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kyle smoker tackle |
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| It has been brought up before about a manufacturer only musly show.Just wondering what people thinks about one.No retailers allowed !Todd from Leo lures brought this idea to me appx 10 years ago and it sounds like a good idea. Chime in and let us know.thank you Edited by kyle smoker tackle 3/2/2014 12:58 AM | |||
| Peter Stoltman |
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Posts: 218 | This is just my opinion so don't take it as me representing anyone but myself but here goes. The musky "industry" is so ass backwards compared to just about any other business model. Manufacturers want to sell at shows so they can put some fast cash in their pocket for a few days a year. I get that. Good old American greed. The retailer is purchasing product and stocking it, warehousing, advertising, paying sales staff, in some cases traveling to shows, etc, all year long to sell the manufacturers product. Now when the retailer places an order so he can sell your product the "manufacturer" doesn't have product to ship because he is either sold out and it will take him weeks to build more product or he doesn't want to supply the product until he gets first whack at selling to the public. It really is a bunch of BS. The retailers share some blame in this because they let it happen in the first place. I've talked to execs in other industries and they have universally told me that if any of their suppliers were found selling to the end user at a trade show, that would be the end of the relationship. The whole concept of "shows" in the musky industry is not really a trade show anymore. It's really more like a craft fair. Those who want the retailers out of the shows are getting their way as retailers realize it's futile to expend the time, energy, and money to put together an effective display at the show and make any money at it with your suppliers selling against them up and down the aisles. | ||
| BornToFish1 |
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Posts: 51 | What Pete said x two. I'm not a member of the musky industry. | ||
| horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | In my opinion if a manufacturer wants to sell direct to the public he should not expect any support from retailers. If retailers buy warehouse and display the product of manufactures that compete directly with them they deserve what they get. I have been attending sportsman shows for over 50 years off and on ( more off lately) at one time all the larger manufactures had booths for information and display only. If you wanted to buy something they directed you to a retailer in the show who was likely carrying stock. Shows for the most part have degenerated to the point where it's people hawking T shirts, sneakers, and vegetable choppers. I guess if the small manufacturer can't get his product into the retailers he is left with no choice but to sell direct but neither party should expect it to work both ways. Edited by horsehunter 3/2/2014 6:43 AM | ||
| horsehunter |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I guess one of the problems in the muskie tackle industry is there are 2 types of manufactures the large or semi large corporation and the guy who has a 9 to 5 and turns out a few baits in his basement. If I'm building a few hundred baits a year and people have been willing to pay $100 a piece and I am selling all I can produce life's good. Then I am contacted by a retailer that wants to carry my bait and sell it for $100 . To do this I have to sell it ( I'm guessing) for $60 and now I'm not making any money out of what was a lucrative hobby. | ||
| mm3 |
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Posts: 396 Location: Northern Illinois | Some of the other trade shows might be different where the general public doesn't really have access to the manufacturers. I think the way the musky shows are set up now, with both retailers and manufacturers, works for this small industry (at least from my “general public” point of view). I bought 6 lures at the Milwaukee show this year - 4 were from manufacturers and 2 were from retailers. If the retailers are selling your product at the show you are getting money indirectly. I think some of the larger manufacturers, Like ERC, weren't really selling directly at the shows, they were just there to advertise and explain their products and let the retailers sell them. I think one of the keys is "show only" lures or colors from the manufacturers. A couple of years ago, I was buying some lures from Big Game Tackle and asked Todd about a standard color. His response was Thorne Bros or R&H have them and he just sells the show colors so there is no overlap. Some of the custom colors, like ones made with foil, may be more time consuming for the manufacturer to make. However, this is one of the reasons people go to the shows - to get something they can't get through their normal channels or something that is special. In this modern day of internet and fast shipping, if there really isn't anything different from the manufacturer, then the buyer can just get it from the retailer online or the next time he goes to their store. I think some of the manufacturers at the show understand this and work to complement the retailers, get their own name and craftsmanship out there, make some additional money, and show the public what they've got. | ||
| Sunshine |
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Location: Waukesha, WI, USA | A little story I used to visit a very well known musky lure builder at his shop/store. Went there more to talk bs than buy. One day I finally asked him the big question. "Why do your lures cost more here in your own store? If I travel 2 miles down the road to a national sports store, I can buy the same lure for $2 less. His answer was simple. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Dont compete with the guy who puts food on your table. I bought a new lure from him. Well worth the education. | ||
| anzomcik |
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Posts: 532 | I am a manufacturer, with that said I am also very small so my perspective is as such. I had a booth at Chicago, most everyone who I talked to said they never heard of me. Chicago is a good distance from my home so I didn't expect to be known here as I am here at home. If it takes 500 miles away from home to have no body know my name, I had to work to sell a 1 bait to a person who doesn't know me. That being said, would a retailer buy 50, 100, 200 baits from a person they never heard of? I have a 40hour a week job, I make baits to supplement my income. I have several friends who also make baits, some do it full time some do it on the side. After Chicago I did have several retailers talk about carrying my product. Some took it further than others, the ones that went further, I asked about them to my friends who been making baits longer than myself. Some of retailers in question my friends have said "guy to work with" or "late payer" or "I got screwed out of 200 baits, don't deal with" Just because they own a retail shop doesn't mean they practice good ethics or business, how many hits can a basement guy take from a retailer that buys X number of baits gets them shipped in only to screw the maker on the deal with a no pay?. The same can be said about bait makers not paying all their taxes, but that's another story. So for me going to the shows is my way of getting most of my compensation for my work that goes into baits. Making baits isn't a free endeavor, going to shows isn't free, the booth isn't free, the lodging isn't free, the travel isn't free. I have been trying to get a few of the big retailers to carry my product, all I have got is "No" or no response at all after I send them baits for free to try (which by the way is the most common response once they agree to give the baits a shot). I would love to have a retailer carry my baits to all the shows (I belive I have found one) so I do not have to spend the thousands of dollars and days on the road away from my family. But it isn't easy to get that. So primarly I am doing that. If my guy who I found will continue to do that I will not go and be at those shows he will be at. Also I am obligated not to under sell him, which I do not or ever will do. So if you have read this far in my post I hope you can see that it isn't all "good old American greed" to want to promote, sell and profit from your work. Everyone expects to get a paycheck at the end of the work week at your 40hour, the shows for small bait makers is like getting your paycheck, only it comes a couple times a year and has to last all year long. I cant understand how that is "Greed" from my point of view Peter. as for a maker show only, It would be fun, not sure how it would work out in terms of location. But I would be interested. | ||
| muskyrat |
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Posts: 455 | Not much to add other than the handmade baits are part of what makes this sport great. If you fish Bass you are relegated to factory made for the most part. How many muskie baits that went from hand made to factory made got better? There is a reason people want originals. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32955 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Retail makes the Sport work. | ||
| Jason Bomber |
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Posts: 574 | I went to Chicago, and Madison shows this year.. Chicago I went mainly to replace a bump board.. (Thorne Bros) Madison I needed a quick release for my Terrova..Thornes again Ended up buying 4 underdawgs, 4 DCGs a Twistd sistr and some random swimbait in Chicago, and then 2 pounders in Madison.. I wouldn't have gone to either of these shows or bought any of the other stuff if a "retailer" Hadn't been there with what I actually needed | ||
| backdraft |
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Posts: 241 | I buy direct from the Manufacturer and Retailers. Many times retailers only have a fraction of the colors available. I like Mepp's model. You can buy from either, but you will pay more - much more - if you buy from them direct. You also didn't see Mepp's at any of the shows and they are located right here in Wisconsin. I bought a #5 from the Musky Shop at the Milwaukee show. This is what I do. I call or visit an independent first - Smokey's or the Musky Shop. I ask if they can get such and such in this size or color, length, etc. If they can - we got a deal. If not, I go direct. I try to support "the little guy". The last place I will go is to Cabela's, Gander Mountain, or Bass Pro. They have enough sales from other sources. They don't get my "Muskie Money". Backdraft Edited by backdraft 3/2/2014 10:41 AM | ||
| woodieb8 |
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Posts: 1530 | i build. theres no easy button in the industry. | ||
| muskyroller |
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Posts: 1038 Location: North St. Paul, MN | I can speak on behalf of Andy and FatAZMusky products. Used the raptors last fall and hammered a bunch of fish on them. I was very excited to try it as it was something I did not have in my tackle box. It's unfortunate bigger retailers are not picking up the raptor or Andy's other products. It's definitely a niche I don't think is out there in the musky world. Good luck Andy...I hope you're able to continue to make quality musky lures! | ||
| kyle smoker tackle |
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| From what I've seen at the shows ,it seems like the retailers carry mostly the same stuff other retailers carry ie. Cowgirls bulldawgs phantoms jakes ect.This was the 12th year we done shows.In the beginning we only carried customs and sent people to retailers for stock colors.Once retailers stopped bringing them to shows we decided if they wont bring them we would.We cant understand why they dont because they can always get there orders filled promptly when they order them.It's obvious they sell because I've done this fulltime for years.And have never undercut any retailers. I understand you have to take care of them but one of two shows a year isn't going to break them. | |||
| Junkman |
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Posts: 1220 | There is an "evolution" aspect as well. A guy who starts small has to depend on shows to sell direct. Nobody is going to fault him for this. But...once he has began a relationship with retailers, he has to respect them. I see it as a marriage. You can date who you want before you stand at the alter. If you do it after the wedding, you deserve to be tossed out. | ||
| Top H2O |
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Posts: 4080 Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Peter Stoltman - 3/2/2014 5:57 AM This is just my opinion so don't take it as me representing anyone but myself but here goes. The musky "industry" is so ass backwards compared to just about any other business model. Manufacturers want to sell at shows so they can put some fast cash in their pocket for a few days a year. I get that. Good old American greed. The retailer is purchasing product and stocking it, warehousing, advertising, paying sales staff, in some cases traveling to shows, etc, all year long to sell the manufacturers product. Now when the retailer places an order so he can sell your product the "manufacturer" doesn't have product to ship because he is either sold out and it will take him weeks to build more product or he doesn't want to supply the product until he gets first whack at selling to the public. It really is a bunch of BS. The retailers share some blame in this because they let it happen in the first place. I've talked to execs in other industries and they have universally told me that if any of their suppliers were found selling to the end user at a trade show, that would be the end of the relationship. The whole concept of "shows" in the musky industry is not really a trade show anymore. It's really more like a craft fair. Those who want the retailers out of the shows are getting their way as retailers realize it's futile to expend the time, energy, and money to put together an effective display at the show and make any money at it with your suppliers selling against them up and down the aisles. Agree.... The musky world is Super Small, and a manf. show only would just be a Fail Can't you small lure builders sell your baits online ? wouldn't that be more successful ? I can see a Shark Tank Episode with a muskie lure builder getting scrutinized ......That would be a good one. | ||
| kyle smoker tackle |
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| I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers just wanted to see what the general population thought about it. | |||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32955 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Actually, this is a great conversation. | ||
| Corso Mike |
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Posts: 182 | Peter Stoltman - 3/2/2014 5:57 AM This is just my opinion so don't take it as me representing anyone but myself but here goes. The musky "industry" is so ass backwards compared to just about any other business model. Manufacturers want to sell at shows so they can put some fast cash in their pocket for a few days a year. I get that. Good old American greed. The retailer is purchasing product and stocking it, warehousing, advertising, paying sales staff, in some cases traveling to shows, etc, all year long to sell the manufacturers product. Now when the retailer places an order so he can sell your product the "manufacturer" doesn't have product to ship because he is either sold out and it will take him weeks to build more product or he doesn't want to supply the product until he gets first whack at selling to the public. It really is a bunch of BS. The retailers share some blame in this because they let it happen in the first place. I've talked to execs in other industries and they have universally told me that if any of their suppliers were found selling to the end user at a trade show, that would be the end of the relationship. The whole concept of "shows" in the musky industry is not really a trade show anymore. It's really more like a craft fair. Those who want the retailers out of the shows are getting their way as retailers realize it's futile to expend the time, energy, and money to put together an effective display at the show and make any money at it with your suppliers selling against them up and down the aisles. I hear you loud and clear. I am a business owner, not in the fishing industry, most of the time when you hear this noise it is that they are looking for a deal and skip the retailer and save themselves some major cash. Most people don't have a clue what it costs to run a business. I could give you a long list of people and businesses that need to be paid every month and the business owner here is the last one on the list. God help you if you have a good year because your least favorite uncle will be there for more than his fair share. | ||
| Corso Mike |
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Posts: 182 | kyle smoker tackle - 3/2/2014 2:23 PM I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers just wanted to see what the general population thought about it. Ruffled feathers! You just pulled this bird through a knot hole backwards! | ||
| PIKEMASTER |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | There is a Manufacturing Fishing show, it is called ICAST, it is once a year and it is for Manufacturers to show case products and for retailers to come to the show to place orders for the year. It is not open to the public. As far as Manufacturers selling at Musky shows to the public, I see nothing wrong with that, Thank God they do, I like getting deals on one off colors and over stocks and end of the run baits, I don't work at a bait store so I like to buy my baits when there is a deal or a one of a kind bait I want. Most Manufacturers have stores at their plants open to the public like ST CROIX, and PLANO and sell to the public direct at a BIG DISCOUNT some products are damage and end of the run lines, and over stocks. I don't see Bass Pro or Cabela's having a fit over that. I think the Musky shows would be VERY BORING if Manufacturers would not sell at the shows. Small manufacturers have to sell at shows to keep going and pay the bills. It's hard to anticipate what retailers will order and how many, so I can understand they will not always have that product in stock. They know how many shows are in the year so they will make baits for the shows to sell while waiting for retailers to place orders for baits. Alot of Retailers place orders at the last minute because most have a cash flow problem so they don't order product monthly so a small Manufacturers can keep up, they wait till spring and place a large order that a small Manufacturer can not fill at the last minute. If a retailer has a problem with someone pick up the phone and call them and work it out, that's what I would do. | ||
| Propster |
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Posts: 1901 Location: MN | Not to mention most retailers will cherry pick most manufacturers products and carry only the top few best sellers. It definitely is a different arrangement in the musky world, but things are changing elsewhere as well. Where many manufacturers in other industries used to feel the need to honor the retailer and not sell to the public at all, many now do, either online or through plant "stores". | ||
| Peter Stoltman |
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Posts: 218 | No problem with small guys selling at the shows, for that matter even the bigger guys but then don't complain when a retailer doesn't order in the numbers you think he should. You already sold to his customer. Likewise if the retailer does exhibit at a show and NOT bring your stuff or bring a small quantity. Do you really think a customer walking the aisles is going to buy a stock product from the retailer when the manufacturer is selling hot custom "show only" colors? Same thing with manufacturers holding back on new products to the retailer until after the shows so they can take the cream off the top. If a guy is a hobby builder and doesn't want to work with the retail outlets that's fine and there is plenty of room for those small craftsmen in the industry. Many of you guys who do that are my friends and I've always respected those guys who understand their position and possible limitations in the industry. In fact many of you know that I refer people to builders who Do Not sell where I work because I believe in their product and the integrity of the individual. Manufacturers having stores at their manufacturing facility is a whole different story. The "deals" you get are on blemished product or closeouts. If they sell new product it is usually at MAP pricing which is the manufacturers advertised price. They don't undercut their dealers. I have never seen St. Croix, Shimano, or Abu Garcia (to name a few) sell product at the show. They refer customers to those dealers who are at the show and are happy to take big re-stocking orders after the show. If you want retailers out of the show business you end up cutting your own throat because those are the guys who are buying large chunks of booth space, sponsoring show related events, etc. You might as well just forget the show and have the Saturday night swap meet. Seems to me that when shows start going downhill you hear the cry from attendees that it's turning into a flea market, unrelated business ventures take the space that was once purchased by industry vendors, and after a couple years of that the attendance starts declining. Not talking only about musky shows here but think about some of the great shows of years past that are either gone of a shadow of their former selves. The musky industry in general cries about not getting the respect or attention that it deserves yet it tends to operate like the wild west with the latest "fast gun" getting the attention and raking in the dough until the next guy comes along to bump you off. If this industry REALLY wanted to progress and get better quality products and innovations from major sport industry suppliers, we should put our big boy pants on and act like a real business. Edited by Peter Stoltman 3/2/2014 7:19 PM | ||
| HoulihanJustin |
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Posts: 46 | I have thought about this for years. I have spoken to many show attendees and booth buyers as well. I think that the industry has two possible options. 1) Keep things as is and watch the growth curve of buyers and sellers (attendees and total number of products purchased). 2) Shake up a show location or two with manufacturers only. This may allow smaller buisnesses to join their similar/bigger competition. If they do decide to sell, I would like to see custom colors and models only. Bring your standard items, but allow the customer to choose which shop (or online retailer) to buy at once they leave the show. I hope that both the manufacturers and retailers continue. 2015 will be a change up from years past. Only after the show and feedback will we determine if adding/subtracting retailers will be a good or bad thing for our entire sport. | ||
| Peter Stoltman |
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Posts: 218 | I don't think you'll have to wonder too long about how things shake out with retailers. They have been making their decisions over the last 5 years. Only a very few attend shows at the level they did 5 years ago. When I worked at my previous employer we attended and exhibited at probably 7 or 8 shows. I think that company is down to 2 shows now. My current employer did in excess of 12 shows and at one time had exhibits at 3 shows on the same weekend. We now do one. Pastika's attended a bunch of shows and they're out of business. Smokey's did at least a few shows and they don't exhibit anymore. Numbers of smaller retailers who would be good for 20-40 feet of booth space no longer show up. As they said in the Godfather, it's not personal it's business. You can't continue to buy floor space, pay staff, house, feed, gas, AND put out the money to have a well stocked booth if you can't expect to come back with a few bucks in your pocket. By the way, I wonder how many of the smaller guys report and pay taxes to the state they're exhibiting in. Trust me, if you are a legit retailer and Don't accurately report and pay those taxes you WILL regret it. Just another little expense that gets overlooked. | ||
| kyle smoker tackle |
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| Valid points from everyone.I guess it's a catch 22,we're all trying to make a buck. | |||
| h2os2t |
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Posts: 941 Location: Freedom, WI | Pete really does have a good handle on things with his posts. | ||
| PIKEMASTER |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | As a consumer I want to buy from the Manufacturers at the shows and go to a Tackle store and find it well stocked, I see your points, wish it was a perfect world. Then Retailers have to compete with Internet sales and EBay sales, I'm surprised that retailers sell anything. | ||
| nazercl |
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| Pete Stoltman for Commerce Secretary.... | |||
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