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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Are you now allowed to have live bait in MI sanctioned tournaments? |
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| Don't know how it is everywhere, but as long as you bring it up...the Milwaukee Chapter of Muskies Inc. is having their tournament this Saturday. It's called the Pewaukee Musky Classic (even though you can now choose between three area musky lakes to fish) and it does not allow for live bait. On the other hand, it is always a whole lot of fun, lot's of prizes for everybody at the dinner afterward, rods for the young anglers who fish it, just trophies (no cash prizes) keeps it really friendly and I never miss it. Marty Forman |
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Live bait is not allowed in MI "sacntioned" tournaments.
JS |
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| Live bait is not allowed in MI "sacntioned" tournaments. JS it strikes me as slightly ironic that the "mother ship" (don't call it the International anymore) allows members to register fish caught on live bait in the Llunge Log, features columns in the newsletter extolling the virtues of live bait, heck they even allow registration of kept fish in the Llunge Log...but if a Chapter wants to allow the use of live bait in a club tourney they can't do so? classic example of a top-heavy organization mistakenly trying to dictate ethics to the member chapters. instead of saying "all fish must be successfully released" they try to determine allowable fishing techniques? what's next? no bucktails??? those decisions should be left in the hands of the Chapter boards who are organizing their local events. |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Is live bait allowed in any muskie tournament out there? |
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Live bait isn't allowed in tournament situations for the simple reason that people may very well choose to let a fish eat the bait longer than they should, because there is money/prizes on the line.
It has nothing to do with dictating ethics or other such thoughts.
It's a simple rule with a simple concept.
JS |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Muskie Treats - 5/11/2011 8:49 AM
Is live bait allowed in any muskie tournament out there?
Yes |
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| Is live bait allowed in any muskie tournament out there? the Ironman allows it. successfully. lots of smaller, off-the-radar tournies allow it too. Live bait isn't allowed in tournament situations for the simple reason that people may very well choose to let a fish eat the bait longer than they should, because there is money/prizes on the line. John, that line of reasoning suggests that MI shouldn't allow it as a "sanctioned" technique in the Member's Only Contest either, since people can and do win prizes. i suppose i just find it odd to promote it in one context but dictate against it in another. there are lots of ways to hurt fish in tournaments for the sake of money regardless of what technique people use to catch the fish...individual ethics will always be the only and best protection against it. really, my point is that the rule should be determined by the local club, in accordance with ethical practices and local regulations. CCMI has considered a fall event in Madison, where one of the appeals would be a strong live bait bite...but it couldn't be "official"? silly. |
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This rule has been in place for years. Before the advent and acceptance of quick-strike rigs when single hook rigs were the norm.
I think you are reading way to much into this. If this were a major issue within the membership than perhaps the rule would be changed, but it obviously isn't.
JS
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Posts: 108
| I think MI is always looking for active participants and board members. If you feel strongly about how the organization is operating today... I would encourage one to become involved and try to suggest these changes at the International MI level. I do not disagree with any comments here... but it really doesn't do any good to voice ideas here and not through MI now does it.
I will step down from my soapbox now.
Brett Waldera
Edited by Brett Waldera 5/11/2011 4:52 PM
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| I would encourage one to become involved and try to suggest these changes at the International MI level. I do not disagree with any comments here... but it really doesn't do any good to voice ideas here and not through MI now does it. this forum is a place where ideas are exchanged and opinions expressed. when i look at the folks who have commented in this thread, i see a whole bunch of people who are board members/officers of Muskies Inc at the local club level, myself included. it is possible to both discuss the issues here AND take an active in role in the organization. it's also healthy to be self-critical of an organization we love.
Edited by lambeau 5/11/2011 6:21 PM
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Fair enough.
For the most part all I ever see are people starting posts with criticisms of MI. Those things could be discussed in-house between members of the organization rather then on non-member forums where people are bombarded with negative comments about MI and how it is run.
Kind of hard to get people fired up about MI when the majority of press they get is negative.
JS |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | The reason I am asking is because there is a MI club that is holding a tournament soon and is advertising the use of live bait. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The majority of the press MI gets here from OFM is certainly not negative. Nor will it be. Do a search.
If the public has an improper perception of MI, then it's up to MI to correct that. Can't do that in private. I'd bet many (MANY) of the MI members who own a computer visit here. |
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The majority of press MI gets probably isn't negative here or on other boards.
But there is a fair amount of MI bashing that goes on which would seem to me to be something that should be taken up with MI directly and not put out there for everyone to see and possibly misinterpret.
Much like people who write posts complaing about a certain rod or reel manufacturerer. They are usually told to take up the problem with the company, not to bad-mouth products on the internet as that can lead to an unfair perception of readers towards said product.
Complaining about the leadership of MI on a public forum does not lead to anything positive in regards to the organization itself or to it's public perception IMHO.
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John Skarie |
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Posts: 123
| MI also allows anglers to register fish to the Lunge Log that they caught on catch and release only waters. Is that also wrong of them? There is always going to be some "grey area" I suppose. If a Muskies Inc. Chapter is advertising a tournament that allows live bait then I suspect they are doing so due to ignorance of the By-Laws and Policies of MI, and not knowingly disregarding them. |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I have been a member of Muskies, Inc for over ten years now and here are my observations:
1. MI is made up of a diverse group of people who all love Muskie fishing.
2. There are differing opinions on many issues within MI.
3. Many MI members work very hard to better Muskie fishing throughout the entire Muskie range.
4. Most of the MI members are really nice people. Of course, there are always a few in any organization that can be "difficult" at times.
5. Muskie fishing would not be the same without MI.
6. MI is not perfect and neither is any other organization.
7. You decide at what level you wish to be involved in MI. No one there will "make" you do anything.
I think some people have come to expect way to much out of MI while at the same time either not understanding or not appreciating how much MI has done to better Muskie fishing. We simply would not have the fishing we do today without MI and the hard work of so many MI members.
I am a member of North Metro and have also gone to a few of the Twin Cities chapter meetings. The truth is that I have never seen a nicer group of people in my life. Not at church, not at work, and not in any school. Nowhere have I seen a nicer group of people. My only wish is that I had more time to get involved in MI. Between my high-pressure job, coaching basketball and soccer, and church, it has been very hard the past few years to even get to the meetings. Yeah, I am way to busy - just like so many others.
Just my experience. |
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Location: Yahara River Chain | Herb_b - 5/12/2011 8:49 AM
The truth is that I have never seen a nicer group of people in my life.
Amen and pass the tatar sauce.  |
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| lambeau - 5/11/2011 9:55 AM
Is live bait allowed in any muskie tournament out there? the Ironman allows it. successfully. lots of smaller, off-the-radar tournies allow it too. Live bait isn't allowed in tournament situations for the simple reason that people may very well choose to let a fish eat the bait longer than they should, because there is money/prizes on the line. John, that line of reasoning suggests that MI shouldn't allow it as a "sanctioned" technique in the Member's Only Contest either, since people can and do win prizes. i suppose i just find it odd to promote it in one context but dictate against it in another. there are lots of ways to hurt fish in tournaments for the sake of money regardless of what technique people use to catch the fish...individual ethics will always be the only and best protection against it. really, my point is that the rule should be determined by the local club, in accordance with ethical practices and local regulations. CCMI has considered a fall event in Madison, where one of the appeals would be a strong live bait bite...but it couldn't be "official"? silly.
The spirit of the lunge log was to get data of muskie catches 1st and the competition came later as an incentive for many who wouldn't register their fish otherwise to do so. Just giving a history lesson and nothing else with this comment. |
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Posts: 3147
| Love MI
but some people take that members only contest WAYYYYYYYY too serious to the point where Ive seen people target muskies before the season just to get a picture they can submit after opener, not a theory seen it,,,do people think their really going to get famous forum the MI members only contest???????? |
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| The spirit of the lunge log was to get data of muskie catches 1st and the competition came later as an incentive for many who wouldn't register their fish otherwise to do so. Just giving a history lesson and nothing else with this comment. the Llunge Log contest ship sailed a long time ago and due our unfortunate limitations in the area of time travel, we're forced to deal with what the case actually is now. the policies of the not-the-International are inconsistent in this regard when they allow livebait for one kind of contest but prohibit it in another. this isn't surprising, nor do i mean to make it sound like some huge problem. in fact it's common when organizations grow and evolve that some little-used policies don't get updated. if the no livebait at sanctioned tournaments policy was put in place due to the prevalence of kill rigs in the past, perhaps it's time to revisit it in an era of quick-strike rigs and better state regulartions? i might make a motion at our next board meeting to instruct our RVP to introduce such a motion at the next not-the-International board meeting. then we'll see what it's really about... |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I spoke with (MI President-elect) Jay Zahn about this thread last night at our chapter meeting in Green Bay. In fact, we read some of the posts together. He will be sworn-in at the Spring board meeting, next weekend (5/21). I am hoping to be there, and I will also try to bring this issue to the attention of one or two other MI executive committee members before the meeting. I will ask them to clarify MI's position, in light of the recent developments in quick-strike rigs. To be honest, I was not aware of the organization's policy in this regards--so this thread has been a learning experience for me as well.
As for MI's leadership in general, I would argue vehemently that it has taken a VERY positive trend in the last decade. I've only gotten re-involved with the organization about 5 years ago after a hiatus for many years, so I cannot comment on the direction the organization was headed prior to about year 2000. But we've had leadership that has been very forward-thinking since I've been involved--and for several years before that, from what I've learned since becoming active again in 2006. Is it perfect yet? Probably not. But I think it's getting closer. I am not trying to blow sunshine around here, but I'm just stating my own opinion based upon personal experience as the VP of Research/Fisheries/Youth for two years, and an on-going member of the MI research committee.
Anyway, please be aware that the top level of MI does in fact know of this thread, and (more importantly) the question/concern it represents. I am sure the matter will get due attention next weekend; because I've discussed it with Jay myself, only last night. Mr. Worrall is absolutely correct in his assertion that many MI members frequent these forums, so rest-assured that the word gets around. This is especially true for the members on the executive committees.
TB |
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| I for one would not support using live bait in tournament situations and as an RVP and member of the MI tournament comittee would vote against it.
For one, are we now going to inspect peoples live-bait rigs? With the influx of invasive species and diseases it makes sense to not have those issues to deal with as well.
I also firmly believe that some people would not use a quick-strike rig the way it's intended to be used when money is on the line.
I see no reason to change policy now after our tournaments have been successful and accepted by members and non-members alike.
JS |
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Posts: 462
Location: Syracuse, Indiana | The origination of this thread involves a flier for a club outing. The event was originally to be a tournament, but was changed to be a chapter outing. When editing the flier, yours truly missed the word "tournament". My bad. I was not a part of the MI board when the tournament policy was implemented prohibiting live bait. I suspect the policy was part "kill rig" opposition, part a perception that artificial use emphasizes angler skill, and part something else(?). If there were substantial opposition to the policy, the matter would have been raised through proper channels some time ago. Perhaps now is the time to revisit the debate. That decision is one for the board. |
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| Guest - 5/12/2011 10:18 AM I for one would not support using live bait in tournament situations and as an RVP and member of the MI tournament comittee would vote against it. For one, are we now going to inspect peoples live-bait rigs? With the influx of invasive species and diseases it makes sense to not have those issues to deal with as well. I also firmly believe that some people would not use a quick-strike rig the way it's intended to be used when money is on the line. I see no reason to change policy now after our tournaments have been successful and accepted by members and non-members alike. JS i say this with genuine respect for your personal beliefs, John, but your statement here represents what i see as a big part of the problem. is Muskies Inc an association of member clubs who share a broad set of values and guiding principals, or is it a centralized organization that decides the values and policies which the chapters must follow? your statement indicates that you view it as the latter, and i believe that's the source of some of the simmering resentment towards MI within the member clubs who tend to look at things on a local level first.
imho, on an issue like tournament rules, it should be up to the sponsoring member club to determine what's allowable. Muskies Inc can and should offer guidance or suggestions, but at a certain point it's time for them to trust the chapters to do what's right rather than worrying about whether or not someone's going to "inspect live-bait rigs". the leaders and active members of the local chapters are engaged and ethical folks. trust them. ie., this is much less an issue about people's beliefs about tournaments or live-bait rigs (some would argue strongly for no tournaments at all), and more an issue about who should be making those decisions: the chapters or the organization.
Edited by lambeau 5/12/2011 11:36 AM
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I'm only stating my opinion on the subject.
If it came to a vote, than every chapter would get to vote.
If the majority of the membership felt that live bait should be allowed in tournaments it would and could happen.
So I disagree with the sentiment that a small portion of MI is forcing this issue down on the rest of the membership.
I also personally don't think it's that big of an issue. As tournament director for Fargo Moorhead from 1998- 2003 we never had a member or non-member complain about the no live bait rule. As chairmen of the Chapter Challunge since 2003 or 04 I've never had a chapter or member bring it up either.
Bring it up to a vote and that will decide how the membership feels.
JS
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| "imho, on an issue like tournament rules, it should be up to the sponsoring member club to determine what's allowable."
For the sake of argument if a chapter sponsored a catch and kill tournament that should be ok? While I'm with you on about 95% of issues that affect the chapter should be handled by the chapter, I do believe that a set of MI core principles need to be set in stone. If there's not some set ideal that are to be held the organization as a whole loses some credibility. There has to be some consistency in the organization or else a few chapters can give the entire organization a bad name. There is already is animosity towards the international from the chapters because of the varying regional "conservation ethics" that are viewed as acceptable in one part of the country and not in others. It's a tough deal, but people look at organizations like this through a wide angle lens sometimes and what others do 100's of miles away can hurt a local chapter who is doing the right thing.
In my personal opinion the organization needs to stand behind the best fisheries science available and stick to it. That may make the organization unpopular with some, but in the long term taking the high road the organization would be beyond reproach and have more credibility.
For the record I wouldn't even say that this point of debate should be included in the core principles. |
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| I think letting the individual clubs determine rules like this could be a slippery slope. If this were to be the case what is the point of a "Parent" Organization if decisions like this are left to the club?
There should be guiding principles that come down from the top and the clubs should adhere to. I think the clubs should all have a say on what those principles are, so a vote would be the best way to get that voice heard.
There are very difficult questions to answer here though because what is "right" for one club or area may not be for another.
But there should be no grey area for these rules. If MI doesnt deem it appropriate for live bait in tournies, then these fish should not be allowable for recognition in any other form either IMO. It is sending a mixed message which I agree with others who have commented. |
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| i agree that the organization should rightfully provide a set of guiding principals. what those principals are, and what expectations are placed on the local chapters is a worthwhile subject for discussion. it's the shared values that unite the chapters, and there's much more in common than what's different between the various locals and each of us as members. i can't imagine a chapter hosting a "kill" tourney, so that's a bit of a red herring as an example, and if they did it would be appropriate for the President to have a frank conversation with the leaders of that chapter. live bait isn't allowed, but trolling is alright? there are parts of the country where trolling isn't even legal, but it's allowed within MI's tournament guidelines? in those same areas live bait is legal but not allowed in MI tournaments? approving or disapproving specific techniques goes well beyond providing "guiding principals" in my opinion. i appreciate the fact that this kind of discussion can happen in a respectful manner. thanks for sharing your viewpoints, it helps me consider my own.
Edited by lambeau 5/12/2011 2:12 PM
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| lambeau - 5/12/2011 2:07 PM
live bait isn't allowed, but trolling is alright? there are parts of the country where trolling isn't even legal, but it's allowed within MI's tournament guidelines? in those same areas live bait is legal but not allowed in MI tournaments? approving or disapproving specific techniques goes well beyond providing "guiding principals" in my opinion. i appreciate the fact that this kind of discussion can happen in a respectful manner. thanks for sharing your viewpoints, it helps me consider my own.
Are you saying that trolling is allowed in tourneys where it isnt permissable outside of the tourney?
I have a pretty major problem with that if that is true. |
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