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| I've been making my own steel leaders (80lb) for awhile now but am having some problems with getting the crimps to hold perfectly. Ill admit I have been using a cheap pair of crimping pliers but do you all think that when I buy a better pair it will eliminate this problem? Also I was looking into making some flourocarbon leaders, do you guys crimp those as well or can you just tie those? Thanks for any input |
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Posts: 431
| Two words "Stealth Tackle" |
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Posts: 944
| Losing a fish of a lifetime or snapping a bait off in a fish is not worth the couple bucks you save buying cheap leaders or making your own if you can't do it correctly. IMO 80# is way too small for musky
Buy Stealth Leaders they are the best made.
Jeff Hanson
madisonmuskyguide.com |
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| you think 80lb STEEL is too light? gimme a break... pun intended
to the OP, are you sure you're crimping properly? |
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Posts: 47
Location: Québec, Canada | no need to sleeve, you just do like when you do the loop for a Bucktail |
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Posts: 432
Location: Eagan, MN | Gotta agree there, been making my own for 20 years with 80'ish pound single strand (usually 88lb) never had a single failure. I replace the wire as soon as it's kinked, recycle the swivel (and the snap too if it still looks good) and I'm good to go.
And as was already stated, you don't crimp single strand. I have a couple of old du-bro leader tools that make it easy. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Other than the fact that steel isn't as subject to nicks and premature breakage, what's the difference between 80-pound STEEL leaders and 80-pound fluoro leaders? I could argue that the fluoro leader isn't as vulnerable to kinking and then breakage, by the way. Breaking strength is breaking strength.
What weighs more: A pound of lead, or a pound of feathers?
If an 80-pound steel leader is strong enough, then so is an 80-pound fluoro leader. I happen to think both are too light to be honest, and prefer at least 135-pound. But then again, I've never thought much of solid wire leaders either for that matter. They kink too easily, and there you have a nice stress riser. I use stranded, and re-crimp my own leaders at the first sign of any kinking...
TB
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Guest - 4/30/2012 3:28 PM
I've been making my own steel leaders (80lb) for awhile now but am having some problems with getting the crimps to hold perfectly. Ill admit I have been using a cheap pair of crimping pliers but do you all think that when I buy a better pair it will eliminate this problem? Also I was looking into making some flourocarbon leaders, do you guys crimp those as well or can you just tie those? Thanks for any input
I've never crimped a solid steel leader, so take this with a grain of salt. But I have crimped hundreds of stranded wire (cable) and fluorocarbon leaders. I haven't had a failure yet that I know of (knock on wood!), and we caught fish in the 45+ pound class.
I've found that the secret to a good crimp is using a double-barreled sleeve and a quality pair of crimping pliers. You don't want the pliers to crimp the edge of the sleeve, as that will dig into the leader material and create a stress riser. It's the exact same technique used for crimping control cables on aircraft, and there are hundreds of thousands (if not more) of those things flying around with crimped steel cables. As long as you do it correctly, you're golden.
If you search in the forum archives here, there are a couple great threads on crimping leaders. I've also seen a couple nice YouTube videos on the subject as well.
TB |
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| unless someone can prove to me that a muskie can produce 80 lbs of breaking strength via the force of a strong run or massive head shake, i'm going to go out on a limb and say what we think of as acceptable is probably overkill. leaders are used to keep fish from biting through them not breaking them (unless we're talking about saltwater fish, which we're not). steel and fluoro shouldn't be compared because of the materials used to make them. one is made of metal, the other a fluoropolymer (basically a fancy plastic).
now, if jeff said 80lb FLUORO then i might agree, but there are certain situations that might require (or nearly require) the use of a light fluoro leader of 80lbs or less. small glide baits (4" phantoms, baby squirkos) comes to mind. how about jigs and reapers? |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | You're probably right in that 80 pounds, in perfect condition, is more than adequate. Problem is that you don't always know that the leader is not in perfect condition, until it goes SNAP. Then you should have used stronger leader material.
Nothing wrong with using 80 pound leader material, if you're into that. I bought 2000 yards of stranded 135-pound nylon-coated cable for about $75 on e-bay. It's Berkley 7-strand, and is fantastic. So that's what I have been using.
TB |
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Posts: 717
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | I used to make 100lb flouro for casting. I landed many many fish on them. But all it takes is 1 fish that inhales a lure. That's what happened in the pic. Luckily, we got the fish in, but needless to say, I don't use 100lb anymore except for trolling. 100lb steel is probably strong enough, but for flouro, all it takes is the fish's teeth to just nick it a couple times.
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| Ok to specifiy, I've been crimping stranded wire leaders not solid steel ones. I've never had one fail on a fish but its just taken me alot adjusting to get them to hold correctly before I hit the water. I may not be as experienced as some of you at this but I tend to agree that 80lb flouro is too light, not because of the breaking strenght but because of its durability. Just out of curiousity have any of you guys who think 80lb wire leaders are too small, had a fish break your leader not at the crimp? |
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Posts: 218
| If you have a proper crimping tool and are using the correct size sleeves for the wire there shouldn't be an issue with crimps not holding. Make sure you are using the right tooth on the crimp tool for the barrels you are using. I have a friend who will upsize the sleeve one size and then loop the wire through a second time which pretty much eliminates the holding issue. Frankly I've never found that necessary. As to the weight of the material used fluoro or wire remember that it's not necessarily about the weight of the fish that you are catching but the shock that the leader endures on such things as hooksets, the dreaded mid-air backlash, weight of lures, etc. that puts the most stress on a leader. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Right--there isn't much "reserve" strength in 80-pound leader material...to that I'll agree. So any fraying of a fluoro leader is bad news, when it's that low in tensile strength. Any fraying weakens the leader of course, but it's more potentially more significant when that material is 80-pounds, versus 160-pounds for instance.
For fluoro leaders, I've made my own with crimps--but to be honest, it's more of a pain in the butt. You have to find the exact right sleeves and this can be a bit more challenging, due to the diameter of the leader material compared to that of the available sleeves. So if I was going to use fluoro a lot, I might just buy from Stealth, because it simply might be easier than making them myself. But where I fished here on Green Bay, fluoro was NOT necessary, and so the 7 Strand nylon-coated cable was the ticket for me. It actually blends in with the water and thus is virtually invisible. Use some black terminal tackle, and you're good to go. I've made a few hundred of these leaders using double-barrel crimps and Berkley ball-bearing swivels and black delrin tuna rings from Malo tackle.
As for breakage at the crimp, that shouldn't happen. If it does, it's most likely because the edge of the sleeve is being crimped. It shouldn't be.
Check out this link: http://www.leadertec.com/tipsandtechniques/crimp_techniques.html
...and look at the pictures of the properly crimped sleeves. I'll attach the one I am specifically referring to. The sleeve on the LEFT is correctly crimped, and you can see how the ends are not crimped. The sleeve on the right is incorrectly crimped, and has likely introduced stress risers into the leader material. So you cannot trust it, and it should be discarded.
TB
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| This is probably a stupid question but has anyone tried just tying flourocarbon leaders instead of crimping? Would knot strength be the issue here? By the way the only flourocarbon leader I've ever used was a stealth 135lb and I pulled one of the crimps loose on a snag resulting in a lost lure. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Yes, people do indeed tie fluoro. I've not done it, but I have seen a number of people do it--in fact, I believe that Stealth ties their fluoro leaders...or at least they used to. I haven't looked at their stuff in a while, as I don't have any need for a fluoro leader. But I've also seen people tie the swivel on, and then put a crimp on the tag end to secure it further.
But you can definitely tie fluoro--up to a certain diameter anyway.
TB |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | Guest, Our leaders are knotted and crimped. The crimp has nothing to do with the holding strength of the leader. It is in place to hold the loop where we want it and to keep the tag end down. If a crimp were to slide free it would not affect the strength of the leader at all. If it was crimped only it was not our leader. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | i've made my own 180 lb for many years...i only crimp them w a double barrel crimp...no failures and they are rock solid. (the weakest link is not the leader if you are using 80 lb line!)
finding the correct sleeves is simple.
180 lb use 1.6mm
130 lb use 1.3mm
imo anything less than 130 is not smart...
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Posts: 5874
| I've caught hundreds fish on tied flouro leaders. I use 50 and 80 lb Flouro. Never had one break. I do check them after every fish, and recycle if I feel any nicks.
My biggest fish, 52 1/2" X 24", was caught trolling a Baby Sahllow Raider, 3' 50 lb Flouro leader, and 50 pound Crystal Fireline, on a 6' fiberglass bass rod. Many other fish up 50" came on this same combination. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | yah well then there are A LOT of guys who have had big fish swallow baits like dawgs with less than 130 and bu bye...shep I'd venture to guess your sample size isn't all that many either...guys who put 100s of fish in the boat a year know that 50 and 80 in the teeth/mouth of a big fish is asking for failure, too thin, easily cut....but whatev. you'll tell us all different i am sure
my biggest pike at 45" was caught on 6 lb line and a jig no leader so are you telling us since it 'can' be done it 'should' be done...c'mon ...really? |
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Posts: 540
Location: Leech Lake, Walker MN | Just go with single strand wire like Windels leaders and just go fishing nothing else to worry about IMO . Never has failed me yet and I don't worry about it |
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| muskihntr - 5/1/2012 10:02 AM
Guest, Our leaders are knotted and crimped. The crimp has nothing to do with the holding strength of the leader. It is in place to hold the loop where we want it and to keep the tag end down. If a crimp were to slide free it would not affect the strength of the leader at all. If it was crimped only it was not our leader.
I thought it was a stealth but I guess I was mistaken since it was only crimped. Sounds like tying and putting a crimp on the tag end is the way to go, guess I'll be trying that soon |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | I make my own fluoro leaders with 150 lb. Seaguar. I knot them and then crimp the tag end like Stealth does. I use the knot shown here: http://leetauchen.com/lees_leader_knot.pdf. You'll need to give yourself a good 6-8 inch tag end since the leader is fairly stiff, but it's easy to tie. I leave a little loop in mine rather than tighten it all the way down so I can change the snap if needed. You could say my crimp holds the tag end in place but also keeps the knot from sliding down tight.
I've also crimped 7 strand wire for live bait rigs and with the right size sleeve/wire and a good crimper, they should hold well.
Tucker |
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Posts: 5874
| BNelson - 5/1/2012 10:45 AM
yah well then there are A LOT of guys who have had big fish swallow baits like dawgs with less than 130 and bu bye...shep I'd venture to guess your sample size isn't all that many either...guys who put 100s of fish in the boat a year know that 50 and 80 in the teeth/mouth of a big fish is asking for failure, too thin, easily cut....but whatev. you'll tell us all different i am sure
my biggest pike at 45" was caught on 6 lb line and a jig no leader so are you telling us since it 'can' be done it 'should' be done...c'mon ...really?
Real nice BN, calling me a liar. And you know exactly how many fish I've caught in the past 15 years since I started using flouro leaders because I report every single fish to you.
Typical of you to attack me because I don't buy leaders from your buddy. It's not the first time. I knew there was a reason I stopped posting here. Azzwipes like you, for one. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | oh come on...take a chill pill...guess it just touches a nerve when i hear guys saying you can use light stuff and honestly I just don't think you catch as many as the other guys I know who are on the water 500+ hours a year that have the horror stories of losing big fish to light leaders getting cut..I think Andy Hamm has a bad one to share if he wants to. not trying to be a jerk but you know the point. take it or leave it.
the analogy you used of catching a 52 isn't really worth it in my book. yes, you can, and some do...but is a 52 that eats a dawg and cuts your 80 lb leader worth it? i know my answer. use equipment that is right for the job at hand. simple. |
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| I agree with bn 100 percent! At least he says it how it is. Stone Cold |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | 1. Anything can fail.
2. Simple formula. The lower pound test you use, the higher your RISK of being bit off or having failure will be. This applies to Fluorocarbon as well as Steel.
3. Use what your comfortable with and what works best for you. |
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Posts: 5874
| I agree with #3.
As for #2, it's a risk I'm willing to take.
Using 50 or 80 lb flouro for some presentations doesn't make it wrong. I should have just said I tie flouro, and don't use crimps, and left it at that.
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Posts: 253
Location: On the water | tcbetka
I like the clear coating on the 7 strand. What kind of wire is it and what pound is it.
Also what size sleeves do you use for the wire.
Thanks, Tom |
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| i have to agree with bn,i have seen a100 lbs leader that have been cut by a fish like buttter,i have seen that only 1 time ,for me 1 time is enough.
you dont use any sleeves for wire leader making |
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