|
|
Posts: 93
| Just a thought. I've been seeing a lot of muskies wising up to popular baits such as anything with double 10's, dawgs, dussas, and various twitch. It makes sense. There are a lot more musky fishermen now and are pounding the popular waters over and over. These fish have been hooked and caught many times, and I think they're becoming more discerning. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 5874
| Nope. Fish can't wise up, because they can't think. They are bsolutely stupid. Now, do they exhibit condition response behavior? I suspect so. Instinct, but not conscious thought.
Lot's of discussion if you search for it.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8866
| They probably do become conditioned to an extent. But the fact that we can catch the same fish again and again on a lure that doesn't look like food or act like food or sound like food leads me to believe there really isn't that much going on upstairs. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Define 'conditioned', please. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1297
Location: Walker, MN | I got really frustrated throwing big rubber this year. I tried different profiles, spinners and presentations with not much luck. I think a bait that sits in the fishes face for a time gets studied after a while. I also moved way more fish on double 8's then on d10's or bigger this year. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 93
| Masqui-ninja - 11/14/2013 9:25 AM
I got really frustrated throwing big rubber this year. I tried different profiles, spinners and presentations with not much luck. I think a bait that sits in the fishes face for a time gets studied after a while. I also moved way more fish on double 8's then on d10's or bigger this year.
I caught more on double 8's too.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 4342
Location: Smith Creek | sworrall - 11/14/2013 9:15 AM
Define 'conditioned', please.
Nourished and moisturized, or silky and smooth? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | two cents on the pile: I think we as anglers find it easy to give fish our "human" preferences. We tend to focus on what we see, (color is a good example as a priority item vs lower on the requirements.) Same with individual baits. Blades, a form developed from spoons have been catching Muskie since they figured out how to make a stiff fishing rod. This is the only time I make a reference to GOLF as a metaphor for fishing. Pace, Pace, Pace. If the pace of the bait is in the activity window of the fish, if it is of the preferred size class/profile. More than likely the fish will feed. There are many reasons a fish will "strike/nudge" a bait, an anglers concentration level is normally the difference in turning those into hookups or another "what the H@@@!" |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8866
| sworrall - 11/14/2013 9:15 AM
Define 'conditioned', please.
What I mean by becoming "conditioned" is that after repeated exposure to lures going by, they become less likely to react to them under most conditions. Much like a school of bluegills will ferociously attack and then spit out anything that falls into the water that is not food. After a few tries, they ignore it. An hour later, you can go back and they'll do the same thing all over again. I think it's similar with muskies on heavily pressured waters. Unless it's time to eat, by the 5th or 6th time they've seen a double 10 today, they are much less apt to chase it or try to eat it. On the lakes where you have people fishing constantly, lures just become part of the environment.
Are they getting smarter? No.
Are they still going to eat anything that moves when it's time to eat? Yes.
The real question is whether that conditioned (lack of) response actually lasts for any length of time. My guess is that we're probably talking about a few hours, maybe a day. Give them a week without seeing lures, and they'd probably all react just like you'd see on a lake where nobody fishes.
They evolved over tens of thousands of years to do three things: Eat, spawn, and don't become bear food. I doubt much we do is going to change their behavior. |
|
| |
|
| The point is that they stop biting baits that people are pounding the water with. Makes sense as anecdotal evidence supports it. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Muskies do not 'stop biting' baits, they simply become more difficult to trigger as the reaction to the footprint (stimulus) falls off. The bait signature that was 'new' and elicited a stronger response is now part of the everyday environment and requires a more active fish than it once did.
As everyone knows, the lures keep catching fish, but the curve levels out eventually. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2088
| An ant will run away from you when you invade its space.....fish are stupid, but ya, you pressure the crap out of them they get very negative..... it not the lures - a good lure is a good lure for a fish that is not completely "shut-off" - I've caught the same fish countless times on the same lure. Heck one time in Northern Canada I caught the same 36" pike on the same black fly three days in a row. And had it hook again day 4  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20281
Location: oswego, il | I see it alot, lakes that have fish that bit in everything, the masses come and your eventually lucky to get one that wont flash off at the boat. Some lakes will cycle this process in 3 weeks time down in the flatland. No boats all summer then the water cools off it gets pounded and the fish that were eating at your feet have the oh shucks moment 5 feet away. Its not even the lure its boats pressure and catching fish.
I do get that fish don't think or reason. They must be aware? The other thing that could be debated is bow much stimuli for how long can change behavior.
Edited by ToddM 11/14/2013 12:30 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8866
| The fact that fish will follow several times, less aggressively each time, leads me to believe it only takes a couple of casts. Luckily they apparently don't have the capacity for long term retention. If you've ever watched a fish chase down prey and how that prey reacts, it's pretty obvious why lures don't get eaten as often as we'd like. I suspect that if someone were to make a lure that actually mimics the movements of the forage muskies typically prey on it would get eaten much more often than the stuff we're throwing now. Sort of off topic here, but that's why some people catch fish on certain lures and others do not. The more you can make that lure dart around, break the surface, and actually do what fish do, the better your results are going to be. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2088
| banjo minnow....it stimulates a genetic response, watch the infomercial |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20281
Location: oswego, il | So does playboy! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8866
| IAJustin - 11/14/2013 2:56 PM
banjo minnow....it stimulates a genetic response, watch the infomercial :)
I think I still have some of those things gathering dust in the basement from many moons ago. Funny stuff right there! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 152
Location: Nowhere near where I should be | http://blog.lib.umn.edu/hamdi002/blog/2011/11/have-we-been-underest...
You can buy fish training kits if you can believe that.
Well, one would assume goldfish have a smaller brain than a musky. If you can train a goldfish to respond positively to food one could almost expect a negative response if the food becomes a trap. Slap 8 ouhgts and 16 ounces of rubber in his face hold him against his will remove him from his environment enough times i would guess it could be very possible he would not want to do it again. I would call that a form of conditioning through a "bad footprint" in the fishes wee little brain |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Enough times' is the key. We had some esox in an aquarium, and whenever I walked into the room, they would come to the front of the tank hoping for food. Whenever the cat walked into the room, they did the same thing.
'Conditioning' needs to be studied without the veil of anthropomorphism. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8866
| sworrall - 11/14/2013 6:11 PM
'Enough times' is the key. We had some esox in an aquarium, and whenever I walked into the room, they would come to the front of the tank hoping for food. Whenever the cat walked into the room, they did the same thing.
Maybe your fish were just stupid? 
There was a case a while back where a trout hatchery had to change their feeding methods because the fish had become acclimated to being pellet fed from shore. When those fish were stocked, they apparently associated a person standing on shore with feeding time, and were all promptly caught and eaten by anglers throwing stuff with hooks into the water. Survival rates were dismal. There's little doubt that evolution has given fish the ability to discern where the food is and what cues are present to indicate when that food will arrive. I think it's a stretch to give them credit for much else, though. Thousands of years of evolution at work, and the only thing that may well invoke a negative response is something that looks like a bear or an Eagle. |
|
| |
|
|
Maybe your fish were just stupid?
There was a case a while back where a trout hatchery had to change their feeding methods because the fish had become acclimated to being pellet fed from shore. When those fish were stocked, they apparently associated a person standing on shore with feeding time, and were all promptly caught and eaten by anglers throwing stuff with hooks into the water. Survival rates were dismal. There's little doubt that evolution has given fish the ability to discern where the food is and what cues are present to indicate when that food will arrive. I think it's a stretch to give them credit for much else, though. Thousands of years of evolution at work, and the only thing that may well invoke a negative response is something that looks like a bear or an Eagle.
I would also think getting a hook jammed in your mouth and then being lifted a few times would also start to invoke a negative response. Animals/fish survive because they have instincts -- there's a reason that 50 incher made it that far -- it isn't all dumb luck. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 3926
| I'll toss this into the pile...
For about 4 years I lived on a small lake known for big pike. I goofed around and landed on, without doubt, the best colors to troll in the summer. By far the best producing bait was a largest Risto Rap in plumb, trolling fast and stalling the bait. Second color was anything that was pink/white. Used other baits with same results, i.e., trout colors beat every other color X10 in the open water. (The Risto worked best cause we could easily troll it about 5' above the thermo). Looked up the DNR stocking data. Turns out the lake was, MANY years before, repeatedly stocked with rainbow trout. Led me to believe the pike there now, though decendents of the ones who ate up all the lady fingers, are "conditioned" to hit rainbow trout colors. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 152
Location: Nowhere near where I should be | I had muskies in an aquarium also, great pets, fun to feed. I would get the same reaction unless they had just been fed. Anything/anybody moved toward the tank they were stanced to receive why? because that was the only food source. Nothing swam to them, there food came from that object outside the tank and was dropped in . If muskies relate to food/forage they are there to receive thats automatic. I don't think i'd play that off as stupid i'd say it was instinctive they have only one tool to hunt with at this point and it is sight. The lateral line is out because nothings there, yet. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'I would also think getting a hook jammed in your mouth and then being lifted a few times would also start to invoke a negative response. Animals/fish survive because they have instincts -- there's a reason that 50 incher made it that far -- it isn't all dumb luck.'
Actually, it is 'luck' in many cases unless the water is huge and not fished much. On some systems, it's being successfully (and that's a major deal) released several times that does the trick. On others, it's living to be 12 to 15 years or more, and making it to the last few percent of survivors from that year class through the gauntlet of non angling related mortality let alone being caught and released.
Then some sap dangles a sucker in front of your yap....or tosses a new lure..or.... |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2026
| esoxaddict - 11/14/2013 6:57 PM
There was a case a while back where a trout hatchery had to change their feeding methods because the fish had become acclimated to being pellet fed from shore. When those fish were stocked, they apparently associated a person standing on shore with feeding time, and were all promptly caught and eaten by anglers throwing stuff with hooks into the water. Survival rates were dismal. There's little doubt that evolution has given fish the ability to discern where the food is and what cues are present to indicate when that food will arrive. I think it's a stretch to give them credit for much else, though. Thousands of years of evolution at work, and the only thing that may well invoke a negative response is something that looks like a bear or an Eagle.
Maybe the hatcheries should start feeding the musky fingerlings bucktail shaped food??? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Maybe this explains why The muskies were in a "negative" mood for me this season,........I should have put Cisco's or Shad on the side of the boat ,instead of an Eagle....
Attachments
----------------
 025 (640x480).jpg (267KB - 139 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 142
Location: Appleton, WI | Jerome- like this?
Attachments
----------------
IMG_1402.JPG (60KB - 135 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8866
| Do you find a lot of fish bashing into the side of your boat trying to eat those fish?
I think we give them a lot more credit than is due. After seeing them stare down a sucker for 5 minutes and not eat it, or sitting there staring at a bucktail hanging over the edge of the boat, or staring at the trolling motor for minutes on end? Yeah. Fish are not too bright. It's fun to come up with new ways to fool them. I like the pretty paint jobs and having all different sorts of lures. But I'm convinced that most of the muskies we catch would have eaten anything that was in front of their face at the time. That said, I will not dangle my feet in the water anywhere there are muskies. You may think that's dumb, but if they will eat tinsel and blades, something the size shape and color of a fish splashing around in the water is probably fair game. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1168
| Behavior modification studies have been done with fish that have shown that they will behave in certain ways when subjected to a stimulus. These studies have been done under conditions with many controls. Nature does not provide those same controls at a level to condition fish in the same way that you can train a dog. In order for conditioning to work the stimuli has to be repeated over and over under the same conditions. Throw in changing variables of temp, current, light penetration, speed of stimulus (your bait), etc. and your control is shot to pieces.
If the example of being hooked by a big hook once conditions muskies in this way then shouldn't it be a cinch to housebreak a dog? Dog pees on a rug, introduce negative reinforcement once and voila...your dog is housebroken...right? Nope, doesn't work that way. Yes...we are giving these fish way too much credit.
Bettas, goldfish, tetras, etc have been "taught" to swim through hoops and do other things but they were taught this in a very controlled environment. Take two bettas and leave one in the same tank while conducting this experiment. Take the other betta and do the same exact thing except each time move that betta into a different tank, alter the temp slightly, conduct it with the lights out once, next time lights on, third time with strobe lights, and so on. I guarantee that the betta receiving reinforcement in a consistent environment will show a quicker "conditioned" response than the one where everything is changing. A muskie's world is not a very controlled environment.
Read what sworrall is saying about footprints. Read it again and again and again. That's your key. Fish are accustomed to their environment and when you introduce something that upsets that status quo there will often be a response. Once that "new" thing that is introduced becomes "old" it simply fades into the background noise of their environment. Anyone who has ever lived near railroad tracks or a busy highway has experienced this. First few nights when that train rolls by and shakes your house at 2am it is something you are not used to. Given time you adapt to it and don't notice it is there like you did when you first moved in.
When my uncle was still fishing muskie tournaments he made some serious hay exploiting this by fishing thoroughfares. Heavy boat traffic areas that no one else fished because they thought the boat traffic pushed those muskies away. Not the case. The resident fish in those thoroughfares have heavy boat traffic as part of their environment that they are used to. Him introducing a bait altered that footprint because these were fish that were not targeted hardly at all. If you dump a bunch of boat traffic onto midlake structure it will impact the resident population until they adapt to it. Once it blends in with their environment it's as if they don't even notice it just as they don't notice it in areas with heavier traffic. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 68
| Ulbian --- So in one paragraph you state that fish in the wild can't become conditioned as there are too many factors and not enough repititions, yet in the last two paragraphs you talk about fish becoming conditioned. I guess it's splitting hairs to say "trained" vs "conditioned", but I think that most people are using those terms interchangeably. I don't think it's just luck that a few fish make it to adulthood while most don't. Sure, there is some luck involved but maybe that fish has just a little better instincts that allowed it to survive. |
|
| |
