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Location: Green Bay, WI | As a reminder to anyone interested in the stocking efforts in Green Bay, we are having a speaker from the WiDNR's Besadny Anadromous Fish Facility (hatchery) come speak with our MI chapter tonight. The meeting starts at 7pm and is being held at the Green Bay Yachting Club, near the mouth of the Fox River.
The meeting is open to the public.
TB |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Tom, what did you learn? |
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Posts: 2068
Location: Appleton,WI | They only get about 100,000 - 125,000 eggs. The one pond that they are using is 0.6 acres, and can support the rearing of about 5000-6000 fingerlings. They stock those into the bay in late September. The fry that they have are hatched and then swim up sometime around mid- to late-May. Soon afterwards, they basically dump all the excess onto the lawn (above the 15000 or so they will stock into the one pond). They start feeding sucker fry a week or two after the fry hatch, but once they get stocked into the rearing pond, they have to start using larger forage. So they use different species of forage at various times throughout the Summer months.
There are three things that can happen here this year:
1) Stock 12,000 - 15,000 fry into the one pond, and dump the rest (like they've done in 2010 & 2011)
2) Stock 12,000 - 15,000 fry into the pond, and then try to raise the rest in their tanks. If they remain VHSv negative for 28 days, try to get the Fish Health guy to OK them to be shipped to Wild Rose...and then hope that the powers that be (in Madison) approve this. The risk is that they might inadvertently spread VHSv to Wild Rose, which would be a potential nightmare.
3) Stock 12,000 - 15,000 into the pond, raise the others as long as possible in the tanks they have and then try to stock them back into the bay. They would NOT be able to be reared to the 10-12" size reached by the ones in the pond. There's just no way they have that kind of room. The goal would simply be to get the fish past the 28-day period needed for the VHSv test to return. Stocking those into the bay system would not be as successful as stocking the 10-12" fingerlings, however even if only 0.1% make survive...it could mean several thousand extra fish in the system. Throwing them onto the lawn certainly isn't going to result in ANY extra fish in the bay.
So I need to work the phones today. Mike (the hatchery manager) told us that he doesn't have approval to ship fry to Wild Rose, and doesn't know if he'll get that. He also doesn't have permission to stock excess fry into the bay--so we're going to have to politic for that. But of the 100,000 or so eggs they get, there are many thousands that do not survive the iodophor VHSv disinfectant process. They are treated twice, and this destroys some eggs. But to date, none of the fish they've test in either 2010 or 2012 have tested VHSv positive. So that's good news in that sense.
The deal with the other pond is this. They need about $10,000 to put a one foot layer of Bentonite clay into the pond. This will seal hopefully seal it, and allow them to use that pond to rear more fry to fingerling stage. But that won't happen this year, so it's not going to help us now. They could put a plastic liner in the pond as well--but it's about $60,000 for the 0.4 acres. That isn't likely to happen, but the clay is probably a good idea by the sound of it. The kicker is that he hasn't even been given permission yet to accept donations to make that happen. He just the estimates yesterday, so it will all have to be approved by Madison.
So today, the phone calls begin. I am calling Tim Simonson, and then Mike Staggs. I am not sure if I'll reach them however, given that the Cnservation Congree convention is tomorrow. But I'll be there, so I can probably talk to Mike Staggs then if I see him.
Lots going on right now, and it'll take a week or so to straighten out. Then I'll be back in touch.
This is a email tom sent me about the meeting.
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Sorry all...was picking up a boat this morning. Thanks for posting the email Eric.
I did talk to Tim Simonson, and he was most helpful. I need to get back with Mike Baumgartner from the Besadny facility, and see how we take the next step. He is a VERY nice fellow, and is doing great work over there in Kewaunee. We absolutely want to help him in any way he deems necessary. His talk last night was entitled "Standing in the Gap," and it's a perfect title. Without their work there in Kewaunee, we would have NO STOCKING whatsoever into the bay. There are plans to obtain fingerlings from Michigan (to improve genetic diversity), but that has not yet happened per my understanding. So the 8000 or so fingerlings raised by the Kewaunee facility in the past two years have been all the fish stocked into the bay. The Armstrong/Archibald/Elkhart Lake fish won't be sexually mature for 4-6 years yet, so the only sure thing we have right now, it seems, is the bay fish themselves. So thankfully, Mike and crew in Kewaunee are stepping up for the fishery.
TB
EDIT: Forgot to say that Tim Simonson thought that it would be a relatively simple matter to accept donations for the clay lining in the pond. Such a sizable donation would have to be approved by the Natural Resources Board, but this sounds like more of a formality...but it would take a few weeks. But that's no big deal though, given that the work could be done at any point this Summer, when the County crews have time.
Edited by tcbetka 5/10/2012 1:52 PM
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Posts: 272
| Curious WHY the "excess" fry get turned into grass fertilizer, vs putting them back into the original body of water they came from. Pretty sure they stand a better chance in the bay than in the lawn.
Secondly, how does 12k-15k fry turn into 8000 and that turns into the ~3000 that we seem to get stocked into the Bay, et al, each year? Natural deaths? Cannibalism? Seeing alot of numbers thrown around there that seem to dwindle severely as the stocking date approaches. I thought I heard one year they were down in the upper teens (1700-1900ish) because they ran out of minnows to feed them at the hatchery and they ate each other. Is this what's going on here?
I understand that very few eggs can ever expect to be a 50"er some day due to a variety of factors, but this seems like pretty slim odds, for even these eggs that do live to be fry, to ever see the bright light at the end of the tube on the hatchery truck.
Edited by muskie-addict 5/10/2012 10:38 PM
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| Those numbers may sound like they're losing a lot of fish but 5000-6000 or even 3000 out of the 100000-125000 eggs the collect is doing great that 2.5-3% making it to the lake, i saw Indiana's numbers a couple weeks ago and they expect 24000 fingerlings from 1.9 million eggs are 1.2% which is closer to the numbers most states get, so it seems to me Wisconsin is doing great with what they have |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | MA,
Good questions in your post. As I am sure there are other folks who share your concerns and have other questions, I will elaborate on the information as I understand it.
In regards to the grass fertilizer issue, other than to say that stocking with fry is going to be nowhere near as successful as stocking with fingerlings, I don't believe that those fish are part of the stocking plan for muskellunge for the year. As I understand it (and I may not have all the facts exactly correct here as I have only just started researching it), there is a stocking plan for ALL species being stocked in Wisconsin each year. That plan calls for 'X' many fish getting stocked into 'Y' number of lakes. Stocking all those fry back into the bay apparently is not accounted for by that plan--at least for muskellunge. Simply put, I am not at all sure that they have a good idea as to what percentage of those stocked fry will survive to adulthood--therefore how do you account for the benefit they will provide to the fishery? Common sense would tell you that some will survive, but when you have to account for such fish "on paper," it becomes more complicated than that. When I spoke with Tim about this yesterday, he said that although it was not his decision to make (in the sense of taking those fry back to the bay), he did not think it would be a particular problem. But we need to speak with the correct people about doing this though, as there will be extra funding needed to make this happen (among other things). So we have already started that process, and will continue to work with the DNR fisheries professionals to see if that is something that can happen this year. Our MI chapter has already assured the Besadny facility manager that there will be funding and man-power available should it be needed, and I am quite certain that the other clubs in the area will be willing to provide assistance as well. We just need to do it in the proper way, when requested by the WiDNR staff.
As you pointed out, the numbers decrease with each stage in the process. As we were advised, there are quite a number of eggs each year that are not viable. To start, the published literature reports various hatch success rates with iodophor egg disinfectant treatments. These vary with both the time after fertilization and the length of time the eggs are exposed to the disinfectant solution. Here is a nice reference to review in that regards:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2009/3107/pdf/fs20093107.pdf
As to the loss of live fish, you are correct in that some simply die. Some are eaten by the others, and some are also preyed upon by King Fisher and Herons in the pond. The staff of course chase these birds away, but it's impractical to have someone standing by to do this 24/7 for the four months the fry are growing into fingerlings...so fish die. The numbers we were shown indicate that about 12-14K fry get stocking into the pond in late May or early June, resulting in about 3-5K fingerlings (10-12") being seined out for stocking in late September.
In speaking with Tim yesterday, it is very apparent that the DNR fisheries folks are well on top of the musky stocking issue for the bay system; and that includes the Winnebago system. We have expressed our willingness to help them in any way possible, and they have acknowledged this. The Titletown MI chapter has offered donations of both time and money to assist the Kewaunee hatchery staff, and I've been advised by other clubs in the area that they are interested as well. I don't want to speak for them, but I can assure everyone that there is wide-spread support for this effort. I've passed on the contact information for the hatchery manager to all that have asked, and of course anyone can call Tim Simonson whenever they want to discuss it directly. He's very approachable on all-things musky in the state of Wisconsin. Nothing is falling through the cracks here, as far as I can tell. I am very hopeful that we will indeed be allowed to stock any disease-free fry back into the bay system this year, but there will have to be additional VHSv testing to insure that this is the case. But the wheels seem to be in motion in that respect, so the local musky chapters will simply continue to stand by to render support for this effort as needed.
TB |
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Posts: 272
| I still say that it is a bass ackwards waste to dump live fish into the lawn. Where's the extra cost? A tank of diesel?
My Silverado is really good at hauling aerated 5-gallon buckets, if that's our last resort.
-Eric
Edited by muskie-addict 5/11/2012 7:13 AM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | muskie-addict - 5/11/2012 7:07 AM
I still say that it is a bass ackwards waste to dump live fish into the lawn. Where's the extra cost? A tank of diesel?
My Silverado is really good at hauling aerated 5-gallon buckets, if that's our last resort.
-Eric
Valid points, and all discussed at length during the meeting. I am providing you with the explanation I was given, to the best of my ability...and would encourage any interested individuals to contact the appropriate fisheries folks for further information.
TB |
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| I know, Tom. I don't mean to shoot the messenger so I hope its not coming across that way, and I applaud you for your attention and efforts to our local fishery. Your level of knowledge and understanding, and pure gumption absolutely humbles me.
The situation is just frustrating to me.
-Eric |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | addict - 5/11/2012 9:35 AM
I know, Tom. I don't mean to shoot the messenger so I hope its not coming across that way, and I applaud you for your attention and efforts to our local fishery. Your level of knowledge and understanding, and pure gumption absolutely humbles me.
The situation is just frustrating to me.
-Eric
Understood. And I thank you for the compliments,
TB |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Someone let me know if and when they dump those things, I'll be there with a whole bunch of styrofoam coolers! The Great Lake I fish sure could use some. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | LOL. I don't think that is going to be an issue this year...
TB |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Stocking fry doesn't work. They have done it in the past and you end up with close to zero adult fish. 15-20% of the fingerlings survive until two years old.
Imigine how much money would be saved if stocking fry actually resulted in adult fish. It simply is a waste of time.
There is a reason they have to spend the money to rear them in the ponds. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Well no matter what, they just are not going to be able to rear all the fry--they just don't have the room. I am in the process of gathering literature on the published success rates of stocking various sizes of fish, but I have read that it can be variably successful, stocking fry. You are right though Troy, in that it is not nearly as successful as stocking larger fish. But if all it takes is a few hundred bucks for fuel and staff time, and they going to be fertilizer anyway...what's the harm in trying? Seems like common sense anyway. Any success whatsoever is better than the 0.0% that will survive on the lawn.
I will post some literature as I find it.
TB
EDIT: I neglected to state the obvious in the above post: Mother nature seems to be able to find a way for musky fry to survive to adulthood. We wouldn't be fishing for muskies at all if she hadn't, as she's been driving the bus LONG before the first 'ski was stocked by man. So I say give it a shot because it might just crazy enough to work.
Edited by tcbetka 5/11/2012 12:31 PM
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Posts: 280
Location: Pewaukee WI | Thanks for the info. Does anyone have a spreadsheet or list of the actual numbers of fingerlings stocked in GB per year over the last 20 years. It would be nice to have some kind of perspective as to what to expect for the future of the system. What years did they stop planiting fish due to VHS? |
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Posts: 280
Location: Pewaukee WI | Any eggs laid in the Fox will get smothered by carp or eaten by gobies. There are natural tigers caught in GB so there must successful spawning happening somewhere. Has any research been done to where natural reproductions is occurring, and if so, why not plant the fry in those locations.
Edited by Musky_Slayer 5/13/2012 2:06 PM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I have all of that info. It was published in Kevin Kapuscinksi's paper in 2006, but I can put it in a spreadsheet this evening, and publish that here. We are out of town for Mother's Day, but I will do it tonight and get it online.
TB |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | For some reason the system will not let me edit my last post, so I will post the stocking numbers in this new post. I believe these to be accurate, with a couple exceptions.
1) I don't know how many fish were stocked in 2006. I know there were about as many stocked that year as in 2005, but I need to get the exact value. I'll try to do that ASAP, and then update the spread sheet.
2) In 2007, no eggs were taken due to the concern for VHSv. However there were some yearling fish stocked from the 2006 year class. I'll have to get that exact number as well.
3) Finally, I do not have the exact numbers for 2010 and 2011. The numbers I've listed for those years are within 50 fish or so, but I don't have the exact count. I'll see if I can get that this week, and update the list.
Otherwise the data are as very accurate, as far as I know. I got everything from 1989 through 2005, from Kevin Kapuscinski (et al.) paper...so I know those are correct. So other than the exceptions I've listed above, you now know what I know.
TB
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Posts: 272
| What this adds up to is that there are some very bleak years ahead and why its so important that Kewaunee is used to its fullest extent and that Wild Rose gets up and running.
Also bears mentioning that it would have been nice to have had a more protective size limit in place. A higher limit isn't going to protect against delayed mortality, but it would have allowed more fish to have remained in the system longer thus providing more angler opportunities. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | All points that we (I) argued vehemently back in 2007 and 2008. Actually, I argued for a moratorium on harvest. But that wasn't well-received. So here we are...not to say that a moratorium would have "fixed" this. It wouldn't have by itself. In fact I doubt that there has been much harvest at all over the past few years. We don't have a creel survey out there for the full season, but the recently-published Green Bay Great Lakes Spotted Musky Management Plan 2012 suggests that angling effort actually declined from 2007 through 2009, but has been a bit of a resurgence since then. However despite this, the catch per unit effort (CPUE) has actually gone down. It had peaked in 2006, but has been declining since; although the plan notes that the creel survey efforts generally stop at the end of October. So the results aren't complete in that sense. However in 2010 the survey reported 541 fish caught with zero harvested.
As for bleak years, I would agree that there may certainly be some holes in the age structure out there. There really isn't anything we can do about that at this point, as that horse is out of the barn--nothing will bring back the fish that weren't stock in 2007-2009. So you're correct that the efforts of the staff at Kewaunee are VERY important, and therefore we need to support them in any way possible. That is in the works. But the Wild Rose hatchery is up and running in the sense, and I found out late last week that the DNR is planning to stock fingerlings from Michigan to Wild Rose this year. This is in addition to whatever Kewaunee is doing. I don't know how many fingerlings they will be getting as it's not scheduled to happen for another month or so yet (once the fish get a bit larger). But we'll find out that number once the fish arrive, if everything goes as planned. So as I mentioned above, the WiDNR is taking steps to get more fish back into the bay system.
None of this changes the fact that we still need to do everything we can to expand the capabilities at Kewaunee though, as the fish from Michigan are a LONG way from being stocked into Green Bay...
EDIT: Here's a link to the musky management plan I mentioned above:
http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/musky/SpottedMuskyManagementPlan-2012.pdf
TB
Edited by tcbetka 5/14/2012 6:36 AM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Musky_Slayer - 5/13/2012 1:57 PM
Any eggs laid in the Fox will get smothered by carp or eaten by gobies. There are natural tigers caught in GB so there must successful spawning happening somewhere. Has any research been done to where natural reproductions is occurring, and if so, why not plant the fry in those locations.
I missed this question yesterday...
To my knowledge, they do not know where natural reproduction is occurring. In fact, they've only documented a few young-of-the-year fish in their fall electrofishing surveys...less than five total, as I understand it. So there doesn't appear to be much success at all in that sense. And those few fish found have been farther north in the bay--not near the Fox River. I know there was a graduate student project to find out where spawning occurred in the southern bay and the Fox River, but I have never been provided with the results of that study. I am not sure they are available yet.
I'll send an email to our local Biologist (Steve Hogler) today, asking for this information. Then I'll update this thread as it becomes available.
EDIT: I received the updated information from Steve already on the number of fish stocked, and am attaching the updated copy to this post. I cannot remove the first version from the post above, so maybe Steve or one of the mods will remove that one for me so people won't mistakenly look at that one instead of this most accurate version.
Also, Steve has not yet seen the results of the graduate student study on the spawning location work. So I have nothing to share in that sense, but will do so when it's made available to me.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 5/14/2012 7:45 AM
(FishStocked_updated.jpg)
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Posts: 280
Location: Pewaukee WI | Thanks for the info. Why were so many more fish able to be planted from 2003-2006 vs other years? If funding was the reason is there any way that private donations and fund raising would allow the DNR to plant more in future years. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | They had lots of eggs from Fox River fish and reared them in the Wild Rose hatchery. Then came VHSv, and things aren't going to be the same for a while. Wisconsin accepts and uses the long-established Iodophor disinfectant process for Salmonid eggs, so those can be reared in the main hatchery there. However to date the process is still not fully approved for use with muskellunge eggs from a VHSv-positive system (like Green Bay), so those cannot be reared at the Wild Rose hatchery--hence the use of Kewaunee facility.
The DNR is planning to rear some fish from Michigan at Wild Rose, but I'm told that those fish will then get stocked into the three inland brood stock lakes. Those fish will then require 6-8 years to reach sexual maturity, at which time they can serve as a source of eggs for rearing fish to get stocked into the bay and Winnebago systems. And of course the fish stocked into those three lakes 2-3 years back will reach sexual maturity sooner, so we'll have those eggs in 4-5 years. But in the meantime, at least until the Iodophore disinfectant process is more accepted for muskellunge, we'll be using the Kewaunee facility as discussed above.
TB |
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Posts: 2024
| Tom,
You could try contacting Dr. Jim Diana over at the University of Michigan. He has a grad student (Kyle Battige) working on determining spawning locations in Green Bay. Evidently he has found 25 sites and is building a spatial model that will predict other likely locations. http://sitemaker.umich.edu/diana.lab/current_students |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I've heard about some of those results, but not the final conclusions. I'll try to get in touch with him this week Sean. Maybe he can put me in touch with Kyle as well.
Thanks.
TB |
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Posts: 280
Location: Pewaukee WI | http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/lakemich/Stocking_Summary_2011.pdf Thanks for the info. Here is another interesting PDF on Salmon stocking. |
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| esox50 - 5/20/2012 7:21 AM
Tom,
You could try contacting Dr. Jim Diana over at the University of Michigan. He has a grad student (Kyle Battige ) working on determining spawning locations in Green Bay. Evidently he has found 25 sites and is building a spatial model that will predict other likely locations. http://sitemaker.umich.edu/diana.lab/current_students
Very interesting Sean. I would hope that the WDNR will start stocking in these locations, instead of just dumping all of the fish in the Fox area. Everybody seems to agree that we are not getting natural recruitment in the Fox. It would be nice if our governor would resind the law he passed that allows Georgia Pacific to dump twice as much phosphorus in the river as anybody else.
Troy |
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Location: north central wisconsin | Bytor unplugged - 5/22/2012 10:25 AM
It would be nice if our governor would resind the law he passed that allows Georgia Pacific to dump twice as much phosphorus in the river as anybody else.
Troy
(edit: Troy, this isn't directed towards you personally)
As anybody else? Joke. The phos that GP and much of the paper industry emits is often less than the background phos already in the river. While shorefront property owners, some smaller unregulated farmers, golf courses/country clubs are pumping straight ortho phos directly into the river, unchecked, industry that is already emitting far below their current permit limits, are in the end to blame, when they are basically rerouting the already phos rich river water as non contact cooling/process water through their treatment plant. Get your facts straight, everyone, before this gets out of hand, and we push what is left of the paper industry in the US, to Asia, where there are no limits at all. But thats okay, because it's not in your backyard right?... Phos emissions of .15ppm are nearly unobtainable as that is often higher than the background levels in many waters, natural levels at that. Limit industry too far, and their ability to treat BOD/COD and TSS in the WWTP's will degrade. Which do you prefer?
Edited by Reef Hawg 5/24/2012 9:28 AM
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Jason, Right on,...... Glad someone that works for a living in preventing unnecessary spills and keeping our waters and air clean spoke up.
Jerome |
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