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Posts: 410
Location: With my son on the water | Did any body see the Florocarbon Leader fail on Key's outdoors yesterday? I know there is another post on here regrading this but it really makes a guy think twice.
They don't give a lot of details, I wonder what happened? |
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Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | It doesn't matter if the leader is steel or fluoro, ALL leaders can fail. |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Walker, MN | I had one break on a fish too while fishing rocks last year with a dawg. I checked the leader ten min prior and it was a new 130# floro leader. I am religious about checking my leaders for frey. I came back with half a leader. I felt terible. I figured it was a one in a million type situation at the time. I will admit that I was working about as shallow as I could with this lure and banging bottom a bit. Steel might be better in these situations. It would have to be just the right rock at just the right time to damage a heavy floro leader like that and then have a fish strike. I have always obsessed about the condition of mine line and leader, now even more so. |
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | Zib - 3/25/2013 7:52 AM
It doesn't matter if the leader is steel or fluoro, ALL leaders can fail.
True are you suggesting that we quit fishing muskie???
The best leaders out there are the steel leaders from Leaders and lures. Their leaders are rated for the hardware that's on them. In test after test the crimps hold and the wire breaks 1st and not in the loops. They may pigtail a bit, but never kink. I have heard that guides like Doug Johnson and Frank Walsh have caught over 50 muskies on one leader (and countless pike). If that doesn't tell you how durable these leaders are- you just ain't listening.  |
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Posts: 944
| IMO People are trying to use floro way too much. I will not use it casting rubber, jerks or casting and trolling around any kind of structure.
Do you actually think a musky will not hit your lure because you have a wire leader but you have 2 or three big steel treble hooks hanging off the bait????
I have not had any problems catching big fish in clear water using wire leaders.
I use 174# straight wire leaders from Stealth Tackle for all Rubber and jerkbaits
Sure a wire leader can break if you try and use it too long, If it gets kinked bad or has signs of wear replace it...
Anything a you can cut with a knife a musky can cut with their teeth. So many fish "head shoot" jerks and rubber. Alot of the big fish I get on Bulldawgs, Big Joes or Medussa's have 1-3" of leader in their mouth so I use wire.
muskie nut: leaders and lures leaders are far from the best
Jeff Hanson
madisonmuskyguide.com |
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Posts: 624
Location: S.W. WI | Well said Jeff. AMEN!!! |
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Posts: 415
| Jeff I agree with everything you said. Fluoro is great for great leaders but NOT for all uses. |
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| Jeff ---- Excellent !!! ---- jimjimjim |
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Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | muskie! nut - 3/25/2013 9:28 AM Zib - 3/25/2013 7:52 AM It doesn't matter if the leader is steel or fluoro, ALL leaders can fail. True are you suggesting that we quit fishing muskie??? The best leaders out there are the steel leaders from Leaders and lures. Their leaders are rated for the hardware that's on them. In test after test the crimps hold and the wire breaks 1st and not in the loops. They may pigtail a bit, but never kink. I have heard that guides like Doug Johnson and Frank Walsh have caught over 50 muskies on one leader (and countless pike ). If that doesn't tell you how durable these leaders are- you just ain't listening. : )
The components for leaders can fail just as easy as the wire itself. I had a 150 Lb. Sampo BB swivel break on me while jigging Bondy Baits.
As far as "Best Leaders" out there that's just a matter of personal preference.
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Posts: 130
Location: Duluth, MN | muskie! nut - 3/25/2013 8:28 AM
Zib - 3/25/2013 7:52 AM
It doesn't matter if the leader is steel or fluoro, ALL leaders can fail.
True are you suggesting that we quit fishing muskie???
Huh? |
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Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | I use dbl barrel crimps, two per end, then I super glue every one of them after I melt a bulb on the tag ends. I normally use 150-250 lb floro. And still find that after a few outing s the safest thing to do is cut them up and grab a new one. We've had two give since I started using floro, one on a fish. They will break right where the knot is on the main line. We tried sleeves there too, but have not found the real comfort with them. On the other hand several fish landed with the floro w/o problems too. From my observation the snap hook sets are a problem. |
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Posts: 2324
Location: Chisholm, MN | What about 180# plus flouro? That's what I use for most apps. I prefer them for dawgs because they don't bend like a steel leader when you get a dawg ball. Lots of times the fish eats the head of the bait where the leader is connected. Im guessing big sharp teeth can cut it and maybe that's what happened on keyes show. Im still going to use flouro. |
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Location: 31 | Kirby Budrow - 3/25/2013 11:47 AM What about 180# plus flouro? That's what I use for most apps. I prefer them for dawgs because they don't bend like a steel leader when you get a dawg ball. Lots of times the fish eats the head of the bait where the leader is connected. Im guessing big sharp teeth can cut it and maybe that's what happened on keyes show. Im still going to use flouro. There's no question that heavier 180 lb fluorocarbon provides more protection than your typical 80 lb. super line, and that “everything” can fail. However, let’s discuss this rationally with the “everything else” being equal because there’s no way that even heavy fluorocarbon provides the same tooth-proof protection that wire does. Granted, how much protection the different strength fluorocarbons can provide can be argued, but none are 100% tooth-proof. This is not my opinion… it’s a fact, no matter how many years you have used it without a problem because conversely I know people who have been bitten off with it in the first year.
I did a test to see what the difference levels of protection were between 80/180 lb fluorocarbon, and two different 80 lb super lines.
The test was with a razor blade on the different lines pulled tight; and I feel confident in saying that the 80 lb fluorocarbon offers virtually the same protection as the 80 lb super line. I say this because they could all be severed by simply applying moderate pressure with the razor blade. I was somewhat surprised that the 180 lb fluorocarbon stood up pretty well to this test, even when I applied some extra pressure, it took a lot more pressure than the 80 lb before it broke. However, the 180 lb fluorocarbon could be severed with just a moderate pressure slicing motion with the razor blade. (All of the 80 pound stuff was quickly cut in two with a slice).
With that being said; my unscientific assessment is that the 180 lb fluorocarbon offered about 90% better protection than the 80lb lines for the direct pressure test, and about 50% better protection for the slicing test. That's just a guess to give you an idea... I did not test any wire for obvious reasons.
Jeff's experience is spot on based on this test, as well as my own experience. Many times I’ve had my wire leader come back kinked after a fish tried to hit an erratic bait and missed forward of the bait (I've had this happen with a bucktail too) Bottom line; you could have a problem using fluorocarbon with erratic baits, or in dirty water because although the heavier fluorocarbon provides better protection than no leader, it is not tooth-proof.
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Location: 31 | Masqui-ninja - 3/25/2013 7:59 AM I had one break on a fish too while fishing rocks last year with a dawg. I checked the leader ten min prior and it was a new 130# floro leader. I am religious about checking my leaders for frey. I came back with half a leader. I felt terible. I figured it was a one in a million type situation at the time. Probably more like 1 in a 500?… kind of reminds me of what’s said when big poker hands collide on the felt. The typical scenario is on the money bubble with wired KK versus AA all in pre-flop. I can't tell you how many times I’ve heard the guy with the KK say; “what are the chances of that happening”. I like to reply with; “for $20 I'll tell you” … 100%.
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Posts: 833
| I haven't seen the Keyes episode yet, but where did the leader fail? Was it at the crimp, the knot, the hardware, or the flouro itself? Depending on what failed it may not have anything to do with the Flouro.
So here is the question for me: Flouro is not 100% toothproof, but in terms of bite offs, what is the rate of bite offs? Right now this debate seems binary: Does flouro get bit off more than wire: Yes/No? IMO the answer is obviously yes, but for me the question is how much more often? Also, what other advantages does Flouro have over wire?
Here are some I can think of:
I feel it is easier to cast
It offers a degree of stealth depending on the system
Makes the wind-on system possible
I've heard that it is safer for a fish should it roll, but I can't confirm this from my minimal mileage
I personally use a hand made wind-on system that was taught to me by BTURG. Between the 3 anglers, including myself, using this system I would estimate that it put (and I'm quite small in this number) 125-150 fish in the boat just last year. To my knowledge there was not a single bite off and that is with a leader that has up to 5' of Flouro. Maybe this is a statistical anomaly, but that would seem to indicate that while Flouro might not be as certain as wire, it is far from being something that gets bit off with frequency.
The wind-on system alone makes it a no-brainer for me. |
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| Brad P - 3/25/2013 12:30 PM
I haven't seen the Keyes episode yet, but where did the leader fail? Was it at the crimp, the knot, the hardware, or the flouro itself? Depending on what failed it may not have anything to do with the Flouro.
So here is the question for me: Flouro is not 100% toothproof, but in terms of bite offs, what is the rate of bite offs? Right now this debate seems binary: Does flouro get bit off more than wire: Yes/No? IMO the answer is obviously yes, but for me the question is how much more often? Also, what other advantages does Flouro have over wire?
Here are some I can think of:
I feel it is easier to cast
It offers a degree of stealth depending on the system
Makes the wind-on system possible
I've heard that it is safer for a fish should it roll, but I can't confirm this from my minimal mileage
I personally use a hand made wind-on system that was taught to me by BTURG. Between the 3 anglers, including myself, using this system I would estimate that it put (and I'm quite small in this number) 125-150 fish in the boat just last year. To my knowledge there was not a single bite off and that is with a leader that has up to 5' of Flouro. Maybe this is a statistical anomaly, but that would seem to indicate that while Flouro might not be as certain as wire, it is far from being something that gets bit off with frequency.
The wind-on system alone makes it a no-brainer for me.
I agree. The benefits to angler and fish in most situations is why i use it on many set ups. BR |
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Location: 31 | Brad P - 3/25/2013 12:30 PM I haven't seen the Keyes episode yet, but where did the leader fail? Was it at the crimp, the knot, the hardware, or the flouro itself? Depending on what failed it may not have anything to do with the Flouro. So here is the question for me: Flouro is not 100% toothproof, but in terms of bite offs, what is the rate of bite offs?
That's the million-dollar question; and I agree that there might be advantages to fluorocarbon in certain situations, I also did not test the 250 lb… which might hypothetically be 99% more tooth-prove than the superline for muskie.
I do agree that heavy fluorocarbon is better for the fish when it rolls on the leader, but that really only pertains to trolling length leaders and not the typical 12” casting length. I use a long coated seven strand wire for trolling, and it's just as fish friendly as fluorocarbon when they roll up in the line.
Now if you're able to splice a longer length of it in for casting you have a pretty good argument for it being more fish friendly because I've had muskies get some nasty cuts in them when they rolled up a 1’ wire leader and super line.
I personally know a guide who boats hundreds of muskies every year claiming to have never had a bite-off. However, I've also witnessed a bite off firsthand and have tested it for myself and I would never consider using it with an irregular bait like a Bulldog.
IMHO whether or not that particularly leader on Keys was a bite off or not is almost irrelevant, I mean; why speculate on that one particular instance when we already have firsthand testimonials on this thread regarding the bite off possibility.
I think Jeff summed it up well in that fluorocarbon leaders are already part of the terminal tackle landscape, and in his opinion they are overused. That is my opinion as well, and understanding what pound test, when/where/how to use them optimally is the question we need to explore.
I certainly have a preference for fluorocarbon in daytime clear-water situations. However, I also have wire 12” add-ons that I clip on after the sun goes down. I personally see no valid reason for using a fluorocarbon leader after dark and would switch to my standard coated wire if I didn't have to re-tie everything. |
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Posts: 238
| How does it benefit angler or fish if bait is left stuck in the fishes mouth after the floro is cut?
In the keys episode the floro was cut right off.
I had a very large fish eat a bulldawg and cut my 150 pound floro leader off in 10 seconds of thrashing.
I will never use floro for rubber baits again.
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Posts: 833
| Here is a valid reason to use it after dark: Want to use all black baits, like a slow rolled all black Super Model? Using the wind-on leader, the sound change of the leader ticking your rod guides tells you when to inititate your figure 8. You can initiate the 8 the same way every time just by sound. It seems stupid, but that little reminder is a great way to tighten up the transition to your 8, especially when the day runs long and you lose focus. No other leader I know of can do that.
BTURG told me a story last fall where he was out with a client who was legally blind. Using the wind-on leader (and some coaching) this gentleman could execute a flawless figure 8 every time. For guys wanting to put more fish in the bag boatside, (who doesn't?) it is hard to not see the advantage of this system.
That is more of a pitch for the wind on system than anything, but it shows that Flouro certainly has it's advantages. For rubber I use a 200# system and 100# braid, including 100# hollow core for the splice. It is more out of respect for the force exerted by a pounder when a casting mishap happens, but also for how the fish tend to inhale that type of lure. I can see why you'd want to use wire there, but I'm personally sticking with flouro as I'm a fan of the wind-on system.
The one place wind-on offers disdvatnage is in sub freezing temps. Once the mercury drops to the low 30s and guides start getting ice I switch to a more traditional leader. The big think flouro seems to cause accelerate the freeze up process on the guides due to bringing in more moisture than just the braid.
How it failed is worth knowing. If the flouro failed at the crimp or the hardware, then that is not failure of the flouro nor a bite-off, but a faulty leader. It still is bad for the fish just the same, but if you are using it to base a decision on which type of leade to use, then it should be relevant. I don't use crimps in my system.
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| Wire can fail as well, metal fatigue is real. The scars fish receive from wire leaders is very real as well. Line can break, lures can break. There is always a chance of something going wrong, just part of fishing. Each person can use what they like. BR |
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Posts: 89
| I had a Musky bite thru a #100 I talked to the company they said with big rubber go with the #180 because they usually head hit the bait. Since I switched I haven't had a problem YET. |
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Posts: 365
| Lets see now ,,,, if a floro leader gets bit off and the lure gets lodged in the musky's mouth and the musky dies a slow death due to starvation ,,,, thats OK ???? ------- now I get it ------- ????? -------- |
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Posts: 89
| Jim I am Glad that you live in a perfect world where nothing fails, I also had one jump and twist and when it did the line got in its mouth and was cut. How do you know that every fish you release lives, you don't |
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Posts: 2324
Location: Chisholm, MN | How do you splice a flouro leader to your line? I would like to try this. |
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Posts: 1713
Location: Mt. Zion, IL | Kirby Budrow - 3/25/2013 6:22 PM
How do you splice a flouro leader to your line? I would like to try this.
Uni knot to uni knot works very well. |
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Posts: 501
Location: S.Wisconsin | what about using a 3" piece of wire in front of the flouro like Greg Thomas uses? I have used this system for 3 years with no issues. couple feet of flouro tied directly to my main line |
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| jimjimjim - 3/25/2013 5:38 PM
Lets see now ,,,, if a floro leader gets bit off and the lure gets lodged in the musky's mouth and the musky dies a slow death due to starvation ,,,, thats OK ???? ------- now I get it ------- ????? --------
That has only took place once on my boat, and it was 7 strand that broke. The angler found the fish a week later and got his bobbie bait back. BR |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Kirby Budrow - 3/25/2013 6:22 PM
How do you splice a flouro leader to your line? I would like to try this.
here's a really good "how-to" video ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2ecocBXTeI&feature=youtu.be |
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Posts: 2324
Location: Chisholm, MN | thanks! |
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Posts: 109
Location: Wisconsin River | I have had several fish boat side cut floro like butter on the hookset. Its not on my line anymore. Anything can fail, less likely with wire. |
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