get disoriented because of the force of your prop wash and they will strike your baits instead, mistaken them for the bait fishes.
You can either use lure very similar in color pattern and size to the forage in your river system, or something that will be on the opposite, in contrast and very different.... which will stand out. At this point, you'll have to figure the pattern.
Don't be scared to troll very fast to cover a lot of water considering that you won't be targeting a specific structure. 5mph to 10mph can be considered... just make sure your lures run true at these speeds.
If you see very distinct muskies on your sonar close to the forage balls, don't hesitate to do 8s around it/ stop to cast/ jig the area.
Good luck and give us news of your results.
Edited by Drakl 8/19/2014 8:24 PM
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Posts: 114
Location: Kingston, Ontario | Listen to jerryb....I did and have caught more fish in the last 2 years than ever. When it comes to trolling I would bet he is the best on here. How many muskies did you and your sons pull out of the Detroit river a few weeks ago in a week? 48? |
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Posts: 114
| There are several captains that fish the lake and river systems that average 30 fish per day. Not knocking Jerry in any way, but numbers are serious in those systems. My best weekend this year, we caught 37 fish in two days from my boat and I'm far from a pro....
I think a real factor that comes into play when trolling is being observant. Pay attention to all the details the fish are providing. If I begin to catch fish on one of my outside rod on a turn, I know I need to speed up. Often times when reeling in a fish we will slow down and another fish will get hooked up, telling us we need to slow down. When you are fishing a prime area and do not see fish on the finder, they didn't just up and decide to move to another lake. They are there, try dropping a bait near the bottom and a few up very high. There's been times where we are catching fish in the top 3' of the water column in 18'-30' of water. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | jerryb - 8/19/2014 12:54 PM What I believes is if someone is doing something that works, its probably not a stretch where it can be traced directly back to Buck Perry. Exactly. Many of the best anglers I know, casters and trollers, are really spoonpluggers, funny thing is most of them don't know it. When you see/hear how they're consistently on BIG fish it all comes back to spoonplugging. If the name of that book was titled "Structure Fishing A-Z" more people would buy it and shorten their learning curve dramatically, their loss. |
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| Will Schultz - 8/20/2014 12:51 PM
jerryb - 8/19/2014 12:54 PM What I believes is if someone is doing something that works, its probably not a stretch where it can be traced directly back to Buck Perry. Exactly. Many of the best anglers I know, casters and trollers, are really spoonpluggers, funny thing is most of them don't know it. When you see/hear how they're consistently on BIG fish it all comes back to spoonplugging. If the name of that book was titled "Structure Fishing A-Z" more people would buy it and shorten their learning curve dramatically, their loss.
This is all just very confusing to me. So.....In both of your opinions.....guys who are structure trolling, who have never read a word out of Buck Perry's book, should contribute all of their success to Buck Perry? Anyone who is doing something that catches fish can be traced back to Buck Perry? Anyone who trolls and tries to control their depth is a spoonplugger?  |
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