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Posts: 114
| I have read a lot of the blogs on MI membership. As a member of the International Executive Committee, I read them to see what I can learn from the members and nonmembers or past members. It is easy to pot shots when you don't have any skin in the game. I have been on the EC for about a year and I can assure everyone that all members of the EC have the best interests of MI front and center. We have difficulty getting volunteers to serve on this committee. Everyone would rather be out fishing.
The magazine and Keyes Outdoors seem to be the focus of many of the comments. The membership is probably split 75 to 25 in favor of continuing the magazine. It is an expensive venture and we voted to cut the issues to 6 for this year and take the savings and invest it in some national advertising, i.e Keyes Outdoors. Membership has been stagnate or slipping the past few years. With this advertising shot in the arm with Keyes, we hope we can reverse this trend. There is the old but true statement that if you continue to do what you have always done we will get the same results, declining membership and financial issues.
Leo Kofoot |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | the International and it's spending priorities are famous as is the common theme that the local chapter level is the only place where the rubber meets the road ... so common that it's typical to be a topic for discussion and frustration in chapter meetings ... at least from my experience. it's pretty much a given to sell the concept as "well, only part is a waste of time and money ... but at the local level (fill in the blank for what actually gets done).
shifting to Keyes ... ?? ... you may want to get your group together and punt.
or put blinders on and really believe that what 90% put into (3) bullet points is only pot-shots. it's the truth, it's real, it's consistent and has been communicated ... but it's considered "pot-shots" from those with no "skin" in the game = WOW
good luck dude ... |
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Posts: 8781
| I'd argue that everybody who has ever thrown a cast at these stupid fish has "skin in the game"... The problem with membership, as I see it, is threefold:
1. Potential members don't see the value in joining. We hear it again and again. $35? Okay, what do I get for that? A magazine? And how is that different from my subsctiption to In Fishermen, or Musky Hunter? Most folks don't care about fisheries and research. They want to fish, and go home.
2. Muskie Fishing is expensive. Guys are cutting back on trips, buying fewer lures, selling gear... Asking someone who is not a member to join an organization and pay a membership fee, when that $35 could put gas in the boat? Good luck.
3. FISHING is declining. License sales are declining. The average age in some MI chapters is 53. Even our club, which is substantial, (over 300 members) has very few young people. I look around the room, and at 43 I am one of the youngest guys there. You want to get kids involved, and that's important. But kids aren't fishing. Parents don't have the time to TAKE the kids fishing, or the money to take kids fishing.
I think you're largely preaching to the choir here, as the other poll clearly indicates. I think every member of every chapter has heard about the goings on at international, and it's cost MI a LOT of members over the last several years. We pay our membership dues to International, and for most of us, we accept that we get an expensive magazine, a lot of politics, and the lunge log. We also accept that the same dollar amount given to our local chapters will actually buy a few muskies that we might catch one day, and in the back of all our minds I think a lot of us wonder why we just don't give the money to the local clubs and forgo membership all together. It's certainly not a requirement to be an MI Member to actually make a huge difference in the sport.... |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | As much as I'm not a Keys supporter in any way shape or form, I do give the Int'l some credit trying something different to reach the masses. Keys does have good numbers, many of whom are people new to muskie fishing and may not be the jaded MI haters. So it stands to reason that if you want to present your product (MI membership) to potential buyers you look for a vehicle that attracts them to advertise with.
At the end of the day MI is and always will be an imperfect operation. It is run by volunteers plain and simple. If we had full time employees where we could pay a wage to attract talented people things would be different. I doubt we will ever see that happen since muskies don't migrate.
So, we can all good guy about the things we don't like or we can roll up our sleeves and do what we can to make things better. That one is up to each and every one of you. |
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Posts: 203
Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | I agree with Muskie Treats......Any organization has its flaws but in the overall big picture of things Muskies Inc has been imperative in the growth of the sport throughout the country...The sad thing is that many of the younger angler's that are coming up are not joining their local chapters and I think it has hurt our local fisheries. You see guys hitting the water with no pliers, Hook cutters, or even sometimes a quality landing net. In many of their minds there just is an endless supply of fish to catch so they just don't take care of the fisheries that we do have...
Just wish more guys that getting into the sport would join, Like someone said in an earlier post, for $35 you can not hardly buy more then one lure for that price... |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | To those who ask "what's in it for me" they have the wrong mindset and attitude. It isn't about you, it's a conservation organization, not about yourself. If all you care about is yourself, then please, stay away. And try to get over yourself...you ain't that great!
Edited by gtp888 3/21/2012 7:03 AM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Muskie Treats - 3/20/2012 11:04 PM
may not be the jaded MI haters.
or "pot-shots with no skin in the game"
i'll assume you guys aren't salesmen. so, rather than respond to your potential customers' (and your own as stated) concerns, ... just call them names.
a reflection of how musky anglers are perceived in general by many other angling and legal sportsmen though, so at least it's consistent. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | As usual Jonny, you're taking things personal when nothing was directed at you.
What I want to know Jonny is what happened to you? You used to be pretty cool and now you are the jaded old bastard in the room more times then not. Not just on MI stuff but everything else as well. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | why would you think i'm taking anything personal dude ... i guess it must have struck a chord. notice you're the lone-ranger using explatives and personal attacks.
we share the water and ice with others ... we need to remember that.
i was pretty cool i suppose when you thought i agreed with everything you do ...
i fish, ice-fish and spear occasionally and all within legal guidelines ... and live next door to a reservation where people do what they do under treaty (i guess you don't like some of that and that's fine). sometimes perspective is different than for someone who lives and does different things. condemning people for generalities seems to be common coming from you and usually founded by extremes (of which there are on both sides of most arguments).
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | I was one of the posters that took a “pot shot” in the other thread. I was on a device at the time that was not logged in. My post is the one that made the argument International needs to focus on why membership is down and work to find new ways to engage the next generation of members, by abandoning the old (magazine and website) and starting over and embracing more current technology and by focusing on investments in the fishery.
To say mine and others are pot shots is something I’d ask you to reflect on. Many of us want MI to succeed with much stronger numbers than we have now. I have been an active board member over 12 years. I have also severed a couple years on the International membership committee. During that time I think I have learned what the problems are and I shake my head in frustration that the solution is not obvious to International leadership.
Sure, keep the magazine if that’s what it takes to retain the current members, that are aging rapidly. But, come up with another parallel strategy to attract the next generation. What has been done in the past doesn’t work or the rate of attrition wouldn’t continue to increase as it has. Advertising is not the answer. Everyone you are advertising to knows all about MI. You need to fix their perception of MI, not advertise to them. Do some research, not with a survey, get out there and engage with this group and ask them what they want from MI, they will tell you. The most common theme I hear is, NOT that they don’t want to spend $35. It is why should I give money to International when all they do is spend it on a magazine, a dinosaur of a web site and advertising. This year the choice was to go with a sponsor that is abrasive and polarizing to many. This is another example of making them feel like International isn’t connected with what the membership wants. Much like you probably feel about our current congress. They are aware that not one penny of their $35 makes it to the chapter. They would rather see their money go to the chapter where it will be invested in developing the local fishery, something they directly benefit from. To attract this group you need to repurpose the money spent on magazines and advertising and give it back to the chapters through qualifying grants. If you can’t do that, then change the no-magazine membership to $35 and give all but the costs of insurance and nominal admin costs, say $10, to the chapters grant program. If you don’t think this will work, look at what the Hugh Becker grant program is doing to get people rallying around a cause. Then take some creative minds and make some smart phone apps that leverage the value of the lunge log, (your greatest intellectual property) and overlay it with solunar data, add a subscription blog and/or email newsletter that keeps membership up to date about money invested in chapter projects and how those projects are progressing to deliver results locally over time.
Joe Mellott
Chapter 01
Edited by Luke_Chinewalker 3/21/2012 7:55 AM
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Posts: 5874
| Get rid of the magazine. It's expensive to print. It's directing funds that would be better spent elswhere. Just put a link on the MI website. In fact, make the e-magazine link available to everybody. As a former member, I never looked forward to receiving the magazine. Certainly not with the same anticipation as Musky Hunter, or Esox Angler.
As for the recent sponsorship of Keyes Outdoor? I guess if he can keep from bashing good people in the industry, it's probably not a bad idea. Course, that depends on how much they are paying him, too.
A big change in the way the International operated, and was looked upon, came when Perry Smith became President. He worked tirelessly to change the culture of MI, and the way the local chapters viewed the International. I had several converstations with Perry in Milwaukee, and once on LOTW. Great guy, and great passion for the sport and MI. Unfortunately, Perry's tenure was too short, and his vison has been somewhat lost. I know Jay Zahn. He is a great guy, and is working hard to improve the culture of MI as a whole. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Luke - Shep ... Halleluyah
and Treats, my mother would argue with your label of me (pretty loyal old gal), but i'm sure she'll forgive you ... |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | A non member reading this might just agree with the 'perception of MI' issues. One of the problems with Muskies Inc recruiting has always been the tendency to 'guilt trip' folks into signing up instead of selling a positive experience that benefits the new member and the sport. Even more troubling is the tendency to accelerate the process if challenged with objections.
The sometimes negative perception of MI is, has been, and will continue to be a public relations issue. Read some of the posts from MI members in this and the other active MI thread. A couple were so offensive we had to delete them.
I've been a member of several clubs over the years. All were good organizations and the experience was positive for the most part. The Cap City Chapter muskie school last weekend was a blast.
It's true that any new member can make a difference if they choose to join and become very involved. It's true the Clubs need new membership and need active members. It's true the organization at the local level does allot for the fisheries. But it's still my choice whether to become a member or not, and insulting, belittling, or attempting to use 'guilt trip' jargon in the process of recruiting me probably won't endear me to the concept.
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Posts: 7038
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | I'm not a member but I will find a way to give to my local club. My local club is awesome, with a great group of guys that do a lot of great things for both the fisheries and the local community. However, I never want another dime of my money to go to International. For those of you who say "who cares about international, just join locally", I say no thanks on the basis of where I choose to spend my money.
And my concience (sp?) is pretty clear on giving back to the fisheries so the usual MI guilt trip doesnt work on me. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot |
There are a lot of "perks" (like 10% off of baits at Thorne Bros), fishing trips to waters you may not fish by yourself, decades of fishing knowledge by the members, etc. The bottom line benefit is that being active and involved will eventually improve fishing for YOU!
I apologize to Sled. Your constant negative attitude drew me down into the mud and I went for a round and I know better. Have a great day. |
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| I love you too Shawn |
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Posts: 3147
| It costs $100 to join Sams club so you can buy product from them
it costs $35 to join Muskies inc and show local dnrs that the interest and number in muskie fishing is growing when dnr budgets are looking for reasons to cut programs
I dont disagree with the figure that about 10% of all muskie fisherman are MI members but I dont see that has an embarrassment on MI's part has much has WHY??? if you dont agree with MI havent the other 90% organized another national muskie org, Muskies inc has no patton/copyright on muskie orgs
MI is fine,,the reason there is no other national muskie org is because the people that would have the ambition to start that have already joined MI
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Clubs like the Figure 8 club in north central Wisconsin blow MI out of the water. Just about every dime goes back to the fisheries. |
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Posts: 183
Location: Grand Forks ND | There wouldn't be the fishing there is now without the work of Muskies, Inc.
PERIOD!!!!! |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | MuskyManiac09 - 3/21/2012 9:20 AM
There wouldn't be the fishing there is now without the work of Muskies, Inc.
PERIOD!!!!!
How do you know? MI has done some great things, no doubt. But you're wildly assuming that we'd be living in the dark ages had MI not been started. |
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | - "The sad thing is that many of the younger angler's that are coming up are not joining their local chapters and I think it has hurt our local fisheries. You see guys hitting the water with no pliers, Hook cutters, or even sometimes a quality landing net. In many of their minds there just is an endless supply of fish to catch so they just don't take care of the fisheries that we do have" Dave williamson...
I am going to have to disagree with you on that one. The thing that bothers me about this is a lot of the more seasoned guys think us younger guys don't know what we're doing, strictly because we are young. That is just not the case. Maybe if a guy is out there wanting to chase muskies and does not have any of the proper gear, including the right reel or rod. I could see that. But for the most part if the younger guys have the "bug" they are very good about doing everything correctly. I am an active member of MI and I am 26 years old. My brother who is 18 and four of friends (also 18) that I took Musky fishing last year are also on their way to joining. All of the younger guys that I know who fish muskies have the exact same passion for the sport and the fish that the older more experienced guys do.
When I hear people say that the younger guys don't know what their doing because they are "young" is the exact reason that a lot of them don't want to join. Why would we want to be a part of a system where we are looked down upon by some of the senior members (not all). It is not a good feeling, and bothers me that people actually think that way. IMO it is ignorance to say anything like that. I know that MI does a lot to get some younger guys in and started into musky fishing.... but it starts with you...! If you act towards us as such then your right we wont join and MI will start to falter more then it already is.
Now I do agree in the sense that there are young guys out there that dont know what they are doing, but I would say 99% of those guys are not trying to chase Muskies on a regular basis. They are going for bass, and just enjoy catching larger fish. But no "smart" person invests thousands upon thousands of dollars in gear to destroy a system they are trying to protect.
I will continue to be an active part of MI for as long as I can still hold a rod. I refuse to let the fisheries that you guys worked so hard to put together for "us young guys", fall apart. I will do everything in my power to keep it up and going. But we as young guys need to know that we are supported by the whole cast of experienced Musky hunters, and not just the ones that choose to be nice on a certain given day.
I do know that most "seasoned" anglers do support the younger guys. But it is the select few with bad out looks on youth fisherman that keep us out.
And if I misunderstood the comment then I apologize. But things like this do happen on a regular basis to some guys I know, myself included.
Edited by FAT-SKI 3/21/2012 10:55 AM
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | FAT-SKI, you are well spoken and IMO you nailed this one! I see and hear a lot of what you're saying with regards to older anglers not respecting the younger ones. I had heard one of the reasons for Muskies Inc. joining with Keyes Outdoors Show and their onling magazine was to reach a younger audience and help to increase membership of the younger crowd. I heard this from a very reliable source who was at the meetings with the International when this all came about. |
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Posts: 3147
| Pointer
if you demand info from MM
I think we need to know about figure 8,,Id love to hear more about their work
Edited by happy hooker 3/21/2012 11:02 AM
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | happy hooker - 3/21/2012 10:01 AM
Pointer
if you demand info from MM
I think we need to know about figure 8,,Id love to hear more about their work
What have I demanded from MI?
They stock thousands of fingerlings each year in their local waters. They host a giant fundraiser that usually brings their club over 20 grand in one weekend. I was a member for a year or two before I moved away. A good group of guys. Very little politics, very little BS, a large amount of beer, and a meat raffle. Most of the money generated is generated locally and it stays locally. |
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | gtp888 - 3/21/2012 10:53 AM
FAT-SKI, you are well spoken and IMO you nailed this one! I see and hear a lot of what you're saying with regards to older anglers not respecting the younger ones. I had heard one of the reasons for Muskies Inc. joining with Keyes Outdoors Show and their onling magazine was to reach a younger audience and help to increase membership of the younger crowd. I heard this from a very reliable source who was at the meetings with the International when this all came about.
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Hey gtp888... I appreciate the compliment. I have also heard that. But being a young guy who is an avid Musky hunter as well as knowing a few other young guys out there. To be honest, MI can advertise all they want. I understand the MI in a way is using keys to reach guys like me. But I feel I can safely say, regardless to advertising it is not going to make a difference if there is no respect coming from the other "senior" members. I attended my first meeting a few weeks ago and the signals I got from the people there were very mixed. Some of the guys were more then willing to give me info, and discuss with me what they know, so I can further expand my knowledge of this beautiful sport. But there were other people that looked at me like I was just a "dumb kid" in their eyes and it almost made me not want to go back. I tried to talk to as many people as possible, some were willing some were not. When you try and try to speak with people to expand knowledge and they just blow you off. It does not matter how much advertising is out there.
If members of MI are concerned about the number of youth members joining (and they should be) The difference in how MI is run needs to start with its senior members, not getting rid of a magazine. if people think that young fisherman aren't joining because of a few expensive pieces of paper, that is just laughable in my mind. Its because there is no mutual respect... If that is not going to change, then nothing is going to change. Once it is realized that "you need us, more then we need you" the active members will sky rocket. I am not trying to sound self centered. Like I said in my previous post. I want to be a part of this system because I believe in it. I just need the senior members to believe in us 100% not 50%
Edited by FAT-SKI 3/21/2012 11:24 AM
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Posts: 20218
Location: oswego, il | I think the international has come along way in the past few years. Still some old guard left tossing out an anchor but I like the fact some new things are being done and to what those have been can be agreed and disagreed upon. The dialog about how to improve is ongoing and should all be taken into consideration. I am all for getting the young blood into this sport too. New ideas and technology are a great thing. I also do like what was said earlier about it's not what you get but what you put into it. I think organizations like DU and Pheasants Forever do a better job of conveying that message. One thing MI needs to do is talk to what we do for you and have done for you alot more. Sure chapter challenges and memorial tournaments are fun and build comraderie and you can certainly read about it in the magazine and the old website. Try and find out about issues concerning musky anglers to be voted on during the spring hearings and there isn't anything. Make a difference there, then hang your hat on it, you can talk to that to any potential future member. We did this for you beats come fish our tournament most every time.
Edited by ToddM 3/21/2012 11:38 AM
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Location: Illinois | I limed the way you it was before you edited it Todd.
I've never joined b/c I'm selfish, cheap, and dislike grumpy old men.
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Posts: 20218
Location: oswego, il | "Smart" phones small keys too small for your fingers can make me look like an idiot every time. I click on slamr's profile page every day. I am sure he really lime's that! |
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Posts: 8781
| Getting the younger crowd involved is a challenge, that's true. But I don't think the blame lies with MI, or the guys in the club. When you get to the age where you are able to afford muskie fishing, what are you typically doing? Married, job, kids, house... Trying to make a living and keep everything together from day to day and week to week. We see it in all of our activities. There is hardly anyone between the ages of 25 and 40 who really has the time or the money in their life to be able to join a fishing club. The only people we've found in our age group who are able to spend the money and time are divorced, never married, or couples with no kids. The rest are too busy just trying to make it in life. |
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Posts: 833
| I'm a member of the North Metro club here in the Twin Cities. I joined last year to go to a banquet and hear Larry Dahlberg speak. Since then I joined the club and recently decided to become more active as I see value in the club. The International issues do not really concern me. I'm sure they are very important to some folks and I do not begrudge them that, however, I think it it covers up the great benefits that local clubs have to offer. As a fisherman who is still fairly new to the sport, the club offers a myriad of benefits. Every month I get to hear a different guide speak and I learn new things that might have taken me years on the water to figure out on my own. The other members will share information that helps you become a better fisherman. The local leagues, tournies, and trips are all excellent opportunities that wouldn't be present without the club. I think it is a great opportunity to speed your learning curve and meet other people that have the same addiction as you.
Just my opinion. |
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