|
|
Posts: 1916
Location: Greenfield, WI | Outside of the pro muskie fisherman tournaments, what is the status of muskie tournaments which you attend and participate?
In over 20 years of the Hodag hosted by the Rhinelander Chamber of Commerce, and I only have missed three years, I have the history to see that the Hodag is less than half of the size which it enjoyed in it's heyday.
What do you think would improve their attendance?
Have tournaments run their course?
Edited by Steve Van Lieshout 9/23/2013 8:56 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1041
| I think the economy has hurt all tournaments.
But I think that the management of a tournament is a big thing and can either boost attendence or hurt attendence.
Case in point, I think there will be a good turnout for the Three Charlie's Tournament on Pewaukee this fall. Those guys at Smokeys do a good job marketing the events and stressing that half the proceeds go to stocking the lake. I think on Saturday they released 200 extended growth muskies into the lake from last year's tournament.
And the fees are doable. $150 a boat or $75 per person.
Some other tournaments won't draw like that tournament will, IMHO of course. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32959
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Tournament participation is down for several $ reasons, including gas prices, lodging costs, and payouts. In the case of the Hodag, it's been continuing diminishing returns. There used to be a guaranteed $20K first place for that event, the media (including MuskieFIRST) was there, and pre-event/post event promotion was excellent. It looks like the event gained 8 boats this year from last, so it is probably at the point of possible future recovery.
Look at the threads in the tournament forum asking 'anyone know what happened at this event'. That's a MAJOR symptom of the disease. Why would a sponsor invest in an event that offers no ROI in the form of media exposure? It's all in the impressions....and content creation for web and social media distribution.
OFM tried (really did try) to get the Chamber to listen to what made the Hodag successful in the past, tie it back in to the industry connections of the past, and offered to consult to help grow the event; all at no charge, of course, we are headquartered out of Rhinelander and had ties all the way back to the first Hodag. We were met with what I'd describe as animosity, which is odd, so we point the cameras elsewhere now.
It sounds like the WMT has shrunk some as well. The entry for those events is very reasonable and the events are well run. Diminishing returns again. The PMTT has the same disease to a lesser degree, and is holding steady with numbers because of their attention to detail.
It's really simple. The teams are fishing for as little as 55% of their own money, anything past second place will be a net loss, and the bigger payouts per event of recent history are exactly that....history.
The tournaments need to re-engage industry sponsorship and gain new participation through better payouts and media exposure.Walleye tournaments were suffering the same way and the FLW dropped Walleye last year as AIM struggled due to lack of TV and industry sponsorship, and thankfully this year the Cabelas National Walleye Tour (A Ranger Boats driven circuit) stepped up, cooperating with the Walleye federation, the National Professional Anglers Association, and the entire industry, and fielded a winning first year circuit. The Championship payout was 100% of entry plus, paid $87,000.00 to St. Croix/Ranger Pro Chris Gilman, and Josh Venderweide took home over $50K for second. The payout was pretty deep into the field as well, paying $4,000 with zero contingencies to Lund/Mercury Pro Mark Brumbaugh.
100% payout of entry is a key ingredient for any single event. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i see it as a double edged sword ... professional grade guys need average angler money to build a purse and average anglers want more value. until a true sponsor steps up and puts jingle into professional tournaments there will be none. and the "outing" style tournaments with lower cost and higher value (door prizes etc...) will always be well-attended i.e.: spring classic.
seems the PMTT is well-run and delivers what is advertised and there are some good chamber/club events running so the hope is there are more clubs looking to do the work to bring competitive anglers together. the Northwoods Chapter of Muskies Inc. is in the planning stage for a new tournament in 2014. |
|
| |
|
Location: Illinois | I think the average Joe doesn't want to compete. They see competition as an obstacle to catching fish. There's a large segment that would not ever fish a tourney, regardless of sponsors, regardless of payouts, regardless of location. It's a fringe market within a fringe sport. Confounding the problem is, at least in my opinion, an over- saturation of circuits, club events, without enough demand to go around. As the participation decreases, payouts go down, reducing demand even further. The payout of a small to medium field doesn't justify the cost of travel and entry. The way to increase demand is to reduce supply. Perhaps hold that club tourney every 2 years, and choose another form of fundraiser in the off years. Perhaps reduce the number of events on your circuit by 30%. Although we as a sport are growing fast, we're still a niche market who've been spreading ourselves out too thin. Less is more. I don't know how we go about achieving it, but it's food for thought, and my own two cents worth. Mike Witowski
Edited by muskellunged 9/23/2013 12:11 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1220
| I think Steve's comment about the cash that it costs to fish compared to the cash you are likely to win is pretty much on target when looking at the root causes of declining participation. When those who allowed the big-shots of Wall Street to loot the economy in November of 2008, they also hurt everything to do with musky tournaments and full fields dwindled down to half fields. There was just no way for the tournament promoters to have anything left over to build with, travel costs remained huge and a lot of the folks couldn't continue. I have a couple of thoughts different than most however. First, while everybody admits the economy took a toilet flush in 2008, most are too stubborn to admit it's finally getting better. I think the decline in participation has begun to reverse itself and next year is likely to be pretty good. Next, it's really not so much "about the money." For most of us, this is our hobby, not a business, nobody is really sponsored nor winning enough to be really considered a "Pro." To be a pro means making a living at it. So, I'd say a full time musky guide is a pro cuz it's his living. The average tournament guy is "just a guy" who does it for fun. We enjoy the sport in a slightly different fashion. It's like taking a chartered bus to Pike's Peak instead of the family car. We enjoy the social aspect of it, the hotel parking lots full of boats and beer at night and so on. Like I posted nearby, there's no need for a lot of debate here: Those who like it say so with their participation, those who don't fish somewhere else. It's just another way to enjoy the sport for those who like a little bit of competitve personality to have an outlet! Marty Forman |
|
| |
|
Posts: 402
Location: Eagle River, WI | I agree with Marty. I always agree with marty.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8865
| It's money.
I've fished tournaments for several MI chapters, and seen numbers decline by over 50% in the last 5 years. It was one thing when gas was $2, everybody was making money, the economy was great, and it was just another weekend trip. We used to have 120 boats for our spring and fall tournaments. Now we struggle to get 30. Most of the guys I talk to say about the same thing:
"Why should I pay money I'm not going to get back, to go share a lake with 100 other boats, to go fish somewhere I really don't want to fish? I'll save my money for Canada instead..."
It's partially about the payouts I guess. But mostly it's just everybody having to cut back. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 393
Location: Hopefully on the water | I use to fish 8-10 a year when I started out fishing Muskies. It was great for the learning curve and advice you pick up IMO. They ranged from the $300 - $50 entry fee per boat. I enjoyed them. Now I fish 2 a year and they are affordable ones.
Personally I think there is as others have said too many out there and too big of circuits. You cut some of the circuits down and I feel you would get a better fill rate by having less. Go up North and pick up some of the local papers and there are different bars having small fun tourneys often.
The two main reasons I only fish two now are Time/Life and Money. First with time/ life to be fishing a tournament every weekend or couple of weekends doesn't leave much time to be with the family and get my kids interested in the outdoors. From the money aspect even at afforadble one it is still lodging (depending where it is) food, the extra gas. The extra gas part of it yeah maybe I would plan on fishing anyways but maybe closer to home or someplace different.
The two tourney's that I fish yet are the KWM on Pelican and the Hayward Muskie Inc tourney. They are both affordable, the possibility of maybe making some money is only part of it. The excitement, meeting new people, and the laid back and just go have fun are the big parts of why I fish these. What helps them is that they are both very well run, organized, good causes and they promote them with the door prizes.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2331
Location: SE, WI. | Love fishing tourneys. Always will. Fish 1 -3 tourneys a year. BUT the tournament fees are way too pricey. You need to get interest from the average Joe to start filling these events. Bring entry fees down and they will come. Most would like to fish the tourney's for fun. Win a bit of $$$, well thats a bonus. Most people want a more even breakdown of $$$, and a payout of at least 9 - 10 places. Lets face it, the more people that cut a check, they will be back next year. Talk on the WMT, is that they take way too much $$$ out of the qualifiers, so they can boast about the year end Big Money finale. Some Fisherman seem to be turned off by that! Lets face it...most of us are baby boomers, we enjoyed tourneys for years, But our sights are more geared towards our future and retirement. Most of the kids now a days are more interested in rock concerts and I pads, games on the computer. Wee Fishing  The future of tournaments may fall off as these kids have no interest or knowledge on how to go about fishing a tourney. I try to get nieces, nephews, & neighbors out fishing and they have no interest in it. When I was a kid, I always wanted to go fishing. Have 9 or 10 first place finishes under my belt, but like others stated, would rather plan a trip or 2 to canada, then to go and fish congested waters. SVL. good topic;)
Edited by jdsplasher 9/23/2013 5:50 PM
|
|
| |
|
| I think that for most it does come down to money. There just aren't that many people who are going to fish an entire circuit so most people pick out maybe 3-4 tourneys a year to fish. Unless the payout is huge what's the point of driving far distances? Most people will just fish tourneys that are around them locally as there are enough of them. If the pmtt is near, great -- if it's another tourney, fine. Except for a few people who fish the entire circuit, most of the tourneys are just local people. There are too many tourneys out there to justify driving long distances. I think the pmtt does the best job overall but their entry fee is what keeps some away (is my guess). The tourneys need sponsors to help boost the overall payouts but you aren't going to get any sponsors if they don't see a return, so it's a tough thing. I think the days of big money payouts is over for the most part. It's simple supply and demand -- too many tourneys, not enough people to go around fishing them = low payouts = low interest level. |
|
| |
|
| when and where matters a lot. put a tournament on waters that i'm already interested in fishing, and schedule it at the right time of year for that water. to me, interesting waters have a track record of reasonable numbers and good size.
for example, i drove 8 hours each way, paid for 4 nights lodging, food, gas, etc. to fish the Frank Schneider Muskies Inc tournament this year because it has great lake options at an ideal time of year. all i came away with was a t-shirt, but i'll be back next year because it's fun, the prize structure is appealing (caught fish = entry in drawing for boat), and that's when/where i want to fish already.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 174
Location: Ontario | From what I'm reading, musky fishing is on the rise. Its not what I'm seeing here in Ontario. To be honest, fishing in general has been abandoned by younger groups here. Too much phones and video I guess. Our fishing club has 17 members and we do 2-3 tournaments a year. You be lucky to see another 2-3 boats out there this weekend. Gas prices at our marinas are at $8.00 a gallon, so you better really love the sport at these prices. But hell...I'm going out this weekend and giving er !! |
|
| |
|
| Don't fish tournaments, never will. Musky fishing is too special to let it be turned into a money grab, competitive, sport. The musky is the prize, not the cash.
Your millage may vary.
Mudpuppy |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1348
Location: Pewaukee, WI | i agree 100% with what mudpuppy said. The money angle takes all the natural fun out of the sport and you feel pressured to produce or see your entry fee go down the drain. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32959
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Some folks like fishing tournaments and some don't. Neither is 'right' or 'wrong'. One might feel 'pressured', while another angler sees it as an attractive challenge. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 69
| I like the Muskies Inc chapter tournaments. in general you deal with nice friendly people and it is geared more to having a good time than win at all costs mentality. They are mostly prize based not cash based and help the local clubs. I plan on fishing more of them next summer. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 720
| I often wonder why the money aspect of fishing tournaments takes the fun out of it for people. It's not like were fishing for $100,00.00 dollars. If you feel the added pressure of the money involved I would say by all means don't fish them. Its suppose to be fun. If you're looking to make money there are far better things a person could do for that. I enjoy the adventure of it. Usually new water, a lot of good people participating and watching how the good sticks pick apart a body of water. And, if I'm going to be totally honest here. I like to see how my plans for fishing that weekend stack up with the rest of the crews. Its a lot fun and I have made some really good friends participating in tournaments. But whats good for me might not be good for someone else.
Edited by Hunter4 9/24/2013 7:12 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 171
| Anyone who has anything negative too say about fishing a muskie tournament must have had some kind of negative experience while fishing one - personally. If you have never fished one, I would highly suggest the experience.
In no way do tournaments take anything away from you or the general nature of the sport... that is all in your head. The competition... all in your head. The must win attitude, the need to wear a jersey with a bunch of logos on it to turn it into a promotion or advertising outlet... all a decision you make on your own. I like to wear solid tee's. Its just as fun that way.
Muskie tournaments are an awesome way to spend a weekend fishing and with your friends. Club and 'pro' tournaments - they are all the same. Plain and simple.
www.promusky.com
www.illmuskie.com
Edited by bshep 9/24/2013 11:19 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32959
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'the need to wear a jersey with a bunch of logos on it to turn it into a promotion or advertising outlet'
That's called 'sponsorship' and allows many of the tournament anglers out there to be able to afford to fish competitively. You may note tournament promoters rely on sponsorships and promotional partnerships to afford to be able to offer the venue, as well. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 171
| This is actually the full quote Mr. Worrall:
"The must win attitude, the need to wear a jersey with a bunch of logos on it to turn it into a promotion or advertising outlet... all a decision you make on your own."
Thank you for clarifying a partial section of the statement I wrote with a general description of what I described. Of course you are correct on the general and well known term known as 'sponsorship.' The fact that it is a decision you make on your own still stands.
Some guys do not fish tournaments for this very reason and I was simply pointing out that it is a decision YOU make and not required by any means nor should it intimidate you. For some odd reason there are a lot of people in Bass circuits who vote against allowing 'pros' to compete with them as they consider themselves to be 'average Joes.' That is Bass, but the same goes with Muskie tournaments as there has been plenty of discussion about it. With that being said, tournaments are a great way to spend the weekend whether you want to make it a career or hobby and each and every person out there has a shot at the trophy, plaque, or even cash.
The only person you should ever compete against is yourself.
Edited by bshep 9/25/2013 12:17 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1220
| I made a comment about "nobody really being sponsored" that I would like to elaborate on. When I think about sponsored with respect to "really sponored," I think KVD (Kevin Van Dam) the BassMaster who gets a free truck, free boat, free equipment, all his entries and travel expenses paid for in full. In addition to nothing out of pocket and keeping his winnings, he is paid just to show up too--LOT$. In the musky world nobody has that. A lot of us have sponsors but it is mostly in the form of a discount, maybe 10-15% off the cost of boat and motor, higher on the rods and reels etc. In some ways it's a lot like any good customer gets from a company they are loyal customers to and where they shop exclusively. Sure, we show up to help out at boat shows and such, but it is no where like doing it for a "living." I don't think you could find a tournament musky guy whose income tax would ever exceed a couple of thousand bucks. As to the shirts, well it's really only the PMTT and the musky expos where you see them. At 75% of the events I fish you don't see them. Too bad too, cuz it's part of the fun to wear the colors of the sponsors you have gotten to recognize you as an angler they want to see wear their stuff. Like I said above, outside of the guides and the few with TV shows, IT's A HOBBY, IT's for fun!
It's musky fishing in a social setting. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 4342
Location: Smith Creek | Fun, yes. Exciting and challenging, no doubt.
But woe to the "recreational" angler who shows up at the landing whilst there's a tournament going on.
The tourney anglers get the thrill of the competition, the tournament director gets his coin (too much, in some trails) and the recreational angler looking to enjoy the public resource gets it in the shorts. Of course if its a charitable tourney its all good, but when 1-3 guy's pockets are being lined its pretty unfair. |
|
| |
|
| Strongly anti tournament for ME, and my choice of waters, but not at all against it for you and waters 50 miles or more distant. Go Fish!!
The money and time segments are BIG disincentives for tourneys, and had I fairly unlimited amounts of both, I might even get into tourney fishing. Sorry me, I have finite resources, and what I find recreational, is little pressure, and scenic open views. I can see how eventually anglers figure out that they are paying for ego stripes, and in the case of pros, advertising and gladhanding, making connections.
And that is THEIR choice to make, and in the case of guides, might be a good untapped advertising route for themselves, and sponsor securement, though sponsor securement can be a fairly limited economic boon for musky anglers.
I am surprised that no one has pursued a pro-am musky tourney which would include an education blind, which would come later in the form of an extended group of interviews on dvd, with both the top placing teams day by day, AND the teams that chose strategy that brought nothing to the boat. Both would be valuable and interesting pieces of information. Let the amateurs pay the entry, and let the pros run the boat, and let the team scores count for everything and pay places each day and for overall. This would offer the amateurs maximum education from the pros as the pros try and shape a winning strategy for potentially two or three baits per boat, and no, I wouldn't put a cap of two anglers per boat, let the guide or pro take two amateurs and have 3 per boat, and it may make it easier to both support the entry money, and increase the participation by making it more affordable for all. Now both sponsors and pros have a very vested interest in showing up in the tourney. Maybe the next year open the DVD from the tourney up to the public and sell it also, mix in some fish fight footage and it will be great stuff, comparing strategies, for x lakes/bodies of water, at x temperature, with x weather conditions, and x time of year. Wow! Assign pro status to any guide, guide/lure producer, prior tourney winners in various musky tourneys. Now all the guide has for costs is lodging travel and boat, the amateurs get a couple days of intense education and fishing for whatever their share of the entry fee is, + insight after the tourney(dvd) as to what stragtegies were used by the winning teams and what strategies did not pay off for the non productive teams. And draw for new partners the night before each day of the tourney. And it would be possible to have a losers bracket for the second day of the tourney, so a good first days catch would not wipe out all hope for the second day. Provide a couple of decent meals, a few seminars or equipment demonstrations on the side or both. And this is one time where the guide/pro is welcome to fish out of the front!
Probably never happen but it would be very interesting, and I think a format anglers would embrace as a chance to possibly win something and learn a bunch.
|
|
| |
|
| Flambeauski - 9/25/2013 8:36 AM
Fun, yes. Exciting and challenging, no doubt.
But woe to the "recreational" angler who shows up at the landing whilst there's a tournament going on.
The tourney anglers get the thrill of the competition, the tournament director gets his coin (too much, in some trails) and the recreational angler looking to enjoy the public resource gets it in the shorts. Of course if its a charitable tourney its all good, but when 1-3 guy's pockets are being lined its pretty unfair.
Well, not good for the recreational angler who does pull up to that landing, but, they also need to plan their fishing time a little, and have the option of another landing.
There really are NO TOURNAMENTS that are unfair, as any entrant should know what their chances are of winning anything and where the money is going. No one makes anybody ENTER a tourney. Freedom of choice, and buyer beware, are two little saws that apply here.  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1041
| Flambeauski - 9/25/2013 8:36 AM
Fun, yes. Exciting and challenging, no doubt.
But woe to the "recreational" angler who shows up at the landing whilst there's a tournament going on.
The tourney anglers get the thrill of the competition, the tournament director gets his coin (too much, in some trails) and the recreational angler looking to enjoy the public resource gets it in the shorts. Of course if its a charitable tourney its all good, but when 1-3 guy's pockets are being lined its pretty unfair.
I get where you are coming from. But there is a tournament or two that I do not enter, yet I LOVE fishing when the tournament is going on. I get to run more rods and fish my way, all while burning fish. My wife gets quite the kick out of it too.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 171
| Why are you guys mad when you pull up to the launch only to see there is a tournament going on? If its that big of a deal, tournament schedules are usually posted online... not to mention most lakes that hold tournaments are fairly large... if the lake is smaller, go back to your roots as a young buck and realize the potential for learning and the entertainment of watching others catch fish is there for you to witness.
Edited by bshep 9/25/2013 2:27 PM
|
|
| |
|
| Junkman hit the nail on the head..if you like the competition then pursue it..If you do not, then don't .. I think we all respect the subject at hand... |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32959
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | bshep - 9/25/2013 12:01 AM
This is actually the full quote Mr. Worrall:
"The must win attitude, the need to wear a jersey with a bunch of logos on it to turn it into a promotion or advertising outlet... all a decision you make on your own."
Thank you for clarifying a partial section of the statement I wrote with a general description of what I described. Of course you are correct on the general and well known term known as 'sponsorship.' The fact that it is a decision you make on your own still stands.
Some guys do not fish tournaments for this very reason and I was simply pointing out that it is a decision YOU make and not required by any means nor should it intimidate you. For some odd reason there are a lot of people in Bass circuits who vote against allowing 'pros' to compete with them as they consider themselves to be 'average Joes.' That is Bass, but the same goes with Muskie tournaments as there has been plenty of discussion about it. With that being said, tournaments are a great way to spend the weekend whether you want to make it a career or hobby and each and every person out there has a shot at the trophy, plaque, or even cash.
The only person you should ever compete against is yourself.
So the decision to acquire a sponsor to help defray the costs of competitive angling is 'your own'...
Pretty much, yes. That should surprise no one. More times than not, a few of those with no sponsors are 'negative' about those who have a couple. That's just weird. Make the decision not to try to gather any sponsor support...that's fine..but you have nothing to say about it if another angler acquires a few through good old fashion hard work.
You made an obviously negative comment about a competitive angler wearing a sponsor jersey, and there's no argument there.
I think that's (pick an adjective that isn't approving). Just saying...the rest of your comments I find pretty much spot on.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 171
| I did not mean anything negative by that comment. I don't mind it at all and fortunately some of the people I worked for have helped me pay for some tournaments. That is the way the people you describe 'poke fun of' or find 'unattractive' about Muskie tournaments... especially if you view them to be on a lesser level as say big BASS tournaments and find it goofy that guys decorate themselves in such fashion - and of course what I just wrote is only opinion as I believe Muskie tournaments could be a national attraction down the road. I appreciate sponsorship as much as the next guy. Its a great thing and increases participation for sure. I meant nothing bad by the comment personally and I find it as goofy as you do that people think the guys who are sponsored do it to 'show off.'
Muskie tournaments are extremely fun... I have no clue how somebody can think otherwise regardless of any negative experiences they have had. |
|
| |
