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MuskieFever |
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Posts: 572 Location: Maplewood, MN | I've come to the realization that I am not a very good deep water angler. What are your secrets? Tactics? Presentations? I do not own many dawgs because I have yet to move a fish on one. Maybe I just need to give them more time? I have been counting them down but no such luck. When I have moved fish in deeper water, its only come on cranks. When fishing that 15-25ft water column, do you only target the top 5ft or so? Or do you really get down and hit the floor of the lake? Any advice helps on lures, presentation, and tactics. | ||
| jasonvkop |
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Posts: 613 Location: Michigan | Even though you haven't had any follows on them yet, I would definitely use Dawgs/SuperDs/Hardheads. They are a perfect tool for that deep water fishing. I sometimes let the bait fall to the bottom, sometimes let it sink just a couple seconds, and sometimes start retrieving right away. Basically you have to let the fish tell you how active they are. I fish a really clear lake with weeds in the 18' range and a good rule of thumb is this: the sunnier it is, the deeper I let the bait sink. Ripping the bait out/through the deep weeds is a great way to trigger deep fish. When fishing open water I would look at the baitfish and try to get your bait just above them. | ||
| ulbian |
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Posts: 1168 | A response from Ciscokid coming in 3....2....1.... I love fishing this stuff, probably not as much as Ciscokid but then who does love it as much as he does? The biggest thing you need is confidence in the fact that there are fish "out there." You have to make up your mind that you are going to stick to it. So many guys have the best intentions to fish suspendos but they get discouraged after a short time and lose confidence in areas like that so they head into fish structure that is more comfortable. If you are one of those guys that will get antsy and give up on it soon after you try it, hey, go right ahead and leave me alone out over the depths. hehehehe. Guys will also fish too deep as they get into that mindset that if you are over 80 plus feet of water that the fish must be real deep in the water column and this is nonsense. Regardless of conditions I don't think I've fished much deeper than 10 to 12 feet. Largest fish I will probably see in my life was on a gin clear lake, over 90 feet of water, not a cloud in the sky and it was calm. Twitching a glide bait maybe two feet below the surface and this fish shows itself. Remember, it takes a muskie nothing to twitch it's tail and move from one end of the boat to the other. Now take a 20 foot boat and shove it bow first down into the water. If that fish is 20 feet down it will take nothing for it to come up closer to the surface to check out a bait. Baits? Don't limit yourself. You can burn bucktails in the top two feet over 50 plus feet of water and have fish come up and whack them. You can jig Bondy's 10 feet down over 50 plus feet and catch fish. What do you like to use? What are you confidence baits? Go ahead and use them. One thing that can help sustain your confidence is to fish deep structure in a way you would a shallow piece of structure. Imagine an open basin that gets down to 70 feet. In that basin you have a series of humps that come up to 60 feet. Fish around those humps or points or simply bounce from one to the next and "connect the dots" using the deep structure as your dots. I think it was in one of Tony Rizzo's books where he talked about how a muskie can be over 100 feet of water but still be able to detect a change in the bottom that rises up less than half a foot. So why wouldn't it notice a 10 feet high hump coming out of 70 feet of water? They might not be holding tight to it but that doesn't mean that they don't use it eventhough they might be 50 or 60 feet above it. | ||
| Bondy |
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Posts: 719 | Get used to spending an entire day just sitting behind the seat and graphing the deeper parts of the lake, from humps, to the different drops and such. Those big arches are either sturgeon or muskie! There are plenty of deep water musky that are often overlooked as guys park their boat over top of and cast shallower... | ||
| hambone |
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| Trolling big lip crankbaits. The biggest fish we have caught have came when trolling in 20' to 40' of water. I am always amazed at how many big girls hang out in deep water. Always put a deep diver in the prop wash! | |||
| Almost-B-Good |
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Posts: 433 Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | I'm mostly a troller in WI and Ontario, so my observations are based on that. I find water 30'-60' can be really good in the lakes we fish and deeper has fish too. What are the conditions? By that I mean, is there a thermocline or not? If it's spring or fall none exist and the fish can be anywhere. Look at the locator and if you can read a thermocline or see evidence of one with fish suspending at or above it, then it can become a handy place to infer the bottom depth you want lures to run. I always look at the water clarity. How far down can you see your lure? 8' would mean the light went down 8' and back to your eyes another 8' so the minimum a fish can see over its head is 16'. If the fish is laying at the thermocline midday, a lure 16' above it is visible with no problem, not to mention they can feel the lure a lot farther away than that. So always trying to scrape the thermocline with a lure itself can be a bad idea, limiting the number of fish that can see the lure. Yeah, they can feel a lure running underneath them but why limit the number of senses you are appealing too? Depending on the mood of the fish, they may respond to lures only within inches of them, or they may attack lures run twenty feet or more above them. Usually I figure they are somewhere in between that and I start targeting depths 5'-10' above them and work both ways from there. For me, usually up higher is better. Speed is usually as fast as I can run the lure without it blowing out or jumping out of the water. If I strike out in a good area, then I would slow down and try it again, but not before. For instance, I run bucktails at 4-5.5 mph. If my kicker could go faster I might. Believers I run about 3.5-4 mph in summer and slow down ever so slightly in fall. Other lures are just whatever speed they can handle. It's just what works for us. If you only cast you can still take the general idea and run with it. If you make a presentation depth mistake, I always say make it on the shallow side. It's awful easy to run lures too deep, and darn hard to run them too shallow. The one big advantage a cast lure has, especially a heavy plastic, is that you can let it sink/rip it up right through the zone a fish wants to be in, a great trigger. | ||
| Tim R |
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Posts: 174 Location: Ontario | Agree with most of the above.Fishing in big water means a lot of trolling and fishing points 15-40 ft of water. I discovered a lure here called the Grandma that trolls around 12ft.Its been awesome.Rips through the water with little resistance.Catches everything too. Most of my fish caught here in the past years have been trolling cuts and channels with deeper water surrounding. The fish are sitting on the humps hunting transition fish.Caugh my biggest muskie ever(51") in 50 ft of water last October on the Grandma. A buddy of mine caught a big one a few years back down rigging in 140 ft of water with his lure down at 40 ft...so go figure whats conentional wisdom | ||
| Will Schultz |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Is the question about fishing suspended fish or fishing deep water weeds or other cover? Two completely different approaches in my opinion. | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I agree with Will. Two different cases for sure. Also are we talking 15-25’ of water, or are we talking DEEP water? Although I guess 15-25’ could be considered deep on some waters I consider that mid-depth and approaching shallow at the 15’ end. Ulbian and a few others brought up some good points. In general, and in some cases re-emphasizing what others have said, don’t fish too deep in the water column when you are first starting out. Good rule of thumb would be to stay in the top 10’ of the water column which is where most cranks will keep you. Don’t count down your rubber baits more than say 5 seconds to stay here. In general early in the year you best stay high, say top 5’, and you progressively use deeper running lures as the year rolls on. By late Aug-early Sep. you would be running your deepest. Again in general as sometimes even in late Aug the fish will run very, very high. The baitfish in the lake you are targeting will also dictate your bait depth, as well as if that 15-25’ depth you mentioned is flat versus a deeper break. For instance a deeper break I would keep the bait higher, and if it was a flat I would have no issues and often preferred to run a bait near the bottom. Rubber is a no brainer for most when trying to catch fish in deep water/suspended, and thus a lot of guys getting into it use almost nothing but rubber. Although if you are on a lake that doesn’t have a strong rubber bite (yes there are some), then as you may have already found out cranks are a much better option. A HUGE thought to keep in mind is you need to make your bait get noticed in deep water. You are relying on that fish coming from a greater distance than when you are fishing structure. So with cranks make sure you give that bait a rip, rip or a pop, pop every so often. Make it kick sideways. The amount of follows you have will greatly decrease but your catches will greatly increase. I would say 80-90% of the fish we boat come right after the pop, pop of a bait. Fishing rubber give that thing a good pull/rip every so often, and also add in some just plain ‘ole drops (stop reeling). While the night fish and deep flat fish seem to prefer a steady retrieve those daytime fish in wide open spaces sure do prefer a change of pace/direction of the rubber. It is much easier to catch fish in the upper 15’ of the water column than it is deeper than that. Thus why I and others recommend fishing it when starting out. Sometimes though you have to get a bait deeper than that, and the rewards can be great. Concentrate on being shallower in the water column until you gain confidence, and then start moving deeper in the water column. If you really, really want to learn the deep water deal you have to give it time. 1-2 hours here and there is nothing. Spend the whole day doing it. A whole weekend. The pieces will start falling in place. Who knows 5 years from now you may find it your preferred method. | ||
| MuskieFever |
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Posts: 572 Location: Maplewood, MN | I really appreciate all of the advice. When I originally posted, I should have specified what I mean't by deep. I call it deep because I usually target 15ft and higher. I fish 2 lakes usually; one tops out at 35ft the other at 89ft. The shallower lake is 3ft clarity and the 89 is 12ft. When fishing suspended fish, do you fish around or right through the bait fish? | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | MuskieFever - 6/11/2012 5:08 PM When fishing suspended fish, do you fish around or right through the bait fish? Around, through, and awayd from. Don't get hung up on having to see baitfish on the graph for catching fish out suspended. At least half the fish we boat is while there isn't anything on the graph, and may not have marked anything in awhile. | ||
| ulbian |
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Posts: 1168 | CiscoKid - 6/12/2012 7:48 AM Around, through, and awayd from. Don't get hung up on having to see baitfish on the graph for catching fish out suspended. At least half the fish we boat is while there isn't anything on the graph, and may not have marked anything in awhile. ^This. It's just as important to study the structure on a lake when fishing out there as it is when you are picking apart structure up close. Muskies will roam from point to point or hump to hump without any presence of baitfish. They will relate to baitfish but it's not the only reason they are out there. You can waste a lot of time if the only thing you are looking for is the presence of food. You might not even catch a true suspended fish but instead catch one that is a roamer moving from one thing to another. Either way, there are quite a few fish that are out over deep (30+ fow) water for one reason or another. | ||
| Mike |
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| I have had a little luck in the metro catching deep water fish. Like others have said it takes time and you wont get many follows. I have always wanted to do it, and one day forgot the trooling motor battery and was rather windy. So decided what the heck just cast to the depths. We ended up catching the cleanest looking Tonka Muskie ever and had another one on. I am actually going to focus on it more this year as it is usually unpressured fish out there! | |||
| Landry |
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Posts: 1023 | Thanks for this topic. I found it very informative and I should try it this summer as I fish a Lake Trout Lake for 2 weeks each summer and find I get most of my biggest fish on steep shorelines. Should I just turn around and toss out the other way towards deep water or move out and bomb away. I am getting my fish on deeper walls near the 2 deepest basins - 80 and 90 feet deep - and I am casting into shore with the boat sitting in 20 - 35 feet of water. I have had a few real biggies show up suddenly at the boat - could have been deep followers or deeper fish I guess??? Landry | ||
| MuskieFever |
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Posts: 572 Location: Maplewood, MN | Awesome story on the tonka fish. I'm guessing one huge factor to fishing in the middle is making long casts to cover water? I am excited to try this new tactic. | ||
| FAT-SKI |
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Posts: 1360 Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Mike - 6/12/2012 4:20 PM I have had a little luck in the metro catching deep water fish. Like others have said it takes time and you wont get many follows. I have always wanted to do it, and one day forgot the trooling motor battery and was rather windy. So decided what the heck just cast to the depths. We ended up catching the cleanest looking Tonka Muskie ever and had another one on. I am actually going to focus on it more this year as it is usually unpressured fish out there! --- I will agree that the depths of Tonka are less pressured but I would not say they are un-pressured unless you are fishing at night in the middle of the lake. Tonka is one of the most pressured waters I have ever seen in my life. The lake has more boats on it including bass guys, crappie guys, walleye guys, pleasure boaters and a huge increasing number of musky guys... I spend 90% of my fishing time on Tonka (I still love the lake, great for fishing if you know where to go) But the lake is FAR from under pressured. In fact it is so pressured to the point to where I think the fish are patterning the fisherman instead of the other way around. We all fish the same times of day. after work, and on the weekends. Muskie - "well it's 5pm on a Friday... were probably about to start seeing those giant rubber things right about now" ...At least that's how I picture it in my head... That being said I am also going to start to target more fish in deep water... Not because I think I will do any better, but because I am always trying to increase my knowledge of different ways to catch em... to use all situations to my advantage... | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Landry it is as easy as moving out a cast if you are continually having fish show up late. If that stops after moving out a cast then you know it wasn’t a matter of the fish being out deeper, but that of the fish were just late comers. MuskieFever, while long cast definitely cover the most water you need to be careful for the obvious reason of trying to get hooks into a fish that hit after 2 cranks of the handle as it happens a lot suspended. Also some baits work great on shorter casts suspended, and those are ones that you can countdown like Joes and hardheads. Lots of fish eat them on the drop so why make a bomb cast and try to hook them way out when you can make shorter casts, control your depth better, and get better hook ups. Long casts are good, but really long casts can be BAD. | ||
| Landry |
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Posts: 1023 | CiscoKid - 6/13/2012 1:41 PM Landry it is as easy as moving out a cast if you are continually having fish show up late. If that stops after moving out a cast then you know it wasn’t a matter of the fish being out deeper, but that of the fish were just late comers. Good tip. Clever yet simple - I will try that. Thanks | ||
| MuskieFever |
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Posts: 572 Location: Maplewood, MN | Do you ever aimlessly pick a deeper area to fish even if you haven't marked baitfish and if it doesn't have a contrasting bottom? | ||
| ulbian |
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Posts: 1168 | MuskieFever - 6/14/2012 12:47 AM Do you ever aimlessly pick a deeper area to fish even if you haven't marked baitfish and if it doesn't have a contrasting bottom? Yep | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | ulbian - 6/14/2012 3:26 AM MuskieFever - 6/14/2012 12:47 AM Do you ever aimlessly pick a deeper area to fish even if you haven't marked baitfish and if it doesn't have a contrasting bottom? Yep Another yep, and what I do a lot personally. Fishing out in the abyss is a lot less complicated than what most writers make you think. It really is as simple as getting out there, and covering water. You will eventually find sections of basins that always hold fish from year to year on a lake, and other sections that may hold fish for a few weeks to never contact one there again for years to follow. While baitfish can be important it isn't the answer to it all. You could fish baitfish balls all stinkin' day out there, and not catch a fish. You could NOT mark a stitch of bait all day, and boat four. Keep in mind that just because you don't mark bait doesn't mean the bait isn't out from the boat. High riding baitfish do not like to hang near the boat for the most part. Suspended are also out in the deep for more than just eating. They live out there. Therefore they are not always going to be chasing food. I believe they also set up in locations they know baitfish will travel to before the baitfish get there, and wait to intercept them when they do come. Not a lot written about fishing suspended because there is only so much to say about it. Other than articles I have seen written by Paul Klein the rest of them are just, well, I won't say. Keep it simple, cover water, and use your head and you'll have success. If you want to read soemthing to give you an edge on fishing muskies then I suggest perhaps reading about what they feed on. Learn about ciscos, whitefish, perch, suckers/redhorse, etc... and their movements. | ||
| dtaijo174 |
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Posts: 1169 Location: New Hope MN | CiscoKid - 6/14/2012 6:34 AM Not a lot written about fishing suspended because there is only so much to say about it. Other than articles I have seen written by Paul Klein the rest of them are just, well, I won't say. Keep it simple, cover water, and use your head and you'll have success. If you want to read soemthing to give you an edge on fishing muskies then I suggest perhaps reading about what they feed on. Learn about ciscos, whitefish, perch, suckers/redhorse, etc... and their movements. I would totally read up on baitfish behavior. Where do i find that informatin?!? | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I should probably clarify my last post a bit. Here is why I don’t believe you should hang your hat on certain “cues” (small bottom changes, deep contour breaks, etc…) out in the abyss, as well as baitfish. Some lakes the entire deep water area of the lake, containing the basins as well as flats adjacent to, produce suspended and deep water fish. Sure you can say I am going to fish the basin edge (not sure how you determine it’s the edge though) and catch fish. You then equate that to that is the key and what you should do on all lakes, and also ignore the other water on the lake. Meanwhile you could have simply motored out onto the lake, drifted the 35’ flat 400 yards away from the basin, and caught fish. Perhaps larger fish. Every lake is different in a way, and in a way a lot of lakes are the same. Best way to success on a lake, or lakes, fishing suspended or deep structure is you have to learn it’s idiosyncrasies and it’s patterns. Over time you will know in June to fish a certain area of the lake, but in Aug you better be in another and can ignore the June spot, but In Sept that June area can be going again. Or you will come to learn that no matter how hard you try to find a pattern like the previous mentioned ones on a lake you just can’t, and you just need to cover water indiscriminately to boat fish. Keep an open mind, and have confidence that the fish are out there. | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | dtaijo174 - 6/14/2012 7:09 AM CiscoKid - 6/14/2012 6:34 AM Not a lot written about fishing suspended because there is only so much to say about it. Other than articles I have seen written by Paul Klein the rest of them are just, well, I won't say. Keep it simple, cover water, and use your head and you'll have success. If you want to read soemthing to give you an edge on fishing muskies then I suggest perhaps reading about what they feed on. Learn about ciscos, whitefish, perch, suckers/redhorse, etc... and their movements. I would totally read up on baitfish behavior. Where do i find that informatin?!? In-Fisherman was always a good magazine as I know for a while they use to have a column about species that aren’t commonly targeted. Things like carp, Tulibee/Cisco, whitefish, Scaupin, etc… You can also just search the web by a species you want to know about and find oodles of info. Also visit other websites like this, but for other species. Really any multi-species magazine will give you tidbits of info…if you keep an open mind. You may be surprised what you may learn even while reading about catfish, and guys that fish for them suspended off the bottom. Also dare I say take it one step further, and fish for those “other” species. Nothing like firsthand experience on the location and behavior of the “baitfish” in the lake you musky fish. I know I don’t do it enough, but a lot of what I have learned about other species is from the years of catching them before I got into musky fishing heavily. | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | ulbian - 6/11/2012 2:19 AM A response from Ciscokid coming in 3....2....1.... maybe even 6 or 7 | ||
| curleytail |
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Posts: 2687 Location: Hayward, WI | jonnysled - 6/14/2012 7:38 AM ulbian - 6/11/2012 2:19 AM A response from Ciscokid coming in 3....2....1.... maybe even 6 or 7 I'll take 10 or 12 if Travis wants to keep writing. The last few seasons I've been fishing fishing deeper than i used to and have had success doing it, especially once thermoclines develop. Still, it's not something with a lot of writing done on the topic, so Iread everything I can about the subject - especially when it comes from deep water specialists like Travis. Tucker Edited by curleytail 6/14/2012 1:16 PM | ||
| ulbian |
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Posts: 1168 | I sort of chuckle a bit at the "find pods of baitfish" obsession. Why look for pods of baitfish when you can learn about them and predict where they will be? Seems to be a more efficient use of time. "But the wind will blow the food to one side of the lake." Interesting thought there...then how in the sam hill do suckers run up stream against current? In rivers why aren't every perch, bluegill, crappie, etc. washed down with the current? Fishing below dams would be the biggest waste of time imaginable. These food sources for muskies can swim against river current, wind current, return current, etc. They won't necessarily all be blown into a shoreline but how often is it the case where the wind picks up from one direction and the monkey see, monkey do mentality takes over and you see boats heading to windblown rocks, points, and humps? It takes time for that type of a pattern to set up...but nope. A gnat farts on the west end of a lake causing a slight breeze and boom, off to the races some guys will go. Fish, whether they are muskies or something a muskie will snack on don't always aimlessly follow their quarry around. There are reasons why you have schools of crappies, perch, ciscoes, etc. suspending over the deep basins that have nothing to do with finding food. Sometimes they are out there in search of a meal and other times they are not. Why is that? I have what seem to be some pretty solid theories of this on my own but in order to stimulate more thought in this thread I won't divulge those thoughts.....so I ask...why are they out there if they are not looking for food? Second question if you can start to put the puzzle together on that first question, can you predict those locations based on your theory above? BST or otherwise? Finally...if you have confidence in predicting those locations, how much time will it save going directly to them than it would be simply driving around watching electronics for pods of bait fish? Spending time cruising around looking for baitfish to me is a waste of time and gets to be too hard. The smarter thing to do in my opinion is to narrow that search down by predicting where they will be. There are no hard and fast rules in muskie fishing but one that I adhere to is to "Fish smarter, not harder" and the ROI has improved dramatically. | ||
| HomeTime |
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Posts: 247 Location: Uxbridge Ontario | CiscoKid - 6/13/2012 2:41 AM Landry it is as easy as moving out a cast if you are continually having fish show up late. If that stops after moving out a cast then you know it wasn’t a matter of the fish being out deeper, but that of the fish were just late comers. Relating this offshoot of the topic to a slump I went through last season, I found myself fixated on structure trying to break my badluck. I ended up fishing on a very windy day and also ran into foot pedal issues so I was constantly pushd into cover (weedlines, over point and into shore). So I stared fishing "inside out" alot more than usual (sitting on the structure and casting out away from it).... And I was rewarded with a 6 fish day. My numbers have drastically increased now that I am back to fishing tactfully and not fixated. Think about it, suspending fish, fishing following bait fish movement and even water current all relate to stucture and not only in one dimension; so dont fish one dimentionally. If you are not contacting fish toward structure, move in and throw out, or move in and throw along that break... or out even more and along the break. You hear a lot about fishing angles and presentation. It basically means that its not always enough to put a bait infront of fish, but means put it at them in a position that they are expecting their food to come from. My question for CiscoKid is, with your experience fishing "Depths", how important is strucure (regarless of its subtlety)? Being relatively new to the deepwater game, what are the indications that a spot may produce? How close or far from "prodominant" structure like shore, a reef or breakline, could you be fishing (regardless of the water depth)? I am not sure how far out suspended fish can travel to be completely honest. | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | HomeTime - 6/17/2012 9:49 PM My question for CiscoKid is, with your experience fishing "Depths", how important is strucure (regarless of its subtlety)? Being relatively new to the deepwater game, what are the indications that a spot may produce? How close or far from "prodominant" structure like shore, a reef or breakline, could you be fishing (regardless of the water depth)? I am not sure how far out suspended fish can travel to be completely honest. As far as supended fishing goes, structure don't mean anything. Lots going on out in the basin of the lake, and you could be miles away from any kind of structure and still catch fish although I don't recommend trying it for the caster. Indications a fish will be there? You mark it on your graph, have one follow, or catch it. Sorry there really are no indications other than that. Edited by CiscoKid 6/18/2012 6:33 AM | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | deep water ... hmmm take a map ... use a color-code. ear-mark the deepest holes and outline them in one color. now, mark in another color all immediately adjacent structure - humps one color (even the subtle ones that are deep but come out of deeper) - points one color - weed edges another color - cribs ... mark the ones that you think "relate" to the deep water - especially know where there is sand-grass (100% of your effort should be in and around sand-grass if it is present). now, start to tie them together with another color and start to see the pathways that tie them together. even a train of 50' that come out of 70' or more. nothing is too deep, even a boulder that you can find between a point and a weedline. learn the sink-rates of all of your baits and understand how to bomb long-casts with cranks and reel em down deep first then rip-twitch and pause and be willing to fish them aggressively (i mean really aggressive) with pauses. lay an icon when you contact fish and go back and try to find any subtlety. fish even deep water fish like structure ... if it's uncanny that you see fish in a certain basin spot, it's not uncanny ... there is a reason. figure out that reason and you have a spot on the spot. we fish typically a combo of bulldawg and raider (when weeds are present) or ddd (when over the deep structure without weeds). this technique has caught a fish or three over the years. edit: i subscribe to the notion that 80% of the fish are in 20% of the water and eat 10% of the time and that you can consistently contact fish (which i've learned over the years from a combination of experience and good relationships with others who think about this stuff and do well) by using a systematic approach that includes developing a detailed knowledge of the water and how you approach it. chukin' baits in the abyss hoping something will happen comes just before vertical jigging (at least until jon bondy screwed up my viewpoint of this) and loading the boat onto the trailer. Edited by jonnysled 6/18/2012 11:40 AM | ||
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