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Posts: 174
Location: Ontario | So First the fishing story,then the question about legal fish.
I just recently joined and posted my muskie here that many people commented on.Totally cool,this is a great site.
My Buddy Adam caught this prehistoric looking thing 2 years ago on Georgian Bay.Prior to this fish,his biggest fish ever was a 5lb pike. This beauty snapped my net in half,and I had the pleasure of landing him by hand as my Buddy stood as far away as possible. Great fish great experience. Needless to say Adam is now a Muskie addict and has spent thousands feeding the hunger to catch more.
The question to all is this. Im a member of a fishing club on Georgian Bay near Parry Sound Ontario. The Ministry has posted a 54" legal limit on keeping a muskie. This speaks of conservation to me. The problem being,some members do not acknowledge that any fish under 54" is a legal fish. I have moved the majority to the position that it is legal to handle a fish under 54"...Measure it,photograph it,and then safely release it. Legal Fish !
Opinions are really welcomed. Look forward to everyones input
Attachments
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 adams muskie.jpg (98KB - 150 downloads)
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Most Co's will say nothing. Some have told me they would charge you as the fish was not imediately released and take your camera for evidence. One CO said this would apply to anyone stoping to take pictures of any fish even over min. size with a conservation license. Like I said most would do nothing but some would get their shorts in a knot.
Edited by horsehunter 2/28/2012 3:55 PM
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Posts: 489
| As long as its not in a livewell, on a stringer or in a cooler it seems there would be no attempt to harvest the fish. If they are going to take the stance that you cant photograph and illegal fish and safely release it, then the idea behind the size limit has been lost. As I understand it, the size limit is to ensure that basically no musky is harvested from the said lake. anyways, nice fish and congrats! |
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | Its one thing for someone to take a pic for some fish under 54 inches as those fish can’t read if we put “no fish under 54 inch” on our baits and taking pictures of fish that were caught out of season. I use to fish the walleye opener in Canada and we often catch muskies on our small crankbaits. My buddy would often want a pic of his muskies. When I caught one, I told him I wouldn’t want anything on film that would earn me a ticket. Since then he too would not request a pic. I think if a warden wants to be a total Richard, he could write a ticket for taking the extra time to photograph a sub-legal fish, but I’m certain he knows that today’s muskie anglers are one of the most anal release zealots on the planet and have the fishes best interest. |
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Posts: 536
| I think it is a legal fish when it is legal to keep it. Otherwise it is supposed to be a immediate release. Now with a immediate release you can take a quick picture I think. Not every species can be kept in the water while you take the hooks out. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | The problem is some CO's take immediate litrrally no time out for pictures ( they have an office 100 yds up the road from my house and we have batted this around many times. One used to argue that I couldn't target muskies with a conservation license even the MNR website clearly says you can. I had this argument every time I bought my license. Now that I'm a senior I no longer have to buy a license |
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| Wait until Marc Reynolds (or Patrick Chewing) responds, 'they' will give you the "right" answer. |
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Posts: 100
| The general consensus seems to be that taking a picture of a fish that is outside of a size limit is ok as long as they fish is handled correctly and released quickly (and it is caught in season). If I remember correctly the language in the regulations stipulates immediate release, but there is no definition of what immediate means. In this case a CO may think that taking a photo is not immediate release and may charge you. In this case you would have to fight the charge, and would probably win, but could get your equipment confiscated. I wish the MNR in Ontario would issue a specific ruling on this case, because as it stands now a CO could be having a bad day and charge you, and then you would have to jump through hoops to clear your name.
So to answer your question taking a picture with any fish that is not legal to harvest, or that you are not legally allowed to harverst could be a spin of the dice. You could be charged. Personally I find it rediculous that if caught a 50" musky in the Ottawa river and took a pic some CO could charge me, but that is the system we have. |
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Posts: 767
Location: Ames, Iowa | Gregoire- Horsehunter:
What exactly would one be charged with? |
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| its legal to catch the fish... its just not legal to keep it cuz its under 54 inches...take a pic and put it back nothing illegal about it |
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Posts: 7
| John Petshaw and I believe its legal! |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Look up the word immediate in the dictionary, most CO's would say nothing if A picture was QUICKLY taken. But I know others that have said TO ME that they would lay the charge.
That is one reason (although I have worked on geting size limits increased in the past) I'm not sure I am now in favour.
MUSKIE FISHERMEN ARE 99% RELEASE ORIENTED AND THE CASUAL OR BASS ANGLER IS NOT EQUIPPED FOR SPEEDY RELEASE AND FISH DIE FROM MISSHANDELING
Edited by horsehunter 2/29/2012 7:01 AM
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Posts: 100
| djwilliams - 2/29/2012 12:20 AM
Gregoire- Horsehunter:
What exactly would one be charged with?
You could be charged with possesion of an illegal fish. I think it is a criminal offense and requires a court appearance. The CO has the right to confiscate all equipment, from tackle, rods and reels, to a boat and a car. |
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| In a conversation with an Ontario MNR CO, I was told that technically, taking a picture of an undersized or out of season fish is illegal. Under normal circumstances, he would not charge someone for doing it with muskies unless that person did something to really tick off the CO.
The only time he has used that provision in the regs, is to get guys targeting bass out of season. About the only thing they can get to stick.
Furthermore, he said that it is legal to target muskies with a conservation license as long as the muskie season is open and you release the fish "immediately."
Bill |
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Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | Has anyone ever been charged with catching a "non-legal" and taking a picture? Ever? |
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Posts: 100
| horsehunter - 2/29/2012 8:00 AM
Look up the word immediate in the dictionary, most CO's would say nothing if A picture was QUICKLY taken. But I know others that have said TO ME that they would lay the charge.
That is one reason (although I have worked on geting size limits increased in the past) I'm not sure I am now in favour.
MUSKIE FISHERMEN ARE 99% RELEASE ORIENTED AND THE CASUAL OR BASS ANGLER IS NOT EQUIPPED FOR SPEEDY RELEASE AND FISH DIE FROM MISSHANDELING
I think having size limits does a few things. It encourages catch and release, especially in destination lakes like LOTW. It also helps to increase the chance of catching a trophy. It also makes it very clear to people that musky are an apex predator who will not be able to sustain their numbers if they are harvested by humans.
Even though I agree that a musky caught by a bass or walleye angler will have less of a chance of surviving, it still has a chance if it is released. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | "it still has a chance if it is released"
point taken
But I would like to see the regulations clearly state that you can QUICKLY take a picture
Edited by horsehunter 2/29/2012 9:07 AM
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | I am reading some of the posts on this forum... and I am curious. Are you guys saying that in Canada if you accidentally catch a 'non-legal' Musky, or catch one in general that is not legal- you CAN NOT take a picture??? That seems strange to me? Then again I don't live in Canada.
Next question... Is this rule (if in place) would only apply to certain Canada waters? Or is this a generalization of all Musky waters, Ontario or not?
I'm Sorry I guess I am really confused..
Thanks in advace
Edited by FAT-SKI 2/29/2012 9:31 AM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | In Ontario an undersize or out of season fish must be immediately released (technically NO picture) What happens depends on the individual CO. They are spread very thin but you do so at your own risk.
Edited by horsehunter 2/29/2012 9:52 AM
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Posts: 100
| I agree. Clarification of this issue would make me feel better., I started a topic on another forum and apparently violating the fishing regulations are much like breaking a traffic law. Most of the time you are fined, and the cases are not criminal, but serious offences can result in large fines and criminal cases.
Whatever the case there does not seem to be strict guidelines in place, leaving far too much discretion in the hands of conservation officers in my mind.
FAT-SKI this discussion is based on the Ontario Fishing Regulations, I do not know what the regulations are for other jurisdictions. |
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Posts: 2015
| And technically if you are one mile per hour over the speed limit an officer COULD write you a ticket.
Edited by IAJustin 2/29/2012 10:15 AM
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| Horsehunter is right, IMO.
And there's a well-known CO just south of where you are Tim who makes the odd loop up to where your buddy is holding the fish (you guys love that Guitar Hold eh? :), I know that exact spot) who will ding you down to every letter of the law, you can bank on it. Taking an undersized fish out of the water for pictures is an exact offfense he looks for, his words. I have talked to him before. In the boat="posession." Undersized fish must be water-released by his definition. My last conversation with him was in 2009. Unhooked and revived in the water and let go. The guy's a cowboy and has a real agenda for muskie fisherman. They get held down to the regs as HE reads them. Like horsehunter says, mix that with the fact that there are fewer and fewer guys to do patrols and you're not likley to get much leeway. The government has no other way to generate revenue other than fines. The odds of you getting a break when you're the needle in their haystack is pretty slim. These guys burn a lot of gas covering water thats way too big in area. When they come upon you and find something, they will likely ding you. Same story all winter icefishing. It's a ridiculous rule, and there wouldn't be many fish pics in the world out of gb if they all had to be 54+. I've broken the law lots of times, by their definition/interpretation. The CO who works the area you're in is a little more sensible. But what are the odds of him being out at the exact minute you're unhooking a 53.5? Pretty slim. COs travel with OPP 90% of the time in my experience on gb, and booze is their no1 target. Safety gear is no2. The odds of you meeting any CO or OPP on most of that body of water is slim, the odds of you meeting the midnite cowboy are slimmer still where you are. When you do get stopped, be ready for a thorough series of checks. Unless they know your boat and see you a fair bit. When I see them where I fish I rarely take the boat out of gear. They pull up, say hello and ask how the fishing has been. They've checked me before and know that the safety gear's all there, we don't carry booze and we're muskie fishing so don't have a livewell to check for over the limit walleye, bass etc. |
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | Another FINE example of extremism in this great sport thats helping to ruin it!! First off, a 54" limit is extreme and absurd and ssecond, the notion that an angler is disallowed the opportunity to take a photo with his/her catch is even more rediculous. Let them catch me, if they can....If the guy wants to give me a fine, so be it, but he won't get off without hearing an earful from me.
Edited by ShutUpNFish 2/29/2012 1:07 PM
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Posts: 143
Location: La Crosse, WI | How are you suppose to measure it (accurately) if you don't take it out of the water? What happens when you measure it out of the water and its "only" 53 1/2 inches. Seems pretty ridiculous that you can't take a picture with one. I could understand if they were endangered or threatened...I have a hard time believing you can get in trouble for photographing a undersized fish during the season. Who wouldn't want to take a quick photo before releasing a 50+ inch fish. |
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Posts: 897
| I sent the MNR an email to see if they would provide clarification. I know in MN the definition of "Immediate Release" is provided in the regulations and allows time to identify, measure and photograph a fish even if it is out of season or not of a legal size. |
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| As to the question.................has anyone ever been charged/fined for possessing an undersized or out of season fish ?
Two instances of I know of personally.................one in Wisconsin circa mid nineties where a smalltime guide had caught an under the 40 inch minimum november fish out of deep water on a sucker and the fish was'nt staying upright so it went in his Ranger livewell and he motored directly up onto the shoreline in shallow water with it in his livewell. Unfortunately just so happened to be witnessed doing so all the while by an overzealous game warden from behind the bushes that had been egging to give him a violation of any sort for some time. He tried explaining he had no intentions of ever keeping the fish; did'nt matter, he got a ticket anyways. The fish was under the lake's legal size limit and the game warden was a jerk.
I personally got a ticket while walleye fishing the spring run up on the Rainy River from an Ontario game warden about 5 years ago. The fine was $255.00 and the violation was worded as "Transport fish unlawfully taken or possessed" .................. this as well was a fish never intended to be kept. In fact the season in both Mn and Ontario the season is closed for any walleye over 17 inches. The only purpose for using my livewell was to stabilize this walleye that I did'nt even catch, while we were getting ready to do the picture deal.................again, another bad timing thing I suppose as two game wardens were about 70 yards downstream watching us the whole time and when the fish went in the livewell, they made "their move". Of course I explained to him that we had no intention of keeping the fish, they said you can tell that to the judge and wrote out the tickets, one for me and another for me partner as he did'nt have an Ontario license. Oh, we were anchored dead center (by line of site bank to bank) in the middle of the Rainy River..................yet the borderline between MN?Ontario is not dead center bank to bank, and they had their maps to show us.
Possesion is undoubtedly, a fish in your livewell, no matter for how long or what your intentions! You put a fish in your livewell either undersize, out of season or while fishing with someone else who catches a musky that merely has a conservation license even if you had a regular license and are witnessed doing so by a game warden ..................they CAN give you a ticket. |
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Posts: 174
Location: Ontario | Many lakes in Ontario have increased the slot size on muskie.As everone here notes,all fish regardless of size would be released.Fishing is way down across the province.Muskie fishermen generally represent true conservationists.
A fish over 54 inches is trully a fish of a lifetime,and even so who would ever consider putting into a livewell and killing it.
Correct me if I am wrong, but was the record Muskie recently caught on the St Lawrence River not less than 54" ?
On another note,Georgian Bays fishing populations are reportedly at 20% of their previous totals...so conservation would be sensible for ALL species of fish |
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Posts: 7
Location: Toronto | So, Tim, is this club North of Parry Sound or south towards Frying Pan Island ?
Just curious  |
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Posts: 1529
| totally retarded. how can you know its legal without measuring it. .i live in canada ,fished muskies since 1956, never ever experienced this goofy rhetoric.. why do folks have to create the sky is falling.theorys |
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Posts: 174
Location: Ontario | We are located south of Parry Sound...About 3km away from Devils Elbow.. Have caught 7 muskie in that zone in the past 3 years. Lots of big pike as well.Fishing was really poor up until 3-4 years ago.But seems like its turning now.Still not lots of fish,but getting better every year. Smallies,lakers are everywhere
The main reason I asked question on the slot size...If you were part of a fishing club that had derbys...Would you consider under 54" a legitimate fish ? Or does a 7lb pike win ? Seems to me that in the spirit of the chase and the landing and release,the muskie wins every time.
Edited by Tim R 3/2/2012 9:28 AM
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