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Posts: 165
Location: Minnesota | Does anyone know if there is any scientific data to support UV painting of baits for large predatory fish. I found quite a few on smaller pelagic fish that primarily forage on phytoplankton and small invertebrates use UV light to locate prey, but nothing on larger fish? Just curious with the new dawgs and such coming out.
thanks in advance
Dan |
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Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | It's just another sales gimmick IMO, just like the red hook craze. I've used the UV coating on my powder coated walleye jigs & I see no difference in my catch rate if I'm using a chartreuse jig or a chartreuse jig with the UV coating.
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Posts: 32892
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | There's been some pretty solid evidence offered that esox see in the UV spectrum. |
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Posts: 415
Location: madison wisconsin | Is there a link you have Steve? Would like to read. Thanks |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Ya, Steve.... I'd also like to see and read "the solid evidence" that backs this claim. Thanks,
Jerome |
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Posts: 2068
Location: Appleton,WI | Where have all the U.V. painted musky blades been? |
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Posts: 134
Location: Central Wi | I thrid the reading info, would just like to know how and why it works...
UV Blades, I like that idea... |
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| Top H2O - 1/25/2012 12:31 AM
Ya, Steve.... I'd also like to see and read "the solid evidence" that backs this claim. Thanks,
Jerome
same thing here,and please no studies that have been sponsored by the guys who claim those solid ''evidence''
jk |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | They have done similar studies on walleye, deer, and other game. Biologist can look at the physical makeup of the eyes receptors; types, shapes, counts, etc. It's not an impossible task like many would think. |
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Posts: 32892
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Exactly.
Dr. Jerry Bucholtz ( a pretty smart guy and a heck of a muskie angler) studied the retina of the Esox, and a structure that indicates UV perception ( if I remember correctly, it was a tri-pyramid like structure) was observed, strongly indicating that the fish see in the UV spectrum. They are also able to see color, unlike Whitetails. There's also a protein that is present in the retina of critters that see in the UV, and more recent science that allows for protein analysis of the fish's retina have tested out to have the necessary protein present.
http://fishandboat.com/pafish/fishhtms/chap1.htm
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/204/14/2517.full.pdf
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/02/ultraviolet-fish-face/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_in_fishes
http://midcurrent.com/science/fish-eyesight-does-color-matter/
http://www.halibut.net/What-Fish-See.htm
http://uvfacts.com/index_files/Page381.htm
There's plenty more. Use your search engine.
'same thing here,and please no studies that have been sponsored by the guys who claim those solid ''evidence''
jk'
I have absolutely no idea what this means. Look around and study the subject a bit, plenty to read from those who have no horse in the fishing lure race, if that's your point.
This isn't exactly 'breaking news' either. The UV perception by fishes discussion has been going on for at least a dozen years.
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| Muskies having certain receptors is not evidence they're used in any meaningful way, especially in an animal with a highly adapted lateral line. The UV receptors could be vestigial or an evolutionary dead-end just as easily. I'm waiting for proof it matters before jumping on the latest bandwagon. |
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Posts: 32892
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That is addressed in some of the literature linked here, in a nutshell answering why some fishes have eyes at all. It's well known muskies are sight feeders, that is not disputed anywhere I can find, and is widely supported in most of the available literature. I remember when all the unread masses challenged the Whitetail UV perception literature, until they found out why UV enhancing laundry detergent was responsible for their camo not being camo.
UV does much more most muskie anglers bought into a long time ago. Otherwise, you would not have many firetiger lures in the box...
I personally don't much care if they can or can't see in the UV spectrum, but believe they can based on what I have read and discussed with some folks who should know. I'm not sure if it has a thing to do with successful predation on most of the muskies food group, not sure what, if any surface on any of the prey identifies in the UV spectrum. Big difference in absorption/reflection of UV, by the way.
I know they can see black ALL the time. Pretty much gets it done for me... |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | What a cool discussion. So, from a manufacturing point of view "colors catch customers" but (example) would a UV perch Grandma catch more fish than a similar perch color Grandma painted in non-UV paint? Kind of an easy experiment to run IMO. You need to troll two identical baits side by side (maybe about 3'-4' a part from each other, one UV and the other the same color but painted in non-UV paint. To help the experiment you would need to troll 4 lures (2 on each side of the boat) and alter the UV on the outside on one side and then the UV on the inside on the other side passing the same structure back and forth so each set of lures gets their time closer to the structure and further away, etc.... Ideally you would do this in heavily musky concentrated waters and for about 8-12 hours over 5-10 days or until you get at least n=20+ musky boated. I am not the best with statistics but this should give you a good R squared value to work with. IMO anything over a 0.80 would be significant for this study. Also, the more musky you boat the better as this will increase your stats confidence. Now, who has 10 days to spend fishing only trolling 4 baits?  Sounds like a fun trip to LOTW for a few weeks! I would almost bet this study has been done by some big bass and/or walleye lure manufacturers but is the data public? I have access to about every scientific journal article in every language in the world. I will see what I can find over lunch next week.
James |
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Location: Grand Rapids MN | Only issue James is there are to many other uncontrollable factors plus there is no advantage to UV in that situation since fish can see colors in daylight. You would have to be in an environment where UV spectrum is more predominant than the rest of the light spectrum such as deeper water or early mornings and late evenings (near dark). Then maybe over time a pattern or trend may emerge.
Like anything else there's no guarantee but all this is doing is taking advantage of what's available. We know muskies do utilize their sight (as do deer even thou they have great noses and hearing they still use it; as Steve was eluding to earlier) and that muskies have the capabilities if seeing UV; plus we know UV is available longer throughout the day and that it penetrates deeper into the water. So why not take advantage? I you think it's BS then don't buy it. This whole thing of "prove it" won't amount to much because none of us has the expertise or capabilities to proving it. To me I see the point but I'm not going to say it will make a lick of difference or not; cause I can't. |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | Targa01, Good points! If the fishermen kept good logs for morning, daytime, evening and night (moon-no moon) conditions that would help out the study a lot but then (IMO) you would need a lot more mucky boated. So, I only know of a few guys who boat 100+ fish in a year and that took them all year. This study is for the retired musky fisherman with a few years on their hands I for one don't have room to add more colors UV or not to my inventory. I must say it is a nice catch though for an overstocked market place right now. I bet at the shows the "UV" baits are selling! For me I am 90% sure colors sell customers and 10% may trigger additional strikes but vibration and profile are king. |
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| definetly an interesting discussion. my take is regardless if fish see in uv or not if running uv baits gives you more confidence than non uv baits then run uv baits. if you dont buy into uv dont run them. run what gives you confidence and a positive attitude i think that would put far more fish in your boat than lure color and finish. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Sooooooo,...... What the Heck,????? Do I need to buy all Lures going forward, with UV. paint in order to put more fish in the boat?????????
What the @#$%,... You mean to tell me that we can go to the moon,Create life in a test tube, Pay more tax's, and get a sex change, but we just now are figuring out that a certain type of paint on a lure will put more Muskies in the boat???????????? Sheeeeesshhhh! |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | guest - 1/25/2012 8:54 PM
definetly an interesting discussion. my take is regardless if fish see in uv or not if running uv baits gives you more confidence than non uv baits then run uv baits. if you dont buy into uv dont run them. run what gives you confidence and a positive attitude i think that would put far more fish in your boat than lure color and finish.
Sorry guest, But B.S.
Confidence and a positive attitude doesn't put more fish in the boat !
I don't know how many times that I went out before dawn with a positive attitude an a lot of confidence and 12hrs later came back skunked.
Personally, I think that the action, and vibration of a lure trumps the color most of the time.
Jerome |
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Posts: 32892
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Jerome,
We never will know it all. I sure as heck won't, anyway. But I will keep trying to learn as much as I can, sorta like a sponge, I guess. Not THAT Sponge, no one can equal that individual. No one.
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Posts: 165
Location: Minnesota | Thanks for those links Steve. Definitely interesting stuff.
I will continue my quest for more information along the lines that we know skis have the ability to see in UV, but do they actually use it while hunting? The small pelagic bait fish use the UV spectrum to locate prey, as plankton are tiny, but do muskies use it. It wouldn't seem to make much difference for muskies when their prey is typically fairly large. I guess in low light conditions it may make a difference. Anyhow thanks for the discussion everyone. It will likely take a couple seasons or two and people using UV baits to get a decent sample to determine if UV improves fishing.
peace |
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Posts: 32892
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Take a look at how deep UV spectrum light penetrates, and how deep the color spectrum penetrates. Keep in mind the different cells in the cones are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
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| Top H2O i would absolutely disagree that confidence and the right attitude dont put more fish in your boat. its the right frame of mind that keeps you focused on those 12 hour days where you aren't seeing anything. if you have the proper mindset you aren't going to miss fish or get surprised because you weren't paying attention. i do however agree that action and profile outweigh color. |
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Posts: 375
| do a search typing in...uv blast...this company has been making uv enhancement products. they make a product that puts a clear hard drying top coat on hardbaits, another for use on softbaits and they even make a powder paint with the uv enhancement built in. i don't know about you, but i think i may have a couple or maybe it's a couple hundred baits that don't have any teeth marks on them yet that may be worth experimenting with... |
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Posts: 582
| i am not buying it. We have been catching fish for years without it. Lets see if the catch rates sky rocket now that UV is available before we spend 1000$ on UV baits. |
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Posts: 165
Location: Minnesota | Its not that we can't catch fish without it, its will it enhance your ability to catch fish?
In reference to double bladed bucktails , we have been catching them on one blade for years, I don't need to go and spend the money on these double bladed baits, now you can't swing a dead cat and hit a fisherman without a double bladed bucktail.
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Posts: 134
Location: Central Wi | So the story is.... Old baits catch fish.... New baits with UV catch fish... Maybe more even??? Doesnt sound like its going to decrease your chances if you decided to buy a new bait with UV but might just help... No one is making you toss your old baits away...
I just wanna sling some musky baits, and put some fish in the boat... Is this winter thing over yet... |
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Posts: 41
| You may already have "UV" lures and not realized it. Test your fluorescent lures by putting them under a blacklight. If they light up they have a UV paint on them. I got this info from Salmon Trout Steelheader Magazine.
Then put these lures under a regular light and see if they have teeth marks and you can draw your own conclusions as to whether muskies see the UV part of the spectrum.
Might make you have more confidence in these lures in stained water given that UV light penetrates further into the water. |
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| Read this link that Steve originally posted. Go to Black Light heading near the bottom.
http://uvfacts.com/index_files/Page381.htm
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| All the muskie bait ads that I've seen for UV are featuring baits that are glowing under a blacklight. Weird.
"Chances are if you see a product glow using a Black light, it is absorbing UV which is the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish. So beware of ANY product that glows using a black light or ANY color photos of product showing UV reflection."
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Posts: 41
| Been wrong before, no big deal. I wish that article would have shown the same lures under blacklight and then again under the UV camera and filters. That would support authors statement. To use the phrase " chances are" it sounds like the author doesn't really know if his statement is true and has not tested it.
I can't say one way or the other but i would like to see proof supporting definitive statements. The author has some very descriptive scientific info but it doesn't fully support his statement about blacklights and UV light.
My mind is open to either theory right now but I need to see some proof. |
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