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Posts: 531
| I have seen this thread many times, and each time the topic gets brought up, the thread goes to gear ratio of the reel. Each time i keep thinking about that, people are putting the emphasize on the wrong area, the gear ratio. I want to show you that gear ratio is only a small part of the equation of pulling big blade easily, and i believe that gear ratio people should be least concerned about.
I am going to guess the resistance a dc10 has is 3lbs at med. speed. That was a guess, the number really does not matter for what i am trying to show.
So the work we are doing is pulling 3lbs.
The reel pulling this bait was 3 main components that we need to worry about that have effect on pullin in the bait are
1. reel handle length, this is where our input has the effect.
2. Spool diameter, the bigger the spool dia. the more line retrieved per rev.
3. Gear ratio. how many time the spool spins around for every turn of the handle.
Say we have two make believe reels, both have the same length crank handle
1. 1:1 ratio reel with very large spool dia. has 24inch per rev retrieve.
2. 10:1 ratio reel with very small spool dia. has 24 inch per retrieve
Both reels bring in the same amount of line for each turn of the crank handle, with the same resistance from the bait (3lbs) the effort from the human side would be the same. This example shows that the spool diameter and gear ratio of these two reels offset, even through there were extreme opposites. The gear ratio made no difference in this example. If you want a reel to pull blades easily out of the box, get one with a lower line retrieval per crank.
There is going to be trade offs, if you want a reel that will pull blade easily then get one with a lower line retrieval rate, just know if you want to burn them you will be doing much more cranking in rpms. The turns will be easier but you will be doing more of them, that can be tiring also.
Long crank handles will make your effort be less, but will increase the total movement of your crank to be more. In other words you will have to move your arm more per crank (total inches, the circumference of the circle made from the crank) You will have an easier movement, just be doing more of it, to achieve the same outcome.
I have told you about crank handle length, there is another item you can control about your reel. It would be spool dia. if you want an easier pulling reel for big blades. Put less line on your reel, simple as that. That will change the amount of line picked up for each turn of the crank handle. You will be doing more cranking with less effort, but that might save you from having to buy another reel. It really works great, and it is cheapest way to achieve an easier pull.
Gear ratio is the one thing with our reels we have no way of changing ( yes some can but i am talking easily by the masses). Because buying gears and changing them out isn’t a very economical way of getting a easier pull. I feel people should not worry about gear ratio as much. The Spool dia, and crank handle length are both easily changed why focus on gear ratio?
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Can U explain why a ABU 6500 with a 5.3:1 gears and a Shimano Calcutta TE with 5.0:1, I think both have about 25" line pickup for both reels, the TE will pull in a DCG10 with ease and a ABU 6500 takes alot more effort ???? both have the same gear ratio and I think the spool Dia. is the same to. |
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Posts: 531
| Pike, i did a quick look the abu has a 25.5 inch per rev. 2% higher retrieve. I think we all can agree that isnt not a huge factor, but still somthing to consider.
You can not have the same spool dia. and same pick up with different gear ratios. Impossible.
Are the crank handles the same length? Liek i wrote in original post, that is a huge factor in the overall ease of turning the crank, but your doing more of it.
You have also brought up another great point i left out in my original thinking. Internal forces of the reels, there is no way i can take in account the internal condition of anyones reel. You might have a super tuned calcuta te tuned by pikemaster that has very low internal friction and you might have an old worn out abu that has cement in the gears and bearings that has the cast control cranked all the tight.
So inlight of this new information another factor in this is the ridigdty of the the components and internal friction of the system as a whole.
Pike can you agree with this: (two different reels) To bring in a bait 24 inches with one turn of a handle, the work done in the same. Work= Force x Distance. Work being pulling in the bait, force is effort pushing the crank handle, distance is how many inches your hands travels to make one complete turn.
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Shimano has what is called HG gearing, here is how it works, The Abu 6500 has a main gear that is 30mm in Dia. and the TE has a main gear that is 38mm in Dia, so on the ABU with a main gear that is only 30mm in Dia the Pinion is alot smaller in Dia. then the TE pinion gear, so the TE will have more power then the 6500. So I see it as 4 factors that make a reel have power and high line pickup, 1 - gear ratio, 2 - spool Dia. 3 - Handle lengh, 4 - Dia of main gear and pinion. That is Y a Trinidad with a high ratio of 6.3:1 will have gears that are 42mm is Dia, and a very large Dia spool and a 105mm long handle can bring in 46" of line pickup and have power to spare. |
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Posts: 209
| I'm glad somebody finally brought this up. I think about this all the time, but I didn't know how many guys on here really thought in terms of physics.
And yes, internal friction is a big part of it. Higher end reels have more solid components, so there's significantly less flex on the inside of reel. Less flex means less friction, and less friction means more of the force you're putting into the reel is transferred into the bait. A good analogy is throwing a pounder with a light rod. When the rod flexes too much, it feels like you're working harder. With a stiff rod, the bait slings right out there. Same goes for reels. If the gears are flexing, it'll feel like you're doing more work turning the crank than if the gears are solid.
TE's pull in big blades easily because they have extremely solid internal components and a longer handle than a C3. And like anzomcik said, handle length is one of the most significant factors.
I was thinking about this stuff a couple weeks ago, so I did a bit of an experiment. I took a Saltist 30 and casually reeled for 10 seconds while counting the number of cranks I did, and I did the same with an Abu c3 6600. Even though the crank is shorter on the c3 (much shorter actually), the number of cranks I did while reeling at a casual speed was almost identical. My theory is that with a short handle, your hand has to turn around a tighter circle to complete a revolution than with a long handle. Think of a car driving in a circle. It's a lot harder to go around a really tight circle than a wide one. Same goes for turning the handle crank. This is why a Trinidad 16 with 46 inches per crank is so good for burning blades. The long handle gives you good leverage against the super high line pick-up, and as I explained previously, long handles don't really impede how many cranks per second you can do. So if you reel at the same pace with a TN16 as with a 400TE, the effort will be about the same, but the bait will be moving a lot faster.
So when it comes down to it, the three things that really matter are line retrieval, handle length, and the rigidness of the internal components of the reel. |
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Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | Pikemaster, how big is the main gear on the Toro? I found that it works just fine for double tens as long as Im not trying to burn them.
Peter |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | WI Skis - 4/16/2011 3:55 PM
Pikemaster, how big is the main gear on the Toro? I found that it works just fine for double tens as long as Im not trying to burn them.
Peter
The Toro has a very large MAIN GEAR 39mm in Dia so the pinion is very large to.
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Physics I know nothing about |
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Posts: 531
| PIKEMASTER - 4/16/2011 4:43 PM
Shimano has what is called HG gearing, here is how it works, The Abu 6500 has a main gear that is 30mm in Dia. and the TE has a main gear that is 38mm in Dia, so on the ABU with a main gear that is only 30mm in Dia the Pinion is alot smaller in Dia. then the TE pinion gear, so the TE will have more power then the 6500. So I see it as 4 factors that make a reel have power and high line pickup, 1 - gear ratio, 2 - spool Dia. 3 - Handle lengh, 4 - Dia of main gear and pinion. That is Y a Trinidad with a high ratio of 6.3:1 will have gears that are 42mm is Dia, and a very large Dia spool and a 105mm long handle can bring in 46" of line pickup and have power to spare.
Your number 4 in your list is the same as your number 1, gear ratio is the compairision of the gears in the system and how they relate.
Example i have a drive gear that is 1" dia and driven gear thats 2" dia. ratio 2:1
I havd a drive gear that is 3" dia. and a drive gear that is 6" dia. ratio 2:1
Same thing, only difference would be weight (needing more torqu to turn) but again i feel that factor is not significant in this case.
So to revise you list,
1. crank handle length, more torque for given effort, but will have to swing the handle a longer distance
2. Line take up per revolution, this is a combo of gear ratio and spool dia. Remember spool dia. is ever changing in this system as the further you cast the lower line take up you have, because the line leaving your spool will make it smaller meaning less dia on the spool, so more power less retrieve.
3. Internal forces in the system, power need to move the system over its own friction
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Posts: 209
| Well its physics in the sense that leverage and friction are physics. Believe it or not, I've heard numerous people try to convince me that spool diameter and handle length have nothing to do with a reel's crank power. |
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Posts: 531
| I started this thread to inform people who are buying a reel should not be baising their decision on gear ratio alone. I am glad to see people have also though about the topic also and hope this would help someone out in a decision on buying a reel. |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Anzomcik,
It's funny, I brought something similar to this up a while back and it seemed like a lot of people chimed in with opinions and theories, and we never really settled on an answer. I agree that gear ratio means nothing, that it mostly boils down to line pickup per crank and handle length. I'm sure internal friction has an effect too but I can't see it being the main factor.
A few guys talked about the SIZE of the gears making a huge difference but could never explain why that would make a difference. The SIZE of the gears doesn't change the amount of work being done (boils down to gear ratio and spool size), so unless that can have an effect on internal friction I just don't see the size of the gears changing much. My guess is that larger gears can have thicker teeth cut into them, and may be more durable.
My guess is the TE comes with a longer than average handle, which helps a lot. I'm sure the TE is also very smooth, which I think can give the sense of pulling easier.
I have been running Okuma Indurons the last few years. The fairly short stock handle on them made pulling a single #8 a chore. After putting a power handle on them I could pull 10's all day without feeling like it was work at all. A very obvious difference in the work I felt was based on handle length and maybe grip size.
What do all the fast reels that guys use for buring have? Long handles with big grips. I think they have big line pickup, but the long leverage handles make it easier to turn the handle.
Will be interesting to see where this thread goes.
Tucker |
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | curleytail - 4/16/2011 8:09 PM ...gear ratio means nothing... C'mon... nothing? Like... zero? zilch? nada? All we need to do is put a big, long handle on any reel in the world and all of a sudden we're going to have a reel that will burn Super Models with ease?? I'm no physics major but something just doesn't add up. I'm more curious right now than anything because let's face it, we'd all love to burn DC10's / 13's with ease... but not all of us have a Trinidad budget. ** EDITED: spelling/grammar. |
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Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | Only two specs make a significant difference in perceived effort: Handle length and inches retrieved per crank. Friction is a factor, but let's be honest, in high end reels with properly lubed bearings and gear teeth, it's similar in most reels. Gear ratio means nothing by itself. Bigger main gears and pinions only spread out the force over a larger area of the teeth, which then increases the service life of the gear surface. Oversized gearsets are a nice feature, but they don't affect, in any way shape or form, how hard it is to retrieve a bait.
To simplify what a reel does during a retrieve, imagine 30" per crank as the circumference of a circle. Every time that circle rotates, you have rotated the handle one time. The spool itself has actually turned a few times, due to the gear ratio, but that doesn't matter. Now imagine the circle that the reel handle forms as you rotate it. A handle of 4" in diameter would create a circle of 12.57" or so, which is 4 times Pi (3.1415.....). You are moving your hand 12.57" and moving the bait 30". If you double the size of the handle to 8", and change nothing else, you end up with a circumference of 25.132". This evens out the distance your hand moves compared to the distance the bait moves, which gives you an easier retrieve compared to the 4" handle with a 12.57" circumference. 30/12.57=2.39 whereas 30/25.132=1.19. The lower the number, the easier it is to retrieve. Gear ratios are just a step in the equation that can be skipped if you are given the retrieve per crank.
Hope this helps. |
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Posts: 531
| I believe what curlytail means by "gear ratio means nothing" is when you grab a reel that has x.x:1 ratio printed on its side, that information really does not tell you alot, meaning nothing. Line pick up per crank is what counts, like i said earlier gear ratio is only 1/2 the equation for line pick up per crank, and line pick up per crank is what is felt through your crank handle, not gear ratio
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | Wow.... actually, that's awesome!
OK... simplifying it in that manner DOES make sense. But now I want to do an experiment and see this put into action by myself.  How does one go about finding a "larger" handle for their reel? Has anyone else tried this? Let's say you find the absolute WORST reel for pulling double 10's. Measure the stock/standard handle... and then find your power handle, measure it, utilize the circumference equation that knooter mentioned above and see what it's like.
More importantly, if manufacturer's simply need to put a gigantic handle on their reels (while still being ergonomic)... why bother touting the gear ratio of their product if, in actuality, it means nothing. |
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Posts: 531
| PSYS, this would be a cheap solution previously mentioned. Rather than buying a power handle, spool your reel up to half or 3/4 capacity. This would make your spool smaller in diameter, and make it easier to reel in hard pulling baits. You would have to crank the reel handle faster, but there would be less stress on the reel itself.
Also i hope you are joking about the lookin for power handles... they are sold in many places |
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | You didn't answer my question about why manufacturer's tout so many fancy-advertising campaigns about gear ratio if it really does mean nothing... =)
And here's another question, and I'm asking not to be a smart azz but because I honestly am curious.
Revo Toro 60 5.4:1... a decent reel for pullin' in double 10's. burning them? hardly. but it works, right?
Revo Toro 60 Winch 4.6:1... again, a decent reel for pullin' in double 10's and tremendously easier than the aforementioned reel. If I'm not mistaken the handle of both reels are identical. So... if the only difference between these two reels is the fact that they have different gear ratios, why is it easier to pull in double 10's with the reel that has the 4.6:1 gear ratio than it is for the reel that has the 5.4:1 gear ratio. I mean, if gear ratios mean absolutely nothing. =) |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | The larger Dia. that the main gear is, the larger in Dia. the pinion and so the pinion has about 4-5 teeth that are engaged in the main gear so the pinion has more contact on the main gear, on a main gear like a ABU 6500 or a Induron that has a very small main gear 30mm in Dia. now the pinion gear is smaller and has only maybe 2-3 teeth that are engaged in the main gear, so if U put your Power Handle on a reel like that, with only 2-3 teeth taking all the force to move the main gear, the pinion will wear out very fast, and will sound like a coffee grinder. |
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Posts: 209
| PSYS - 4/16/2011 9:27 PM
You didn't answer my question about why manufacturer's tout so many fancy-advertising campaigns about gear ratio if it really does mean nothing... =)
And here's another question, and I'm asking not to be a smart azz but because I honestly am curious.
Revo Toro 60 5.4:1... a decent reel for pullin' in double 10's. burning them? hardly. but it works, right?
Revo Toro 60 Winch 4.6:1... again, a decent reel for pullin' in double 10's and tremendously easier than the aforementioned reel. If I'm not mistaken the handle of both reels are identical. So... if the only difference between these two reels is the fact that they have different gear ratios, why is it easier to pull in double 10's with the reel that has the 4.6:1 gear ratio than it is for the reel that has the 5.4:1 gear ratio. I mean, if gear ratios mean absolutely nothing. =)
The line pick-up per crank in the Winch is smaller, giving you better leverage over the bait. Just to clarify, if two reels have identical spool sizes, then gear ratio means something. Without knowing the spool size comparisons, gear ratio means very little. Gear ratio means "nothing" in the sense that a reel with a 1:1 gear ratio that gets 30 inches per crank (keep in mind that'd be a huge spool) will have less crank power than a reel with a 5:1 gear ratio that gets 20 inches per crank.
Manufacturers use it as a selling point because that's what people are most familiar with. I honestly don't know how many inches per crank my bass reels get, but I know that a 6.9:1 bass reel is fast, respectively. I think manufacturers will start being more upfront about line retrieval in upcoming years because it's becoming so much more commonplace for a buyer (especially in muskie fishing) to pay attention to that aspect than to gear ratio. |
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| My two cents Worth!
Just a few facts on Spool diameter vs gear ratio!
Line retrieval rate is a product of two factors spool speed and spool diameter.
An example a reel with a 6:1 gear ratio and a 2" diameter spool vs. A reel with a 5:1 gear ratio and a 3" diameter spool. In this case the "faster" 6:1 ratio reel will pickup 37" of line for each turn of the reel handle. The "slower" 5:1 reel however will retrieve approximately 47" of line for each turn of the reel handle. So in terms of how fast the two reels can pickuip line the "slower" 5:1 reel actually is about 27% faster than the 6:1 reel. Don't be fooled by gear ratios - they're only a small part of the overall performance of the reel but also consider spool diameter because it has a lot to do with line retrieval rate. There are other factors also to consider a longer handle will add more torque and increase arm movement per crank, and should be less fatique on you hand and wrist. I went to a longer handle it's a lot more comfortable and easier cranking.
Scott M.
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | Calculating Line Retrieval Length with Gear Ratio:
U can calculate how much line is retrieved for any given gear ratio with this formula:
Average spool Diameter x 3.14 x ratio = length of line per turn of the handle.
4 example with a 30mm spool diameter and a 5.5:1 gear ratio
30mm x 3.14 x 5.5 = 518.1mm of line pickup which is appox 20.39 inches
No matter what a reel's gear ratio, the evaluation of the ability of the reel to retrieve line is called " IPT Inches Per Turn. This is the amount of line retrieved per turn of the reel handle. This is determined by BOTH the GEAR RATIO and the DIAMETER of the spool, there is a hidden factor, the amount of line on the spool, a full spool will increase Dia. and bring in more line as a spool with less line will have a smaller Dia. and will bring in less line. |
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Posts: 531
| PSYS - 4/16/2011 10:27 PM
You didn't answer my question about why manufacturer's tout so many fancy-advertising campaigns about gear ratio if it really does mean nothing... =)
An honest opinion on why manufacturers tout the fancy adds is because they know for the most part people will not read in to what is really being said. People see those words printed and think they have a value. They are using that as a marketing ploy, i would not doubt they are correct with the ratio printed on the side plate. But when you get to the nitty gritty, the vaule of gear ratio is very small part of the equation, and the one hardest to change.
Example: i seen an add on tv selling cook ware... in the add they touted they use "magnetic stainless steel for the bottom of the pans..." For most everyone that seen that must think "oh it must be good because they said it" When in fact magnetic SS is a cheap grade 400 series SS, that does rust. Also stainless steel has a very poor heat displacing property when compaired to outher materials out there, but in this case it was used for cost savings, and they used it to try to make the product look better. most people do not know the difference.
Do you understand what a few people include myself are trying to explane to you when we say the ratio is a part of line pick up, and line pick up is actually doing to the work?
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | I just want everyone to understand why the main gear size is very important in a reel. Look at any new Bass reel the main gear case is enlarged so they can install a larger main gear in Dia. so the pinion is larger and has more teeth that make contact with the main gear. If U put a Power Handle on any reel, U are putting more force on the gears and a small main gear like what is a ABU 6500 will not take that kind force to turn the main gears. Penn reels have small main gears but they are made of S.Steel both the pinion and main. Small Brass gears, it will not take much force to bend the teeth and then sound like a coffee grinder. |
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Posts: 531
| I did a little math on a few reels known
Reel IPT Ratio Cir. of spool Dia of spool
Cu300 28" 6.2:1 4.51" 1.44"
Toro60 26" 5.4:1 4.81" 1.53"
Toro60hs 30.9" 6.4:1 4.81" 1.53"
C3 25.5" 5.3:1 4.81" 1.53"
TE400 25" 5.0:1 5" 1.59"
The cir. of spool is also the amount of line taken up on 1 spool rev. Look the reel withthe lowest ratio te400 take up the most line per spool rev. look to the right, it has the largest spool dia. The diameter of the spool made up for the lower gear ratio.
On all three abus in the list they have the same spool dia. in this case ratio played a part in IPT because all other factors were the same.
The curado has the lowest line take up per spool rev in the group but has the secound highest gear ratio, this is where the spool dia being smaller made the higher ratio actually not have as great as an effect.
Look at it like this, the cu300 brings in 28" per crank, te400 brings in 25". The te is 10% slower in retrieve, but the gear ratio is around 20% slower. Spool diameter made the difference the te spool is about 10% larger.
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Posts: 531
| To add t owhat PIKE is saying the thickness of the gear is a big factor. So if your reel has smaller gears, just spool up less line! No need for a power handle, less line = more power |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | anzomcik - 4/17/2011 6:42 AM
To add t owhat PIKE is saying the thickness of the gear is a big factor. So if your reel has smaller gears, just spool up less line! No need for a power handle, less line = more power
Help me to understand this one, if U have 2 reels with both the same gear ratio and the same handle length retreiving in the same DCG10, one reel has a full spool of line and the other say has 50% full spool, why would the one with 50% full spool take less force to bring in ????? Both have the same DCG10 both have the same gear ratio both have the same length handle ???? only the Line Pickup will change. |
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It wouldn't take less force, or less effort, it would take more.
I use abu 7000 reels for many applications. Having the spool full means I can reel slower to achieve the same speeds than when the spool is say 1/4 empty.
Reeling slower takes less effort.
With a spool 1/2 full you would need to crank faster to achieve the same line pick-up as a full spool. You would be putting out more effort to achieve the same goal.
The thickness of your line also affects your reel performance. The thicker your line is the emptier your spool is after you cast. As you retrieve you will notice your line pick-up increases as your spool fills up and it takes less effort to bring your lure in.
JS
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Posts: 209
| PIKEMASTER: having a half full spool will decrease line retrieval like you said, which will increase your leverage over the bait. You will have to reel faster to achieve the same speed (obviously), but the force you have to put on the reel crank is less. A good way to think of it is that you can sort of turn a Revo Toro HS into a Revo Toro Winch by leaving the spool partially full. The only real difference between these two reels is line retrieval, and you could negate that difference by leaving the spool of the HS partially empty. I think it's pretty much universally agreed that the Winch has more crank power than the HS model, which supports the idea that a partially full spool will increase your torque. |
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Posts: 531
| PIKEMASTER - 4/17/2011 8:31 AM
anzomcik - 4/17/2011 6:42 AM
To add t owhat PIKE is saying the thickness of the gear is a big factor. So if your reel has smaller gears, just spool up less line! No need for a power handle, less line = more power
Help me to understand this one, if U have 2 reels with both the same gear ratio and the same handle length retreiving in the same DCG10, one reel has a full spool of line and the other say has 50% full spool, why would the one with 50% full spool take less force to bring in ????? Both have the same DCG10 both have the same gear ratio both have the same length handle ???? only the Line Pickup will change.
With your example, lets put numbers to it.
both reels have a 5:1 ratio (ease of numbers)
full spool has a spool dia of 2 inches
1/2 spool has spool diam of 1 inch.
One crank of full spool will bring in 2x3.14x5=31.4 inchs per turn
1/2 spoll will bring in about 1x3.14x5= 15.7 inches per turn
So in one turn the force needed would be half, however it will move half the distance. So you would need to turn the hadle twice as much to achieve the speed of full spool.
Let take it one step further, say the reel handle length was 3". the 3" is the radious of the circle made by the handle making the turn.
on full spool reel you will have to move the handle 18.8 inches (3" radx2= 6" diax3.14=18.4) so your hand moves 18.4 inches at (guess, i have not checked or work any equations to find real force, i am just using a numaric guess) 5 inch/ pounds of torque.
Now with the 1/2 spool reel your travel of hand would be 37.6 inches of travel, much more travel, but your force being applied is 2.5 inch/pound of torque.
For some people it is easier to do more work that is easier than a harder push for lesser amount. In the end the work done is the same. Everything here is a ratio.
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