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Posts: 667
Location: Wisconsin | So, been running regular unleaded, never had an issue, am I just fortunate? I ask because I just put on a new to me motor and I am wondering if it is worth it to run the premium.
Thanks! |
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Posts: 1753
Location: Mt. Zion, IL | as long as the fuel is ethanol free, there is no significant benefit to run high octane fuel in an outboard motor. |
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Posts: 246
Location: Grand Marais, MN | regular with ethanol compared to premium with ethanol no difference. I prefer no ethanol gas whenever possible for a variety of reasons, mostly related to how goofy the idea of ethanol as a fuel source is.... also will get better fuel economy and performance out of pure gasoline, and potentially could help avoid engine problems related to ethanol, although new engines deal with the ethanol better than older ones. So you probably weren't lucky most people dont have a problem with ethanol but there are still a lot of good reasons to avoid it when you can. |
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Posts: 243
Location: South Central Wisconsin | Yep. Stay away from ethanol if you can. I run sea foam in mine as well. I never believed in miracles in a can but, sea foam is awesome stuff. |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
So long as you are using the fuel and not letting it sit for long long periods of time, the 10% ethanol blends will be just fine. I have run both ethanol blends and premium non-ethanol fuel as well. The only difference is a little smoother running engine with the premium due to the higher octane having a more stable burn, and maybe a little boost in economy and power due to the lack of ethanol. Ethanol does not have the same capabilities to generate horsepower as unblended fuel, but it will not hurt your engine as so many have come to believe...if it was that bad, we would not be running it in our vehicles on the road.
The argument many make is that ethanol blended fuel attracts water, which is true (as does regular fuel), but it will not attract water so fast as to cause issue if you are using the fuel on a regular basis. The other argument many make is that it will eat the fuel lines, gaskets, etc. which is true WHEN the fuel is left untreated and sits for long periods of time. But...(and this is where many will disagree with me...and I'll get chastised here probably as well) if the operator is doing their part with preventative maintenance by treating the fuel (and that would be any fuel...not just ethanol blends) with a stabilizer when the boat is going to sit for a while (such as 4 weeks or more), the problems would not occur. I've had a full tank of ethanol blended fuel in my tank many times over winter, and so long as the fuel has been properly stabilized and run through the engine, the motor will be just fine. Some people go a little further and install a fuel/water separator before the fuel reaches the engine to remove any water in the fuel. I have one on my rig as well, and after using ethanol blends through the filter for quite some time, I have found no water in the fuel when I dump the filter...none...absolutely nothing... and that was letting the fuel sit for a few hours after dumping. Another argument some will make is that ethanol blends will phase separate over time, which is true, but it take another liquid agent...it takes water to be present to create phase separation. If you are using your fuel regularly and are purchasing it from a reputable station who regularly has to have fuel delivered, you will be quite safe..
So long as you do your part to stabilize the fuel and run it through the engine when the engine will be sitting for some time, your engine will be just fine...
Steve
Edited by VMS 4/24/2014 9:40 PM
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Posts: 667
Location: Wisconsin | Bigfoot and Ryan, seems in my area the only way to get ethanol free is to buy premium, so it is not so much that I want the premium, just seeking pure gasoline.
Steve, I always treat my fuel as I don't know how long it will be until I get out again. I have had the same results as you, keeping a full tank of blended fuel that was treated all winter, with no issues. Spring, the motor starts right up! I appreciate your complete answers( as usual!!)
Randy, been thinking of running seafoam. My manual actually suggests to add it to each tank to stop carbon buildup.
Thanks all!
Edited by Clammer 4/24/2014 9:52 PM
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Great reply, VMS. |
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| Clammer,
The gas station at the Sentry in Walworth has 100% 87 octane, if you're interested. It's only at the first pump closest to the building, but it's there.
Clammer - 4/24/2014 9:51 PM
Bigfoot and Ryan, seems in my area the only way to get ethanol free is to buy premium, so it is not so much that I want the premium, just seeking pure gasoline.
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Posts: 410
Location: With my son on the water | All good comments guys. I would agree with most of you. When I know I am going to burn up a few tanks in a short period I don't worry about ethonal. But as I get near the fall when the boat will sit I stay away from it. Treating fuel with stable like others have said is also important no matter what the fuel.
Below is a link where you can find non ethonal gas in the entire US & Canada.
Have a good day.
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MN  |
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Posts: 667
Location: Wisconsin | PJV - 4/25/2014 5:58 AM
Clammer,
The gas station at the Sentry in Walworth has 100% 87 octane, if you're interested. It's only at the first pump closest to the building, but it's there.
Clammer - 4/24/2014 9:51 PM
Bigfoot and Ryan, seems in my area the only way to get ethanol free is to buy premium, so it is not so much that I want the premium, just seeking pure gasoline.
Sweet! I had no idea about that Sentry having pure gas, Thanks PJV!!
Any luck with the Winch gears?
Thanks for the link btfish, I will look for some options. |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | I used to run the regular gas with ethanol in it. Ran fine all season, but the two times I stored over winter with (treated) ethanol gas I had my carbs get plugged and the motor not run well the next spring. I switched to etanol free gas (regular without it, or premium without it, depending on the gas station) and have had no issues since.
I run a 50 40 stroke, and the difference in price of buying ethanol free gas is very little, so I just run it all year.
I do think if you fish a lot you'd be okay buying ethanol gas if burning it up fast, and then switching to ethanol free for the last couple tanks of the year before storage. |
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Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | I will buy NON OXYGENATED fuel every time. I will drive out of my way to get it. This is in all our boats, small motors, lawn mowers, chainsaws etc...we do not have problems anymore. Cars & trucks get whatever and run through it. A boat could run for a day and then have to sit until next weekend. We simply had too many problems. |
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Posts: 1096
Location: Hayward, WI | Why chance running ehtanol if you can avoid it? It can cause more problems than straight gas. Paying $.40 more a gallon is worth it to me to lessen the chance of issues. Electric fuel pumps, injectors, high pressure fuel filter, fuel rails, are all very expensive.
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | kjgmh - 4/25/2014 10:16 AM
Why chance running ehtanol if you can avoid it?
Job security for friends in the outboard repair business!
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Posts: 229
| I just need to add that I run gas with ethanol in everything- boat, truck, mower, snowblower, all other gas powered tools. I use Stabil to treat any amount of gas that will sit for any period of time. Small items like mower, snowblower, I will run Stabil through the system and drain tank. I try to keep the amount of boat gas to a minimum for the winter. I have never had a problem like the proponents of ethanol free gas here on speak of. I will continue to run gas with ethanol without any problems as well... |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | Randy - 4/24/2014 8:34 PM
Yep. Stay away from ethanol if you can. I run sea foam in mine as well. I never believed in miracles in a can but, sea foam is awesome stuff.
Same here. I tend to run ethanol free mid grade an put sea foam in every time. |
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Posts: 410
Location: With my son on the water | Hey Guys
I am not meaning to be a jurk but some of you guys may not be doing the correct thing. If you read the many post regarding gas you will see a few things.
1. All gas (Ethonal or non Ethonal) will break down (seperate) in roughly 30 days. So that is your window. If you are going to consume it in 30 days, you probably don't have to treat it. But it will not hurt if you do.
2. Gas treatment. If your gas is going to be in your tank longer than 30 days you need to treat it to prevent seperations. Stabil is the cheapest and works. I may be wrong but I was informed and have read (SeaFoam) is more of a cleaner versus a stabilization agent. Seafoam is good stuff (it is basically carburator cleaner). However I make sure it is run out of my system come fall.
3. As winter (or long term storage) gets closer I have been told to run non ethonal with stabil. As far as how full to have the tank? The condensation issue only happens with metal tanks so if you have a plastic tanks you don't have to worry. The best practice is to run you tank as low as you can (never run it dry) and then top it off in the spring with fresh gas to dilute the old stuff as much as you can.
4. The main concern with Ethonal is that it collects moisture (The Gas additive called Heat) is 100% ethonal and it collects the moisture in a gas tank and then runs it though the system and it burns out because the concentartion of H2O is low. If you leave Ethonal gas in a gas tank undisturbed for an extended period of time the Ethonal continues to act like the Heat and collects moisture. Eventually you have so much H2O in your tank that you estentially run water into your engine. (Worst case) Also problems related to Ethonal (Water accumalation) doesn't happen over night. It may take years, but it is highly probably it will happen. So for those of you who have never had a problem, I am happy for you but it is almost like living in LA, it will happen.
5. Premium versus non Premium. Many outboard manufactures do not recommend Premium and actually say it can damage your engine. So the best practice is run what the manufacture recommends.
Attached is a link of where you can find Ethonal free gas in the entire US & Canada
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MN
I hope this helps.
And Always have a great day.
Edited by btfish 4/26/2014 8:35 AM
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Posts: 209
| Thanks for the link!!!!
btfish - 4/25/2014 6:00 AM
All good comments guys. I would agree with most of you. When I know I am going to burn up a few tanks in a short period I don't worry about ethonal. But as I get near the fall when the boat will sit I stay away from it. Treating fuel with stable like others have said is also important no matter what the fuel.
Below is a link where you can find non ethonal gas in the entire US & Canada.
Have a good day.
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=MN ; ) |
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Posts: 677
Location: Twin Cities, MN | Just back from the Hudson Fleet Farm to get some gas for opener next weekend ( closest station with corn free gas at the mid level )
Put in 15 fresh gallons with Quickleen and Quickcare ( should keep it good for 90 days ) although I never leave gas in my boat longer than a month, I normally drain it out and throw it in my truck.
Pal |
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Posts: 1150
Location: Minnesota. | Buddy of mine's son when through Anoka Voc-Tech small engine course a few yrs back and he said he was told not to use Sta-bil as a fuel saver long-term as it would in effect begin to "gel" in a container. Lots of "Huhs???" so the instructor put a pint in ajar at he beginning of the course and let her sit. A few months later you could see the cloudiness as it settled in.
They were suggested to use Sea-Foam.
I'm not a mech. guy by any stretch, just passing along what his son told me. He builds/races snow mobiles and big bikes so I trust him. I've never had any issues running and using Sea Foam myself for an occasional tankful and always store using it...same as my small engines. No troubles yet.
Just passing along some info.
Edited by Jeremy 4/26/2014 8:41 PM
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Posts: 5874
| Best answer here is Steve's(VMS). You should not be so concerned about ethanol fuel, IF you maintain a program of treating each tankful with stabilizer and cleaning agents.
I used minimal amount of Stabil, and the recommended Merc QuikClean in every tank fillup. In fall, I would increase the Stabil to the recommended amount. I never worried about how much fuel was in my tank when I put it up for the couple of months of winter non-use. Fill it up prior to the first outing, and keep the program going through out the year.
I would check my water separator twice a year, and I never got more than one drop of water.
In my small engines, I use the non-ethanol, as I don't use up all the gas in them every time they are used. I also use Stabil there, too. |
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Posts: 1168
| Jeremy - 4/26/2014 9:39 PM
Buddy of mine's son when through Anoka Voc-Tech small engine course a few yrs back and he said he was told not to use Sta-bil as a fuel saver long-term as it would in effect begin to "gel" in a container. Lots of "Huhs???" so the instructor put a pint in ajar at he beginning of the course and let her sit. A few months later you could see the cloudiness as it settled in.
I used Stabil the first year I had my boat. Never again. The following spring I had all sorts of problems that were not cheap to rectify. The mechanic I took the boat to that spring asked if I sued Stabil and I said yes. "Well, that's the cause of 99% of your problems." 10 years since using Sea Foam exclusively and I've never had any issues outside of general things that simply wear out.
A few years ago I upgraded my fuel lines and got away from the basic black rubber hose crap. Ever since then when I change my fuel filter and cut it apart to inspect the thing it's been clean and free of black residue. I have no problems running a blended fuel and have been doing that ever since the failed Stabil experiment of 2003. |
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Posts: 5874
| How old was that boat/motor? I can see issues with ethanol in boats and motors that were older and didn't have ethanol friendly hoses and gaskets. In that case, it wasn't the stabil that was the issue, it was old equipment not suited to running ethanol.
I've used Stabil in all my toys for years, and I've never had any issues related to its use. I've got a half full(half empty?) bottle of Marine Stabil(The blue stuff) in my garage for the past 2 years, and it looks the same as the day I bought it. Not cloudy at all. |
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Posts: 1169
Location: New Hope MN | I would avoid using ethanol fuels in any of the older engines. In those cases, it's more than just water accumulation, it's about chemical compatibility.
Ethanol attacks aluminum, some seal materials, tubing/fuel lines and some plastics. Older engines/fuel systems were not built for ethanol. Adding stabil or seafoam will not prevent chemical attack.
Running your engine every single day will not prevent chemical attack if you keep putting ethanol fuels into your engine.
Each material is attacked differently. Seals usually swell and this condition usually goes away once you switch fuels. This can cause leaks anywhere a seal is found or failing fuel pumps.
Plastics usually lose plasticizers which cause them to become brittle. Others will actually dissolve.
Aluminum is much less of a concern, but ethanol does cause minor corrosion. Probably not enough to cause any real short term damage.
I encourage you to check the compass corrosion guide if you have your doubts about my answer.
Chemical attack shouldn’t be an issue on the newer motors. Material substitutions have been made. But then again, you still have water accumulation to worry about… Since you are buying a new motor, do what you feel best. I do whatever I can to stay away from Ethanol. $0.40/gallon extra is worth it to me.
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Posts: 243
Location: South Central Wisconsin | Just a little bit more food for thought...
If you aren't running the highest grade fuel, you aren't getting the maximum performance out of your outboard. The hp ratings are done with high octane gasoline. So if your rig seems underpowered, (don't know what you have) higher octane will help there as well. |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
I would disagree with that statement Randy.
The higher the octane only creates a smoother, more consistent burn...it does not give you any more performance out of your engine. What it does do is reduce the potential of detonation in higher compression engines. That is why in engines that have been modifed at the block (shaved heads, building a modified engine for displacement, etc.), the higher octane is used to prevent pre-ignition (i.e. detonation) which will vastly reduce the life of the engine.
Many of the outboards today are designed to run on 87 octane fuel. Putting higher octane in might help it run smoother, but there is no performance gain for running it.
Steve |
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Posts: 134
| LOL ever try running and VP |
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Posts: 243
Location: South Central Wisconsin | VMS - 4/30/2014 7:59 AM
Hiya,
I would disagree with that statement Randy.
The higher the octane only creates a smoother, more consistent burn...it does not give you any more performance out of your engine. What it does do is reduce the potential of detonation in higher compression engines. That is why in engines that have been modifed at the block (shaved heads, building a modified engine for displacement, etc.), the higher octane is used to prevent pre-ignition (i.e. detonation) which will vastly reduce the life of the engine.
Many of the outboards today are designed to run on 87 octane fuel. Putting higher octane in might help it run smoother, but there is no performance gain for running it.
Steve That could be Steve. I was told that the "minimum" required gasoline for my rig was the 87. No more than 10% ethanol. I was then told to run the high octane for best performance. Then, I go to Merc's website and they recommend 87. Wth? Lol |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | There is a ton of misinformation out there...
Minimum octane ratings are given to prevent an engine from detonating with lower octane fuel, such as 86 or 85 octane. I have seen lower octanes in other states (out west comes to mind) which is what you would want to avoid.
The higher octanes will not boost performance unless they are non oxygenated (non ethanol) but the increase in performance would most likely go unnoticed. Even then, if you found 87 octane that was non oxygenated, you would not notice any difference either.
Notable performance increase would take much more than just changing fuel. Engine parts would need to be changed or modified...much like Hydrotech marine does for Yamaha engines by offering shaved heads, exhaust tuners, carbon reeds, etc., and then at that, those parts due to the EPA are only allowed for testing or racing purposes only... I did that with a 90hp yamaha 2 stroke as I was looking to get every bit of performance out of that motor being the smallest displacement 2 stroke 90hp on the market.
Steve |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | VMS - 5/1/2014 11:53 AM
There is a ton of misinformation out there...
Minimum octane ratings are given to prevent an engine from detonating with lower octane fuel, such as 86 or 85 octane. I have seen lower octanes in other states (out west comes to mind) which is what you would want to avoid.
The higher octanes will not boost performance unless they are non oxygenated (non ethanol) but the increase in performance would most likely go unnoticed. Even then, if you found 87 octane that was non oxygenated, you would not notice any difference either.
Notable performance increase would take much more than just changing fuel. Engine parts would need to be changed or modified...much like Hydrotech marine does for Yamaha engines by offering shaved heads, exhaust tuners, carbon reeds, etc., and then at that, those parts due to the EPA are only allowed for testing or racing purposes only... I did that with a 90hp yamaha 2 stroke as I was looking to get every bit of performance out of that motor being the smallest displacement 2 stroke 90hp on the market.
Steve
Is there any way to safely modify a Yamaha 90HP 4 stroke to get more performance? I have one on a 690T Ranger and while it is fine, a tad bit performance would be invited. I regret not putting a 115 on it, but went with the legal rating. Doubt I'd do anything, as I love the way it runs and don't want to lose any life expectancy, but just curious.
I run 89 Octane non oxygenated fuel and seem to see my best performance for price with it. The highest octane non oxy's haven't shown me any better performance and in fact the 89 has bench tested better starting/running in my ice augers and lawn eqpmt.
Edited by Reef Hawg 5/1/2014 12:16 PM
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