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Posts: 19
| What ever happened to "Thou shall not Kill"!!!! now I'm no preachy god freak do good-er, but I do respect ALL life grand or small. I understand harvesting smaller species of fish to eat if you NEED them, but senseless killing for ones personal desire is sick to me! I look at Musky like they are the waters tigers/lions, the big dogs of there jungle, They are far and few between, Not to mention amazing animals, that should be respected by those in admiration. My parents taught me to enjoy what you love, not kill it. Unforeseen mortality does happen, and usually at the hand of the angler, and maybe fishing for them in general isn't right, but at least I try my best as a responsible angler to do no harm, so I can enjoy them my whole life. Just seems Barbaric to end some things life to put on a wall, so you can point it out to your friends, ''Look what I Killed". I point out my 53'' Replica and say "Look what I let go"!!! And to the luck Angler that catches her when she's 58''... You're Welcome. |
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| Well ultimately, if the hunter/fisherman has a license and legally takes the game, it's their decision to keep it or release it. Personally, no, I don't keep muskies. And conservation aside, it's because I don't want to mess with cleaning them and with a limit of one per day, I can keep fishing if I release them. I don't claim to be any more noble or ethical than the guy that keeps a fish.
There is nothing wrong with killing an animal taken in fair chase. Yeah, I'd hate to see a fish wasted, but if a guy catches a 53 or a 43 and wants to hang it on his wall and maybe he eats it, that's his right and not our place to jump on him. We can try and "educate" people on conservation and what we consider the "right" thing to do. But to get up and say that killing a big fish is wrong but killing smaller species and only for need is ok, is ridiculous. I didn't "need" the crappie I slaughtered and killed this past spring, but I "wanted" them for my own "personal desire" as you state....was that wrong?
As for parents, my parents taught me that the greatest way to respect an animal was to humanely harvest it and use it for my nourishment and that was the ultimate communion with nature, and that to mount an animal on the wall also showed repsect to the animal. I think it's a feel-good mentality to get up and say we shouldn't kill anything. It's easy to say that and think you sound like the most enlightened guy around. And we all love muskies, we all admire them. You aren't the only one. No one here wants dead muskies (or any fish) floating around the lake or rotting on the bank, nor does anyone approve of wanton slaughter and disrespect of a fish. That's obvious. But to vilainize legal harvest and those that do it is inappropriate. The same as it is when PETA tries to vilainize fishing because it hurts a fish's mouth and scares them.
I'd guess this site is 99% C&R, so we can agree that it's good for the population. And I agree that "senseless" killing of an animal is wrong. Of course it is. But to get up and say that harvesting for "personal desire" sickens you, well I'm sorry. You don't want to kill an animal, then don't. But don't you dare come in here and say that I sicken you because I keep a fish now and then. And no, I've never killed a muskie that I know of. And I have a replica on my wall of a huge fish that I released, so this isn't me saying I kill muskies. It's me saying that "Thou shall not kill" refers to fellow man and not animals, which are our domain and for our use. I love eating crappie, bluegill, pike, and walleye for my own desire and not because I "need" to. And I think you sound like an elitist who'll eat hamburger or chicken all day long for your "personal desire" but feels enlighted and wise chastising people who kill a fish they caught. |
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| seriously? couldn't have said it any better |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | And no, I've never killed a muskie that I know of
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Great response.
I have. And I do not apologize for that, it was a different time and harvesting Muskies wasn't frowned upon.
I'm an outdoorsman. I hunt and fish.
I kill deer and provide my family with meat that lasts the entire year, and truly enjoy the hunt. I kill bluegills, pike, bass, and crappies and my family eats them. We occasionally raise hogs, ducks, chickens, and turkey for our family's use. Those animals don't die all by themselves when it's time to put them in the freezer.
My grandkids and my kids know meat doesn't come from 'the store', and that's a good thing. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | sworrall - 1/2/2012 11:43 AM
My grandkids and my kids know meat doesn't come from 'the store', and that's a good thing.
Well done Steve. It's essential that people of all ages understand where their meals come from. It always amazes me when people preach endlessly on the ethical treatment of animals but have no clue how the steak/chicken legs/eggs wind up on their plates at mealtime. |
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| the only reason those muskies are there is because people pay for them ... they are a 30 dollar big mac that takes many a "fish of 10,000" casts to catch.... let people eat their #*^@ 30 dollar whooper... |
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| This is about killing something for no logical/sensible reason, Not to feed yourself or provide for a family or community or a nation. I love Chicken and Beef,I don't like that something had to die, but accept it and am grateful for the animals sacrifice! Killing for ones food and killing for "fun'' are two very different things. No one is jumping on anyone. No one is claiming nobility, Just a Opinion. It SICKENS me to see people KILL MUSKY FOR NO REASON!!! just like it sickens me to pay taxes!!! It hardly sounds like I am Chastising people who "harvest' for food, even say it, Sorry should have put need/want, point is you eat them! Seriously? You come off very aggressive just like a bully, reread it, I don't know what you read. also explain how any animal could be taken in "FAIR" chase do they have weapons too? |
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| You come off very aggressive just like a bully, reread it, I don't know what you read. also explain how any animal could be taken in "FAIR" chase do they have weapons too?
Not bullying, just standing up for the fact that I kill animals and I'm happy to do it...I desire killing and eating.
As for "fair" chase, again, you're living in Bambi land. "Fair chase" is the term used to define pursuing game within legal and ethical means. Shooting a deer with a bow or a rifle is fair chase. Shooting a deer with an RPG while it's tied to a tree is not fair chase. If you're looking for the PETA definition of "fair" and the animals shooting back, get real and take into consideration a deer/elk/turkey's sense of sight, smell, hearing, etc. I've spooked more deer than I've shot. I'd say it's pretty fair. |
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Posts: 19
| Got me there!!!! |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | "Thou shall not Kill" applies to human beings, and is a commandment from the Bible. Look up what the Bible says we are supposed to do with the fish and animals, and nature's bounty.
I choose NOT to harvest and eat any muskies based upon a personal conservation ethic.
Not because PETA or some concrete and steel or flowerbed denizen insists I must, but because of the limited number of muskies available and the need to conserve them and let them grow bigger for the future of the sport. Not to reproduce, because then my ethic would be badly flawed, as I fish many waters where natural reproduction for muskies doesn't exist. I release those stocked fish too, just so I and other anglers can catch them....again.
I don't 'need' to harvest gills, crappies, pike and bass, or hunt deer, I can go to the store and buy my food. I choose to hunt and fish, and I choose what to harvest and what to let swim/walk/fly away ( and that decision is made pretty frequently). I have done my best to pass on that heritage to my kids and grandkids, too, and am proud to have done so.
And even though muskies provide a CPR sport for me, none the less it's a 'blood sport' all the way.
Conservation needs to be the message to those who don't share that ethic.
You give yourself away with the last comment. You are causing damage to those muskies when you fish them, you know. You may even kill a few accidentally in the process. It's somewhat obvious the very act of fishing conflicts with your posted mantra.
I get what you are trying to say, I think, but Muskies are not 2 year old human babies. Neither is a yearling doe, a grouse, or a pike. |
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Posts: 69
Location: Pittsburgh | Me Myself And I, Practice CPR, Promote CPR ,Preach NOT. Use what I kill accidently or not. Try to live a verdant life. Absolutely hate anyone who would try to take my God given right to survive in and enjoy as natural a life as I can in a World run by the Unwise
Simple |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | I ate venison once at Steve's house. It was good. So was the conversation around the camp fire. I feel the conversation was a way to respect the venison. Beaver was funny as hell that night, too. I miss that part of no longer being a fisherman more than the musky fishing, which I found to be hard work for a lazy fellow such as myself.
Kevin |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm gonna go make some hashbrowns and corn ... maybe dip some fish into hot oil |
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| I grew up during a different time. If you caught it, you ate it. If you caught lots of them, you ate lots of them. I started releasing fish as a young man because of a particular fish I chased for most of a summer. I finally caught it. At the urging of my parents, and friends, I took it to a taxedermist. The next weekend, we went to the lake, and as usual the first thing I did was grab my fishing gear. Standing there on the pier I realized that the fish I had been chasing for a month or two was gone. And fishing there just wasn't as much fun anymore. From that point on, I was very selective about what I would harvest, because putting them back so they could grow, or so I might catch them again was much more rewarding to me. Up until that point, I don't think I realized that natures gifts are just that. Now, I fish for sport. And sometimes I fish for food. I don't need to eat fish. But then what's the difference if it's a fish or a cow or a pig or a chicken that has to die so I can be fed? I'd much rather be a part of the process of actually finding and catching that fish, and cleaning that fish, so that I can really appreciate my place in the food chain. I don't enjoy killing them. But when I am sitting at the table eating that fish, I appreciate it far more than I ever would if I went and bought fish at the store. I've never killed a muskie for no reason. I've probably killed one or two because I caught them. But then that's why I fish for the stupid things is to catch them. |
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Posts: 177
| Just out of curiosity what happens to the meat when someone takes a musky to be mounted and if it is not eaten is that against the law. |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Perch and bluegills yanked out of a lake and thrown in a pan are two of my favorite things to eat. Better than walleyes in my opinion. When I fished Cass a few times with my Dad we ate lots of perch. They were fabulous.
Kevin |
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| ski glider - 1/2/2012 2:43 PM
Just out of curiosity what happens to the meat when someone takes a musky to be mounted and if it is not eaten is that against the law.
Last time I had a mount done was 1985, so things may have changed since then, but I got the meat. They use the skin, the head and the tail and fins, and you get the rest. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | just a sprinkle a lawry's while they sit on the paper towel then in the bowl with hash browns n corn with fresh cracked black pepper. d@mb that pike was good!!!
anyone who doesn't catch, fillet, clean and cook their own fish is missin' out on some good eats and a heritage that should be passed along to the next generation.
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| I am getting a grill for my boat this summer! |
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Posts: 8772
| Now if I could just figure out how to get the Y bones out of 'em without mangling the crap outta the fillets... |
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| Hmm, pretty interesting, really. I think what we have here is an argument concerning the law of nature and what exactly the ethical obligations should be regarding ecological responsibility. As humans, we use our ability to reason to come up with these rules, even if they sometimes go beyond the natural order of things. In that way, it IS a more enlightened viewpoint that muskyOCD is espousing and isn't really "ridiculous". I think his attempt at persuasion was thwarted by his overall self-righteous attitude, but his point is valid, albeit idealistic. Our brains have enabled us to become the ultimate predator, and as a result what we have is a wildly out of balance predator-prey relationship. In nature, prey defenses work to keep things in balance, but there really isn't any prey defense against humans. We can wipe out anything if we wish to, and that is why we must be responsible. I think everyone here recognizes that, though. A more conservation minded collection of outdoorsmen I doubt you are likely to find. If you want to argue that it is ethically wrong to harvest anything unless you need it, I think it is a valid point, but I also think it is unrealistic to expect people to do so. Like it or not, nature is harsh and sometimes cruel, and we are still a part of that cycle. I don't hunt anymore for similar reasons, but I still keep fish from time to time to enjoy. These are MY choices, and I don't necessarily expect others to feel like I do. As for mounting things, while I have no desire, people keep them for recognition of their perceived achievements. I suppose that's one of the things I like about musky fishing. You can catch a big musky and either get a photo or replica and still let it go. With a "trophy" buck, you can't. I don't think it has anything to do with "honoring an animal" or "communion with nature". That sounds nice, but we all know it's about male status and recognition from your buddies. I don't see the need for keeping a real fish for a trophy, and I'm sure most people on here would agree. I will say that a replica doesn't look as good as a real mount though. No matter, as a picture is all I want. This is, of course, excluding a state or world record. After all, I AM a guy. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | esoxaddict - 1/2/2012 3:41 PM
Now if I could just figure out how to get the Y bones out of 'em without mangling the crap outta the fillets...
spend some time with Terry next time you're at AML
Sam ... holy-crap man, you speak the way you write?? ... trying to remember the last time i used thwart in a sentence ... somebody give you a thesaurus for Christmas? |
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| I practice catch and release of all fish, but I'm considering eating some panfish next season. I have always, and will continue to, release muskies due to their rarity, growth rate, et cetera. My main reason for not eating other species is just laziness. After spending a day on the water I don't want the added hassle of cleaning fish, especially on week-long trips. It's much easier to just throw them back and eat a hot dog.
On a tangent, I realize that pike are much more abundant than muskies, but what are their growth rates? In other words, how many years does it take one to be in the mid-30s? I'll always have the same catch and release mentality for them, as well, as they're special to me. That feeling has been diminished since making a few trips to Canada and being able to boat numerous fish with relative ease, but they still hold a supremacy over other fish in my mind. |
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Posts: 3147
| its genetics too not all pike get big if they live long,,If a man lives to be 100 he dosent end up 7 ft tall
thats why darkhouse wants cass open so they can go after the big native genes pike, theyve wiped out the lakes they were on
Edited by happy hooker 1/2/2012 4:35 PM
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Posts: 1529
| Man its a different world then when i grew up. |
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| Sled, nah, writing doesn't show all the long pauses. BTW, now I'm going to have to check the freezer for any stray fillets. That meal description sounded pretty good. |
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| Sam Vimes - 1/2/2012 3:56 PM
If you want to argue that it is ethically wrong to harvest anything unless you need it, I think it is a valid point...
Then by that logic, no one should ever kill any animal. We can all survive off corn, beans and carrots...you know, living things that don't have feelings or cute little eyes looking up at you. If I may, I'll assume that no one on this forum is literally starving. Sadly, I may be wrong, but let's speak in generalities. So no one here "needs" to go kill a deer or a perch. We choose to...for fun, for organic health reasons, for the trophy, whatever. Then that means that not a single person here should pull one single fish through the ice this winter and eat it. If it's ethically wrong to harvest anything we don't "need," then we should all be eating yogurt and tofu since no one here is living in a cave or hand to mouth. And for those of us who do stock our freezers, have we sinned against your ideals if we kill two deer and only "need" 1.5? Anything we don't "need" to eat, but do is ethically wrong? Are you serious?
I don't think it has anything to do with "honoring an animal" or "communion with nature". That sounds nice, but we all know it's about male status and recognition from your buddies.
How the hell do you know how I commune with nature? Speak for yourself. Sure there's pride involved. Absolutely! There should be. But if you take your son to his baseball game and he hits a homerun and you're proud as hell, does that negate your relationship and time spent with your son? Different, but the same. You can be proud and have feeling and emotion invested at another level. Just because I'm proud of my kill and display it doesn't mean I don't respect it on it's own merit. I think it's far more respectful to hang a deer head on the wall than it is to throw it in the dumpster. Ever listen to Ted Nugent talk about killing an animal? Yeah, old Ted can get a bit out there sometimes, but I really feel the way he does when it comes to killing something. To me sure it's a trophy but it goes beyond that. It's a time and a place that I stepped into the food chain and did my part for nature and she did her part for me. I bet alot of guys here feel that same way. Does that sound a little nutty? Well I guess for a guy that thinks the kill is all about what his buddies think, and his male status, it probably does. |
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| Sam Vimes - 1/2/2012 6:00 PM
Sled, nah, writing doesn't show all the long pauses. BTW, now I'm going to have to check the freezer for any stray fillets. That meal description sounded pretty good.
Heck, right here you're admitting to possibly having fillets that you may or may not know you have. Would it be safe to assume that you don't "need" them if they're "stray" and unaccounted for? Maybe they're surplus or extra; but not "needed." Have you been unethically fishing and harvesting? |
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Location: Not far enough north! | If we are not supposed to eat animals why did God make them out of meat? |
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| *Sigh* Did you read all of my post or just not understand it? Yes, by that logic you can make the point. You just explained it. You see the logic, that doesn't mean you or I are going to practice it. Understand? Think of this as a philosophical discussion. I am defending his right to make the claim and that it isn't ridiculous....just unrealistic. Does that mean I'm going to not eat a fish or lecture you for doing so? NO! Slow down and re-read what I wrote. You don't have to agree with his post, but you just illustrated the line of thought behind it and that the point is valid even though idealistic.
Wow, you totally didn't get what I was saying did you? I wrote: " I also think it is unrealistic to expect people to do so. Like it or not, nature is harsh and sometimes cruel, and we are still a part of that cycle." (Meaning it is natural to hunt things for food. Remember when I said we were predators?) "I don't hunt anymore for similar reasons, but I still keep fish from time to time to enjoy. These are MY choices, and I don't necessarily expect others to feel like I do". Meaning I do not like the taste of venison, therefore, I don't feel comfortable with myself for killing an animal that I'm not planning on eating. Get it? I also never ridiculed anyone for mounting an animal. I tried to explain why they do it. Yes, alot of things males of every species do is for status. I never said anything about "the kill", I was addressing the keeping of trophies. Your attempt at a refutation is a perfect example of the Straw Man fallacy. If you re-read what I said a little slower, I think you'll see we aren't really at odds with each other. Also, yelling "Ridiculous!" isn't a very effective riposte.
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