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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Length measurement of fish is an accepted method, and bag limits rely on them. How to properly measure the length of a fish is clearly identified by most Dept. of Natural Resources. Thus, knowing how to properly measure the length of a fish has value.... as it could mean the difference between a ticket or not. Has anyone documented how to properly measure the girth of fish? Can it be done with any accuracy and repeatability? Enough to be used for establishing "records"? If not, is there any value to a girth measurement? With catch and release so popular today, are RECORDS established by weight of any value? What good is a State Record (by weight) if there are bigger fish getting caught and released? And... if weight is the metric of choice... doesn't that promote killing a fish and conflict with the poplularity of C&R? What are your thoughts?
Edited by jlong 1/2/2013 2:50 PM
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Posts: 8772
| jlong - 1/2/2013 2:46 PM
Length measurement of fish is an accepted method, and bag limits rely on them. How to properly measure the length of a fish is clearly identified by most Dept. of Natural Resources. Thus, knowing how to properly measure the length of a fish has value.... as it could mean the difference between a ticket or not. Has anyone documented how to properly measure the girth of fish? Can it be done with any accuracy and repeatability? Enough to used for establishing "records"? If not, is there any value to a girth measurement? With catch and release so popular today, are RECORDS established by weight of any value? What good is a State Record (by weight) if there are bigger fish getting caught and released? And... if weight is the metric of choice... doesn't that promote killing a fish and conflict with the poplularity of C&R? What are your thoughts?
Unless your tape starts at 2", I don't see a lot of margin for error. But I don't see a lot of value in girth measurements. A short stocky fish with a full belly vs a longer fish that's thick all the way through, full stomach vs empty, eggs vs no eggs... Too many variables for it to have any real meaning. Even weight will vary throughout the season. But a 57" fish will never be any shorter. |
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Posts: 2009
| Even if you standardized girth... does a 55" fish with a pot belly 28" girth out-weight a fish with a 27" girth that carries the mass more proportionately head to tail? Unfortunately I think weight is where it will always be. Look at the recent Barbosa fish 58 lbs and didn't even hit 55"
Edited by IAJustin 1/2/2013 3:05 PM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | how bout a uniform tank and a displacement/volume measurement then calculation on a standard density?? |
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Posts: 2009
| jonnysled - 1/2/2013 3:09 PM
how bout a uniform tank and a displacement/volume measurement then calculation on a standard density??
Or a digital camera that calculates weight based on quasiparticle physics? |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | volume/density is no more difficult than using a measuring stick ...
math |
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Location: Madison, WI | if you assume that muskies are being caught at reasonably consistent temperatures (30-80F), you can also assume that they will have reasonably consistent body densities. (like us, they're mostly water anyway.)
build a tube 70" tall, with a 35" circumference. fill it to 60" with water.
put the muskie in the tube headfirst.
measure the water level with the muskie inside (mL of water displaced).
release the muskie.
no mucking around with girths, no dead fish, just a simple number. it ain't "cheat proof" but it's less prone to the obvious measurement errors that girth tapes seem to produce so frequently.
EDIT: i see Sled got there the same time as me.
a new start-up muskie business perhaps, Sled? "the Muskie Toob"?
Edited by lambeau 1/2/2013 3:22 PM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | lambeau - 1/2/2013 3:20 PM
if you assume that muskies are being caught at reasonably consistent temperatures (30-80F), you can also assume that they will have reasonably consistent body densities. (like us, they're mostly water anyway.)
build a tube 70" tall, with a 35" circumference. fill it to 60" with water.
put the muskie in the tube headfirst.
measure the water level with the muskie inside (mL of water displaced).
release the muskie.
no mucking around with girths, no dead fish, just a simple number. it ain't "cheat proof" but it's less prone to the obvious measurement errors that girth tapes seem to produce so frequently.
EDIT: i see Sled got there the same time as me.
a new start-up muskie business perhaps, Sled? "the Muskie Toob"?
seems logical to me mike ... send me the call-in number and we can get the design phase started. |
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Posts: 2009
| so what do we get with volume? muskies of the same volume could have different weights -correct? |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | mass density is a pretty consistent number ... the amount of error there would be less than current measurement error in my opinion.
not like there are muskies that go to the gym and do squats all day and others that sit around watching fishing shows eating potato chips. |
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Posts: 2009
| You take the same fish full of eggs she weighs 66 pounds .... she has the same volume whether or not she just ate that last 2 pound whitefish doesn't she? Put the 2 pound whitefish in her belly now she is 68 pounds. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | put the 2 pound whitefish and you increase the volume and density doesn't change a % ...
arguing is fun tho |
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Posts: 2009
| are you assuming the fish has to expand to fit this small fish in its belly? same balloon of water vs air will have same volume different mass.. |
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Location: Madison, WI | You take the same fish full of eggs she weighs 66 pounds .... she has the same volume whether or not she just ate that last 2 pound whitefish doesn't she? Put the 2 pound whitefish in her belly now she is 68 pounds.
yes, obviously the best way to determine the weight of a fish is to WEIGH IT. the initial question was about using girth as an alternative to weighing fish. Archimedes' would suggest a better approach. (measure displaced water, multiply by standard density to determine weight.)
and the volume likely does change when fish add egg mass or eat a big meal - heck, you can usually see it with your naked eye. water displacement would find that more accurately than a girth tape, and all you'd need to do is cart a 70" x 35" Musky Toob around in your boat. easy peasy.
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Posts: 8772
| lambeau - 1/2/2013 4:07 PM
[...]all you'd need to do is cart a 70" x 35" Musky Toob around in your boat. easy peasy.
That part would be easy. But I can see a few challenges when trying to fill it with water and stuff a fish in there, and a few more trying to get the fish out of there without spilling any water. That's what I call good old redneck fun! |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Why not just weigh the fish? You can weigh it real quick on the water and still release it. A cetified scale would be much easier to store than a tube of water...c'mon who is going to do that.
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Posts: 2024
| Maybe you could carry the required DNR guys around in the tube so that it doesn't blow out of the boat... |
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Location: Madison, WI | ...
Edited by lambeau 1/2/2013 4:24 PM
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Location: Madison, WI | That part would be easy. But I can see a few challenges when trying to fill it with water and stuff a fish in there, and a few more trying to get the fish out of there without spilling any water. That's what I call good old redneck fun!
a) why would you need to get the muskie out without spilling any water?
2) the point is to sell the thing, why worry about ease of use or accuracy? i figure that with the word "Musky" in the name and a picture of a muskie on the side, it's a sure thing.
Why not just weigh the fish? You can weigh it real quick on the water and still release it. A cetified scale would be much easier to store than a tube of water...c'mon who is going to do that.
exactly. it's a joke...if you want a record, kill the fish and get it certified. otherwise quit worrying about records that will never be validated anyway.
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Posts: 1451
Location: Kronenwetter, WI | What would be the expected varience in air bladder volume? |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | What if you don't have enough water in the 'toob' and the musky bonks its head on the way in?
Perhaps there could be a stamp that people could buy that would allow for one head bonking per year? |
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | Here is what you do. Have your muskie toob on a scale, weigh the water, then put the fish in it and weigh it again and subtract the two weights.
Or simpler, just grab the dang fish weight yourself, release the fish. Weigh yourself again and subtract the two weights. You saved $$ not buying the frickin toob.
Why do you guys make it harder on yourselves?
Edited by muskie! nut 1/2/2013 5:00 PM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | go to the top and read big guy
the light bulb will turn on ... or not |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | lambeau - 1/2/2013 4:23 PM ...if you want a record, kill the fish and get it certified. otherwise quit worrying about records that will never be validated anyway. So... forget about records or kill the fish. Now we are getting somewhere. How do we end that? We are men and will forever want to claim that mine is bigger than yours.... If the dreaded volume based FORMULAS using length and girth measurements will not be accepted (for good reason), what are some legitimate alternatives? If we stay with weight.... what are some good methods to weigh fish in the boat? What needs to be done to get an "official" weight for record keeping purposes? There seems to be several fish each season that have RECORD potential. How do we verify these catches without killing the fish? No joke! |
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Location: The desert | I don't care if mine is bigger or smaller. I'm more about the action.
Wait, are we still talking about muskies? |
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| jonnysled - 1/2/2013 4:44 PM
what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
in order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings 43 times every second, right?
Am I right? |
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Posts: 8772
| Wow it's going to be a long winter.
Back to the original questions:
"are RECORDS established by weight of any value?" Only if said weight can be verified as accurate.
"What good is a State Record (by weight) if there are bigger fish getting caught and released?" The same could be asked about any record - it's only a record if it's been authenticated and recorded. That doesn't mean it's the best, fastest, biggest, etc.
"And... if weight is the metric of choice... doesn't that promote killing a fish and conflict with the poplularity of C&R?"
The short answer is yes. That is until someone comes up with a way to weigh, verify, witness, etc. fish that doesn't require clobbering them and throwing them in the freezer.
A valid set of questions, for sure.
And not to make fun of your post by any means, but... I'm pretty into muskie fishing. But I couldn't tell you what the state record muske is in my state, or who holds it. Nor could I do that for any other state except WI, and that's only because of the dumbf-ckery surrounding the record. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm going back in the basement ... |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | jonnysled - 1/2/2013 5:55 PM i'm going back in the basement ... Good... now maybe some good discussion will occur on this thread.  |
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